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Hamlet

Balance Raiding in Cataclysm

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Wild Mushroom is currently applying Earth and Moon on beta. Don't remember it ever doing so.

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I'm just stoked that our mana isn't tied to Moonkin form anymore.

That's funny, I have the opposite reaction. They've kinda taken the "crit" out of my monicker as a "crit chicken" first by taking the regen out of crits in moonkin form, then the changes to Euphoria and Nature's Grace but all in all I'm not complaining really. Balance looks like it's in a much better place now than it has ever been before an expansion. There are certainly a few tweaks I wish we had, but all in all, like I said I'm not complaining.

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They've kinda taken the "crit" out of my monicker as a "crit chicken" first by taking the regen out of crits in moonkin form.

The way I read it, they really haven't completely taken regen out of crits -- they've just abstracted it a bit and made it indirect vs direct. Due to Euphoria double energy on crits, you will have on average fewer casts between Eclipse / Euphoria procs with a high crit rate than with a low crit rate. Fewer casts means less mana used between procs means better overall regen. So aside from damage, crit will still have an upward effect on our regen as well.

Pretty much, the way I look at it is:

crit = better damage directly, better damage through increased Nature's Grace uptime (Euphoria procs in non-Eclipse moving you between Eclipse faster), and better regen (fewer casts between Euphoria procs)

haste = better damage directly and better damage through increased Nature's Grace uptime (faster casts moving you between Eclipse faster).

We are still very much a crit chicken for my money.

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Euphoria got changed to a chance proc from a crit proc a few builds a go, when we got all those new toys like Shooting stars.

I just never liked that Moonkin form had so much tied into it, especially for PvP. It was/is a detriment to the spec and is just restrictive.

Crit really is a "secondary" stat - We have no on crit procs, crit buffs, regen on crits or anything really crit related. It's not surprising, considering the impact on PvP crit depression has for the spec, and the way that stats got out of control on Live atm.

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Right, neither Euphoria nor Nature's Grace has any relation with crit anymore, which was kinda what I meant. We don't even bring the crit raid buff anymore; it's been replaced with the Haste raid buff. That's a good thing I suppose considering that crit is not a very worthwhile stat for us anymore. It's only just barely better than Mastery, but as they've said Mastery is something they can easily tune up or down depending on how that pans out. There is a good chance that once they realize that Mastery is kinda garbage for us, they will tune up the conversion. It's kind of strange in a way. They worked so very hard to make stats less cap-able and therefore more appealing across the board, but the end result is a spec that almost assuredly always reforge Crit and Mastery into Haste, which is nearly twice as good as Crit and Mastery.

Also, on a PvP note, crit is no longer as bad as it was comparatively because Resilience is no longer reducing chance to crit, but that no longer makes a big difference to us really since crits no longer have an impact on our rotation.

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[EDIT - beaten to the post on the resilience point here :-)]

Resilience is being altered in Cataclysm:

"Resilience - This will only affect damage done by players and critical damage done by players. It will not impact crit chance, mana drains, or other such effects."
(I can't find the direct source for this, just a ton of people quoting it)

so there are no longer any disadvantages to crit reliant mechanics in PvP. (Crit damage is being suppressed, but you will still get the same amount of crits so crit->regen mechanics would be unaffected)

If they don't tweak the talents so we have healthy mana regen my concerns are:

- In PvE, giving away innervates is generally more interesting and fun that using it on yourself. Whilst healers demanding multiple moonkins in a raid to buff their regen would be bad, a limited scope for innervating healers would seem to be fine (i.e. allowing one healer to play in a certain way to get through a situation specifically because they have a moonkin on board). Innervates also have the potential for non-healer synergy (Innervating after Rebirthing, Innervating casters while they deliberately chew through their mana - arcane mages and locks during Metamorphosis spring to mind)

- Going oom in less than a boss fight duration even when self-Innervating seems broken. Relying on mana pots is ok, but not ideal.

- In PvP, if moonkins are forced to take all the mana talents, they miss most of the interesting PvP Utility talents, which scuppers all Blizzard's efforts to make talents interesting.

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Elemental is fine, mostly due to Rolling thunder. Clearcasting helps a bit with auto LvB crits and then Thunderstorm too.

Shadowpriests are fine as well, they just need to work SW:D into their rotation. Combined with Dispersion and Shadow fiend they're pretty self reliant.

All 3 Hybrids have specific talents that improve mana without detriment to DPS and too deep for healie specs; Rolling thunder, Masochism and for us it's Euphoria as well as Dreamstate. It just seems that Balance is harder to get right because our "Evocation" can be shared with others, mostly healers.

I'd expect them to resolve our mana issues in Dreamstate, it's the only way to make it reliable without breaking Resto regen and Innervate. I'm just stoked that our mana isn't tied to Moonkin form anymore.

I get the impression that most people posting about not having mana problems are speaking from the PTR lv80 perspective.

Try 85 heroics and get back to me. To take it up further, try PvP'ing because it might be fine and dandy for you to have some decent regen fully raid buffed but I run oom in battlegrounds in less than a minute spent on nuking. That's not acceptable.

They specifically said they didn't want offensive casters outside of arcane mages to worry about mana. Elemental shamans, mages, and warlocks have MUCH less stressful mana consumption and cost mitigation than shadow priests and moonkin.

On my shadow priests applying the 3 DoT's alone costs me 10k mana, or 1/7 of my mana bar. No, SW:D will not make up for that, and you can't definitely go spamming SW:D in PvP.

I run oom after 2 eclipse fills. If I use innervate that gives me room for 1 more eclipse. That's it. In heroic 85 gear.

On my 80 druid I copied to do Hyjal, I have zero mana problems up til ~83. That's when costs start getting out of hand and regen can't meet up. Do not take 80 regen with Dreamstate as an accurate measure of how fresh 85's will see their mana management.

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Euphoria got changed to a chance proc from a crit proc a few builds a go, when we got all those new toys like Shooting stars.

Bah, I caught the change where they fixed it to read "when outside of an Eclipse . . . crits grant double energy" and somehow missed the 24% chance while outside of an Eclipse to double energy change. With that factored in, plus the change of crit to haste on our form, I guess you can call us "haste chickens" now. With an on chance proc for Euphoria, my earlier statement would read:

crit = better damage directly, no indirect benefits.

haste = better damage directly, better damage indirectly through increased Nature's Grace uptime (faster casts plus more frequent chance to proc Euphoria double-energy both working together to move you between Eclipse procs more quickly)

Neither really equals better regen with the change -- number of casts required to cross from Eclipse to Eclipse is pretty much entirely random and not influenced by stats at this point -- not sure I really like that change. I like where double-energy procs would scale from say 20-25% chance at fresh 85 to 50+% chance raid buffed a few tiers of gear in.

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Regarding the mana issue: It is true that it is hard do keep mana up if you go by the standard rotation. Explicitly if you are requested to innervate the healer.

However as stated elsewhere if specced into Lunar Shower it is possible to almost do the same DPS if you spam MF while moving in Lunar.

I usually do normal rotation but after hitting Lunar second time i spam MF for a while and let my mana regen a bit before going back for the normal rotation.

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I'm not sure what gear level you're at, but with mostly 264/277 gear, I can hit a target dummy infinitely, using innervate on cooldown (I am specced into Dreamstate).

On live im BIS save one piece, on beta level 85, mostly 346 gearing. Im not discussing level 80 because its a moot point, content is over, 4.0.1 is an adjustment to new skills and i spam all day on a test dummy. On beta / ptr, level 85 im oom extremely quickly, self innervating correctly, being diligent. I would direct you all to the Cataclysm forums where many of the beta Moonkins are very concerned at the current state of mana. Its not an issue of understanding when to use innervate, its simply at 85 the cost of our casts is too high.

As to Euphoria, it inherently works opposite of how blizzard wants our design to work, and it makes little sense. As we scale with more haste (previously it was critting) we will simply bounce between Eclipses much faster, proccing much more mana. In higher tiers, unless adjusted, we will see higher mana returns than we do now, thus possibly freeing up our innervates, which right now we are 100% tied to. So in higher tiers, as content gets deeper involved, the mana innervates to healers re-appears? They are seemingly focused on healers wanting to care about mana, and have thusly been working toward making innervate a self cast, rather than changing our model, and making innervate not return mana to other casters.

In order for their model for innervate to work, we have to be again balanced on a knife edge of 50% mana consumption / 3 mins, thus being 100% self sufficient. Any more mana consumption and we are oom, any less mana consumption and we free our innervate to cast elsewhere. Curerently we exceed 150% mana consumption in sub 2 mins. i have little issues with having to utilize 1 gcd every 3 mins for mana regen, other classes are more impacted (locks, mages etc), i just wish their design made more sense.

You should have around 1500 MP / 5 from spirit unless you are stacking / reforging for more. Assume you're in a raid you get another 300 from buffs.

Your in combat regen is 931 mp5, regardless of spirit. Understand why the illustration for mana tide, however others have commented regarding spirit, just re affirming.

edit:

However as stated elsewhere if specced into Lunar Shower it is possible to almost do the same DPS if you spam MF while moving in Lunar.

Im confused as to why this is listed as a solution. I understand it is in the game, but why should we have to utilize a methodology that drops our dps 20-25% while waiting for regen to allow us to cast a handful of spells? Notwithstanding this, lunar shower casting is mana efficient, however it takes 6-7 secs for 1000 mana regen, so for 1 cast of a nuke you have to wait 12 -15 secs? Thats not a solution, thats a workaround by desperate dps

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Your in combat regen is 931 mp5, regardless of spirit. Understand why the illustration for mana tide, however others have commented regarding spirit, just re affirming.

I'm talking about healers and mana regen (and the request that moonkins give innervates to them). Not sure where you're throwing out 931 combat regen. Do moonkins have 931 base casting regen at 85? Guess my Mana tide numbers are off then, because I didn't believe there were base casting mana regen numbers.

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I'm talking about healers and mana regen (and the request that moonkins give innervates to them). Not sure where you're throwing out 931 combat regen. Do moonkins have 931 base casting regen at 85? Guess my Mana tide numbers are off then, because I didn't believe there were base casting mana regen numbers.

Full Level 85 gear ilevel346:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7714/level85fullgear.jpg

Naked Level 85

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9553/level85nogearregen.jpg

Base regen @ 85: 931mp/5

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As we scale with more haste (previously it was critting) we will simply bounce between Eclipses much faster, proccing much more mana. In higher tiers, unless adjusted, we will see higher mana returns than we do now, thus possibly freeing up our innervates

Haste and crit will not be the scaling factors for scaling regen as our gear improves. Haste will speed the time with which we proc more mana but it will also speed the time with which we consume more mana. The number of casts between procs will stay constant regardless of haste levels. INT will be the scaling factor. INT will scale initially by giving us a higher mana pool to begin but then, more importantly, as Euphoria and Dreamstate both are based on max mana pool, it will greatly increase the value of both of those abilities as well (while spell cast costs will remain static derived on a percentage of base mana which will not change). It will also likely make points in Furor worth more than points in Moonglow.

Long-term, I still feel the talents as written will scale well. It would be nice if Euphoria energy gains were still tied to crit to give an additional stat beyond INT that would affect regen upward but I think INT alone will do a ton of heavy lifting as gear improves. This is not to say Blizzard doesn't need to adjust spell mana costs down from current beta levels but rather to say say that I believe our talents are generally written in a way that will scale us to a point where we can give the Innervate away (though it still would make sense to major glyph it to keep some of the personal benefit).

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While the current model may scale well, in earlier tiers its not painful, its disfunctional.

With raids releasing shortly, ill parse and post data at that point, but so far from the data i have seen in 5 mans, with geared people, with might / mp5 buff, is not impressive. Im very concerned with the mana issue and feel innervate is a crutch that should have been abandoned long ago. I will continue to argue to buff our mana by lowering cost of spells, and as for balance tree, i would rather see innervate become a cooldown to proc eclipse (generate full energy instantly), which would solve several issues, than to exist in its current form.

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@Treyce

I am not saying that it is optimal, just stating that in order to maintain dps during current environment lunar shower MF spam is one alternative and also a valid one. The opposite where we dont care about DPM then what is the point with mana?

Current doing instances on heroic mode with premade gear i am able to top the dps and killing what i am supposed to kill. That including innervating the healer instead of me. That was my point i was trying to state. If you have mana issues then currently on beta the lunar shower MF spamm is an option that you should consider.

Standing at the raider post and doing best dps rotation ignoring mana then of course you go oom.

My point is only moot of course if mana should be a aspect we should consider when dpsing.

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I don't really get the point of Innervate anymore if you are never supposed to use it on anyone but yourself. It's pretty worthless for a Feral Druid, since 20% of their mana is practically nothing. Healers are going to be mana deprived, so they'll be using it on themselves. Moonkins are required to use it on themselves like Arcane Mages use Evocate.

The WoW community is just going to have to come to terms with the fact that Innervate is not a raid buff anymore.

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DoT Refreshing:

Do the DoT react on Eclipse on the per tick base in beta? It doesn't on PTR, so imo it the best to refresh both DoTs after an Eclipse proc, because it takes me about 20s to get from proc to proc.

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DoT Refreshing:

Do the DoT react on Eclipse on the per tick base in beta? It doesn't on PTR, so imo it the best to refresh both DoTs after an Eclipse proc, because it takes me about 20s to get from proc to proc.

They don't. People ask this a lot, but I've never been expecting it to change.

It doesn't encourage clipping all that much. Typically, you're going to get only one Eclipsed DoT cast anyway, so it's fine if it comes later rather than sooner.

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New beta patch notes are out:

* Moonfury now also affects Starsurge.

* Cyclone now has a 1.7 sec cast time, down from 2 sec.

* Starfire now costs 11% of base mana, down from 16%. Cast time changed to 3.2 sec, down from 3.5 sec.

* Entangling Roots now has a 1.7 sec cast time, down from 2 sec.

* Thorns damage reduced by 66%, now deals [ 16.8% of Spell Power + 178.58 ] or [ 16.8% of AP + 178.58 ] depending on the highest.

* Moonfire base additional damage increased by 50%.

* Wrath now costs 9% of base mana, down from 14%.

* Euphoria now restores 8/16% (up from 6/12%) mana when you reach a Solar or Lunar eclipse.

Looks like they responded to our concerns.

EDIT: Can anyone on beta check to see if they stealth-fixed Sunfire also?

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Mercy Jesus, praise the Lord!

I called it on Starsurge being included in Moonfury. Now they need to just change it to include all balance spells (hello Typhoon).

Now, please let E&M be applied by all balance spells. Have haste/procs autoupdate on DoT's so I don't have to recast one of them after I get Nature's Grace.

Then make Wild Mushrooms something actually worth the space in my bars and I'll be happy in PvE.

Thorns is nerfed, not like it was useful to begin with as it was meant to be a PvP spell and yet it got purged/dispelled the instant it went up.

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I wonder which is the best way to start a fight;

Lets say that the encounter can be pulled without having to move and starting your dps right when the pull is made.

I am thinking about starting at 80-95% to lunar. Prepot a speed and : S-Surge >Starfall( during the delay to proc an eclipse so you dont use moonfire and doesnt proc your nature's grace ) > moonfire > Starfire

OR

Starting at 80-95% to solar; S-Surge>IS> wrath.

I'd say starting lunar would be better for the effectiveness of the prepot?

( Idk why but i pull 12,5k dps outside icc with single target only with IS and sunfire ??)

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Because there is no more GCD clipping, Haste is no longer disproportionately better for Lunar than Solar. Solar is just stronger in general. Two DoTs are buffed by Nature Damage (Sunfire and Insect Swarm), which is the biggest difference. Still not sure why there is no Arcane equivalent to Sunfire, even if it's baked into an Eclipse Starfire (similar to Ignite maybe?).

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Closing this. Most of the thread is not patch relevant. Please use the appropriately labeled thread.

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