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Sarcy

Retadin use in raids?

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That doesn't mean much without a bit more context. A paladin tanking in a 5-man puts out a surprising amount of damage, and it can often be a challenge for any single-target dps to keep up with that. If you run 5-mans the way I do, a single-target dps that clocks in a 50% of a mage's damage is performing very well.

Fair enough.

I was maintaining about 230 DPS. He was shy of that.

Edit: I haven't been retribution since 2.0 Pre TBC but I know that retribution can pump out more damage than that. What I don't know is by how much. I would assume that using 93+ DPS weapons and TBC gear even an unpracticed ret paladin should have seen some increase. With nerfs to vengeance and CS since I've played ret, and decreasing of crit by new rating system I don't know how much Ret actually brings to the table in terms of DPS. I'm sure an awesome ret paladin with the right gear would surprise me. But I can't see them getting in the same range as even DPS warriors or rogues.

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Fair enough.

I was maintaining about 230 DPS. He was shy of that.

Ah, well that ain't good then.

Based on what I recall from pre-BC days, 400dps really shouldn't be hard to achieve.

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Ah, well that ain't good then.

Based on what I recall from pre-BC days, 400dps really shouldn't be hard to achieve.

I did some math in an eariler thread and yeah thats pretty terrible ret DPS, 400 should be pretty easy to keep up, 500+ if your fully kitted out and using AW when able etc. I can dig up the math if your intrested.

/edit here's the math, originallly posted here: http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=9336&page=3

This is with nerfed 10 sec CS, and 10% vengence.

Lets try some math, because honestly Im not sure myself.

CT Profile: http://ctprofiles.net/13568 (Note just something I threw together for math there are most likely other builds that are better.)

So rough numbers from that profile: 23% crit, 1000 attack power, weapon dmg range is 289-495, 156 spell damage, 4217 mana, 11 mana per 5.

So white damage:

That paladin deals (1000/14) = 71 * 3.8 (wep speed) = 269.8 + 362 (av wep damage) = 631*1.03(crusade) = 649.

Now Vegence on top of that, This is the major assumption on my math If we assume that between a 23% natural crit rate, + 3% crit from Scantified crusader + 15% crit on judgements the paladin has a large chance to have vengence up all the time. Luck will play a factor but for ease, Im going to say he does have it up all the time.

649 x 1.10 = 714 white damage per swing, so 714/3.8 = 187 white dps.

Now crits, so the paladin crits for double damage 23% of the time, so out of the 15 swings per minute he will take, on average, 3 will crit.

So, 714 x3 = 2142/60 = 35 crit dps.

So total white dps is 222 before mitigation, lets say the mob mitigates 20% of each attack (fully sundered this sounds about right), so 20% less dps, gives the paladin 177 white dps.

Now Seal of the Crusader, which does 70% holy damage 7 times per mintue.

so 714 *.7 = 500 (approx 499.8).

500 x 7 = 3498 damage over a minute, so per second is) /60 = 58

But it like the above, it crits about 25% of the time so 1 crit per minute. 500/60 = 8 more dps from crits.

Now Judgements 240 holy damage, judged 6 times a minute. = 1680 /60 = 28

Again critting but now with a 38% crit rate so of the 6 judgments 2 will crit. Also 8 more dps from crits.

36 *1.03(crusade) *1.10 (vengence) gives us 40 dps from judging.

Now both of these holy damage sorces are modified by scanity aura so.

58 + 8 + 40 = 106 damage from seal and judge *1.10(scanity) = 116 holy dps.

So total now we are up to 116 + 177 = 293 dps.

So far the paladin is basically doing nothing just sealing and judging, now add in CS

714+62(40% holy) *6 = 4656/60 = 77 dps.

Crits give us: 25 more dps. so CS adds = 102 dps.

So Just CS, Seal and Judge gives the paladin 396 dps.

(Note Im going to basically stop here since I hit 400dps, the paladins DPS would actuall be much higher with spell damage up and Seal of the Cursader Judged, also if they wanted to go all out they could add conceration spam in for another 50 or so dps.)

Sustainablity should not be a problem, they are only using 2705 mana per mintue, and they gain 11 mana per 5 from gear, and 33 mana per 5 from BoW, and lastly gain 686 over the minute from judging so...

They lose 2705 mana and gain 1214 mana, = 1491 mana lost every minute, so with no pots, and no outside healing, they can keep going for approx 3 minutes. If the are burning a pot every cooldown, or getting healed they should never run out of mana.

So long answer short, ret pallys with end game gear can easilly hit 450 dps without pots, or ou

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It's easy to show math, especially when you don't have to account for many factors.

Typical sundered DR in my experience in Karazhan according to MobMitigation mod is about 30%.

You are also showing no resists, no glancing blows, no parry/dodge, you're assuming you're fighting level 70 mobs based on crit rates, and that Vengeance is always up, which is not true, especially when you consider your crit rate will be lowered by your opponent's higher level.

You're also assuming that all hits are happening as soon as cooldown is up which is not realistic.

Also the assumption is that you're in range for every hit, the mob doesn't knock away, or melee stun, fear, or any of the other myriad anti-melee abilities.

But the big things that stand out in my opinion are: You're not accounting for mob avoidance, you're assuming crit rate for an equal level monster, you're assuming vengeance constantly up, you're assuming all abilities are hit on cooldown. You're assuming no resists on judgements without any spell hit gear.

These IMHO are big things to miss, which is part of the reason I didn't really try and model it. In my experience, my own modeling has been far off the reality.

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Even just ignoring all of those factors I don't think that's an acceptable level of dps. =p

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Even just ignoring all of those factors I don't think that's an acceptable level of dps. =p

Really really dumb question here, but what is considered an acceptable level of dps for a dps class in a raid?

I lead raids, but I'm always either tanking or healing. I keep SWStats up so I can see who's doing what fraction of the damage, and I can tell in a broad sense whether we have "enough" dps for a given encounter or not, but I've never looked at actual dps numbers.

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After personal experience trying full Ret dpsing in 5mans it's just not enough dps. It's especially bad compared to Enh Shamans and Shadow Priests and it's not good compared to Moonkin, Battlekat or Ele Shaman either. The 3% crit is not a huge buff no matter how you spin it and unless we're talking 25man raids with 3+ Paladins it means giving up either JoL or JoW for it (usually Light). I just could not in good conscience justify a raid spot in KZ as Ret (not that I couldn't have gotten away with it).

But even disregarding that Paladins don't offer the group synergy that other hybrids do (vs a healing spec of the same class) they are just low on the dps scale. Admittedly I can't back it up with solid numbers from a fully raid buffed (BS, Totems, Sunder, TSA) Ret pal vs another dps class but from 5mans the dps is not enough. It's not like you can turn around and heal efficiently in melee gear if someone drops.

What needs to be done to make it viable? I'm not sure but old 15% Vengeance, a buff to un-stunned JoC and a shorter CS cooldown would help without going overboard. With new HP values and resilience once it becomes mainstream the HoJ burst people complained about in 2.0 just isn't there. Maybe the devs will realise that and throw us a bone on dps. It doesn't help that Ret needs a silly amount of stats to be effective. Just look at the PvP sets for it. Too much to add so they just skipped Resilience (and gave it lower Sta than other sets).

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Really really dumb question here, but what is considered an acceptable level of dps for a dps class in a raid?

I've been running Recap and watching guild members' DPS on 5-man instances. On average it seems to run around 350-400-ish for people that I consider 'reliable raid DPS', but the hard-hitters can hit 500-600 or so. We had a shadow priest doing 500-ish or so while also healing the Black Morass run for a similiar amount, and that's a pretty long series of battles.

Our gear level is around T2/basic level 70 blues, so I think there's room for improvement. I'd want a ret-paladin to bring 450 DPS because of the melee AOE factor increasing the 'cost' of his raid spot, as it were.

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It's easy to show math, especially when you don't have to account for many factors.

Typical sundered DR in my experience in Karazhan according to MobMitigation mod is about 30%.

You are also showing no resists, no glancing blows, no parry/dodge, you're assuming you're fighting level 70 mobs based on crit rates, and that Vengeance is always up, which is not true, especially when you consider your crit rate will be lowered by your opponent's higher level.

You're also assuming that all hits are happening as soon as cooldown is up which is not realistic.

Also the assumption is that you're in range for every hit, the mob doesn't knock away, or melee stun, fear, or any of the other myriad anti-melee abilities.

But the big things that stand out in my opinion are: You're not accounting for mob avoidance, you're assuming crit rate for an equal level monster, you're assuming vengeance constantly up, you're assuming all abilities are hit on cooldown. You're assuming no resists on judgements without any spell hit gear.

These IMHO are big things to miss, which is part of the reason I didn't really try and model it. In my experience, my own modeling has been far off the reality.

Oh I 100% agree, this is really rough math. Its a calulation off gear I threw together in two seconds just grabbing stuff of wowhead, I didnt cacluate out spell damage, glancing, poping AW, misery on the mob, MS debuff on the mob, zero potions for the paladin, zero raid buffs, etc etc, etc, a lot of assumtions and Im sure my numbers a really off.

However, saying a ret paladin only pulled 250 or so DPS is really really low IMHO, I was just refuting that number. In my personal experience with a ret pally friend of mine who is not very well geared pulling down 400 or so DPS is pretty trival to do.

Im not sure what DPS range we should be looking for, but saying that we cant break 250 is just plain untrue, that thats waht I was responding to.

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Ragnor said it pretty well, among other things ret paladin itemisation has barely improved above level 60 epic pvp gear, judgements while theoritically quite good are problematic in practice especially with the long standing bug that melee hits do not refresh the judgement if it hasnt been refreshed in the first 10 seconds.

We used a Ret paladin in naxx pre-tbc, his dps was excellent but on the constant edge of pulling aggro even with salv. But even with a 6 second crusader strike judgements were dropping and the best numbers I could come up with said that he was deserved a place in a 40 man raid but not 25.

38/0/23 is a very nice holy build and provides most benefits of a retribution Paladin.

Perhaps in a few months a ret paladin with a good selection of arena and farmed T4 gear will be able to be a acceptable part of a raid doing exclusivily 25 man content but 10 man?

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The solution, again, requires two major things:

1) An ability the paladin has to be actively engaged in melee to provide to the raid, and wearing Ret gear

2) An ability that is actually worth providing to the raid (better than 3% crit) versus alternatives

I've read some snippets about Warhammer having a system where, in order to heal, paladins have to melee in order to build up energy or some such. Is anyone more familiar with this model?

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About paladin dps in 5 mans...

I've actually found pre 70 5 man dps ok. I was overseas for the first month or so of the xpac but at the moment I've level 68, I'm using the lvl 68 quest reward polearm, full 5/5 T2.5 and crit/ap/hit rings, necks and trinkets.

In successive Auchenai Crypts runs last night over the whole run my dps was 450-500 (measured using recap).

What I find hugely disturbing is my stats are hardly better than at 60 because there are no suitable upgrades. In 8 levels my AP has gone up by ~200-300, however my crit % has decreased due to crit rating scaling. My hit and +dmg are largely the same.

I keep seeing shaman and feral druid blue melee dps drops that are awesome but nothing but tanking or holy gear for paladins.

Next step is working towards crafting thunder and pvp'ing for arena gear. Thunder will be a significant upgrade but the arena gear is pretty meh.

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The solution, again, requires two major things:

1) An ability the paladin has to be actively engaged in melee to provide to the raid, and wearing Ret gear

2) An ability that is actually worth providing to the raid (better than 3% crit) versus alternatives

I've read some snippets about Warhammer having a system where, in order to heal, paladins have to melee in order to build up energy or some such. Is anyone more familiar with this model?

That could actually be interesting by making a talent along the lines of say, "Your melee [hits/crits] [have a N% chance to] [increase/reduce] the [effect/cost/cast time/whatever] of your next Y by N%, stacks up to X times.".

If we're going for the idea of the Warcraft III Paladin (Swinging it up at the front lines while supporting with heals), giving your melee hits a chance to reduce the cast time on your healing spells for example would be an idea. Of course, typical Ret itemization isn't much good for healing.

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What needs to be done to make it viable? I'm not sure but old 15% Vengeance, a buff to un-stunned JoC and a shorter CS cooldown would help without going overboard. With new HP values and resilience once it becomes mainstream the HoJ burst people complained about in 2.0 just isn't there. Maybe the devs will realise that and throw us a bone on dps. It doesn't help that Ret needs a silly amount of stats to be effective. Just look at the PvP sets for it. Too much to add so they just skipped Resilience (and gave it lower Sta than other sets).

Unfortunately this appears to be the official viewpoint

With that being said, we do feel that the Paladin is currently capable of producing too much burst damage and are investigating reasonable ways to make minor reductions for the future.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79669544&pageNo=2&sid=1#23

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Yeah. =/ It was nice when I crit 3 out of 4 on my HoJ nuke but it's not as if that's something I can reliably dish out. ~5% chance to do nice damage once a minute is not great. And it's not as if we're the top bursters or have meaningful debuffs to put on people. After the HoJ there isn't much going on without some help from the random number generator. Any half-aware healer is going to heal through whatever we put out easily unless he gets caught on half with our HoJ up. Well, at least I can heal.

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I've read some snippets about Warhammer having a system where, in order to heal, paladins have to melee in order to build up energy or some such. Is anyone more familiar with this model?

woah, rage bar for paladins! Warriors would be up in arms and fury!

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Retribution paladins need a buff to sustained DPS (or raid utility) if they're to ever be considered as worthy of a raid slot (other than as a pity invite).

I was lucky enough to pick up a Despair on our second R&J kill ... even with this (and a gear set aimed toward ret dps), I was routinely getting trounced by mages, locks, hunters, rogues and tanking feral druids (and probably shadow priests, too, but I didn't run with any of them before I packed it in and went back to holy), by which any and all of those were doing 30% more damage than I did (and in the first two cases, 50%-100% more damage depending on gear and ability/aggressiveness).

It seems to me to be fairly obvious that the dev team have their knickers in a twist about potential burst dps paladins *can* do (and yes, when all the planets out to Jupiter were aligned correctly, I could hit something for ~5-6k damage instantly and still have 5 seconds left on stun). The answer to this also seems fairly obvious to me ... Seal of Command is the prime cause of our streaky damage, so double or triple the proc rate and halve or third the damage done per proc.

However, it's still a thorny problem because then you have to balance having plate, heals, the best defensive group support tools and somehow fit reasonable DPS in there as well. I wonder if there's any way to introduce a talent, something like say Spirit of the Avenger, increases all damage done by 15% but disables healing/blessing (so yes, basically shadowform for paladins) in order to sacrifice group utility for individual DPS. Sanctified Crusader is a nice group buff, but as others have said you don't need to be DPSing to get the primary benefits of being a ret paladin, so you either need to add group buffs that revolve around being in melee or add enough raw DPS that ret paladins aren't lagging significantly behind (as-is, I can only beat anyone on DPS if they're either AFK or dead).

PS: Should I be happy or sad that even when I was full ret spec, I was outhealing priests in heroics with better mana conservation?

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PS: Should I be happy or sad that even when I was full ret spec, I was outhealing priests in heroics with better mana conservation?

Please Thelyna, don't say things like that without pointing out that either a) you were rolling with some piss-terrible priests or 2)you have really really good healing gear, and up to Illumination in the holy tree. =D

I do agree with the rest of your post though. Paladins are capable of decent burst damage right now. The reality of it though, is that it requires some nice gear, and a really good spot of luck to boot. A string of crits sucks to see when you're on the receiving end, but let's be honest with each other here.

The other classes have stun/immobilize/root effects at their disposal. The other classes have the capability for huge burst damage, and in most cases, lots more than the Paladin can put out. Why pick on the Paladin? Is it the fact that a Paladin has some amazing utilities and defense mechanisms? So do other classes. You can look across the board and find defensive skills and abilities for each class. It's completely unfair to ask that this one single class in the game should not have the ability to deal respectable damage, if they spec/gear for it.

The classic example to me is the Shadow Priest. I know people hate to see this, but it's the straight truth. The priest is hands-down the best healing class in the game. Yet they are still given a talent tree and the gear to go along with it to make them one of the better damage classes out there. When a priest specs Shadow, he gives up a lot of the healing power he had when specced Holy. Why can't a Paladin have that same ability?

The obvious answer is the fact that he wears plate armor, and has blessings, and can heal really well. Priests have fear, mass dispel, heals(even in shadowform)... I don't see the problem here.

Please. Give the Paladins a chance, Blizzard. Everyone else gets to do damage, why can't we?

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...

The classic example to me is the Shadow Priest. I know people hate to see this, but it's the straight truth. The priest is hands-down the best healing class in the game. Yet they are still given a talent tree and the gear to go along with it to make them one of the better damage classes out there. When a priest specs Shadow, he gives up a lot of the healing power he had when specced Holy. Why can't a Paladin have that same ability?

The obvious answer is the fact that he wears plate armor, and has blessings, and can heal really well. Priests have fear, mass dispel, heals(even in shadowform)... I don't see the problem here.

Please. Give the Paladins a chance, Blizzard. Everyone else gets to do damage, why can't we?

The baseline paladin is a heal/tank hybrid. You have high durability, high survivability, and low-medium DPS.

The baseline priest is a heal/dps hybrid. You have low-medium durability, good survivability, good damage output.

If you want to improve the DPS of the former such that it is competitive in sheer damage output with the latter. . . that would require the talent trees to make a much larger difference than they do now - and would be difficult to balance.

Considering how Blizzard is trying to reign in paladin damage output ("we do feel that the Paladin is currently capable of producing too much burst damage" - Eyonix), I'd consider it futile to ask that the Ret paladin "earn his raid slot" by boosting his damage output. It's not feasible without greatly altering the baseline capabilities of the paladin. (it would essentially become a new class)

A more realistic approach is to look to add more raid utility to heavy Ret. Preferably without resorting to "Holy Vampiric Embrace" and "Retribution Form" (can't use heals, lawl!).

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I've read some snippets about Warhammer having a system where, in order to heal, paladins have to melee in order to build up energy or some such. Is anyone more familiar with this model?

According to previews, Warrior-Priests will essentially charge up their spells (buffs and heals, presumably) by hitting people. Then again, you should realize that WAR is being designed such that every single class is a damage dealer, with some of them having abilities such as buffs/debuffs/heals. There is no primary healer class in WAR.

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Please Thelyna, don't say things like that without pointing out that either a) you were rolling with some piss-terrible priests or 2)you have really really good healing gear, and up to Illumination in the holy tree. =D

I don't run groups with piss-terrible priests. :)

And no, I didn't even have Illumination (*or* Healing Light, I was either 11/0/50 or 10/0/51), I was basically chain-flashing (stopcasting macro, I can get my flash time down to about 1.6-1.7 seconds, but a burst of lag foobars that up) and letting the priest in the run cover anything else ... there wasn't much else to cover on trash (well-geared tank).

Anyhow, we're getting off point, and I certainly don't want to see our baseline healing abilities get nerfed so we can get DPS.

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The baseline paladin is a heal/tank hybrid. You have high durability, high survivability, and low-medium DPS.

The baseline priest is a heal/dps hybrid. You have low-medium durability, good survivability, good damage output.

If you want to improve the DPS of the former such that it is competitive in sheer damage output with the latter. . . that would require the talent trees to make a much larger difference than they do now - and would be difficult to balance.

This brings up something I think interesting.

The Retribution tree is the only one of a Paladin's three trees that doesn't enhance a basic strength of the class. Rather, it elevates a weak area (dps) from "poor" to "okay". And in a world of mini-max raiding, "okay" doesn't cut it.

Is there another talent tree for any class that tries to enhance a weak area of the class?

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This brings up something I think interesting.

The Retribution tree is the only one of a Paladin's three trees that doesn't enhance a basic strength of the class. Rather, it elevates a weak area (dps) from "poor" to "okay". And in a world of mini-max raiding, "okay" doesn't cut it.

Is there another talent tree for any class that tries to enhance a weak area of the class?

Ret could be a utility tree. Kind of like pre-TBC Arcane for mages, or Disc for Priests, or Survival for Hunters. A tree that "focuses" on being well-rounded, rather than having maximized output or efficiency.

As a tree that makes the paladin into more of a "melee fighter", the Ret tree does a reasonable job - (adds controlled damage options, control with Repentence) but what use does a party or raid have for a "melee fighter" with low-medium DPS? (I'd like to think I'm useful as a 5th man - but the number of instance runs the past few weeks where I haven't been healer or tank is . . . close to zero)

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According to previews, Warrior-Priests will essentially charge up their spells (buffs and heals, presumably) by hitting people. Then again, you should realize that WAR is being designed such that every single class is a damage dealer, with some of them having abilities such as buffs/debuffs/heals. There is no primary healer class in WAR.

And they seem to be proud of making fun of support classes in pvp. But then again, its a pvp game; I dont think it would be healthy to compare the 2.

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According to previews, Warrior-Priests will essentially charge up their spells (buffs and heals, presumably) by hitting people. Then again, you should realize that WAR is being designed such that every single class is a damage dealer, with some of them having abilities such as buffs/debuffs/heals. There is no primary healer class in WAR.

Well, I seem to recall WoW once being marketed as having "no true support classes," but that obviously evolved quite differently.

Anyway, the game has some great ideas for making a support spec that isn't healing. Enhancement shaman, shadow priests (some healing), and whatnot. Really all they would have to do is invent something similar and you'd create a viable raiding tree.

This thread is mainly about raids, I know, but it would be a nice bonus of this ret change also gave Ret paladins an place in group PvP somehow. I mean as it stands, it's a great 1 on 1 spec, and a pretty good small battle spec, but by the time you have 5v5 I can't conceive of any use (besides repentance).

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