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Sarcy

Retadin use in raids?

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Ret paladins offer two great advantages though over the other offspecs:

- They can make excellent healers with a 20/0/41 spec (20 holy, 41 ret) due to the placement of the healing talents in the holy tree.

- Their perks do not require them to wear a completely different gearset (imp sanc aura, cs).

This means that while a ret paladin doing melee DPS is a complete waste of a raid spot, a ret paladin who heals is probably the best suited healing offspec. We had a ret paladin main heal (with a shadowpriest) a heroic run, and it was perfectly smooth and he never had any mana issues - I doubt any other offspec would be able to pull that off.

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This brings up something I think interesting.

The Retribution tree is the only one of a Paladin's three trees that doesn't enhance a basic strength of the class. Rather, it elevates a weak area (dps) from "poor" to "okay". And in a world of mini-max raiding, "okay" doesn't cut it.

Is there another talent tree for any class that tries to enhance a weak area of the class?

The druid's balance tree comes to mind.

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Shaman w/ elemental spec can too...

.. but yes a Paladin in a shadow priests group is simply nuts with the extra regen from spiritual attunement.

Pre xpac I've healed on every boss (upto 4h man) with a 20 holy spec but you have to remember health totals were smaller you could flash of light heal spam for most fights and it was pre downranking nerf. Rank 1 FoL / Rank 4 HL forever for big numbers.

It probably isn't going to cut it for many of the fights now where you have to use high rank holy lights to cover the hits being taken.

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It probably isn't going to cut it for many of the fights now where you have to use high rank holy lights to cover the hits being taken.

The only time I feel I have "needed" more than 20 in Holy is for Heroics, typically because I have to main heal them. On 40 mans and 10 mans to this point, it has been mostly superfluous unless your group makeup is bad. And, of course, you need ~34 for PvP, where you need Light's Grace if you want to be a serious 5v5 healer.

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I consider myself a relatively dedicated Ret Paladin, and I DPS in karazhan. I persist in staying with Retribution despite its long-standing flaws, in the hope that I'll be vindicated by another fix that I only got a taste of during the beta of 2.0, when retribution was really silly overpowered.

I honestly don't think there's that much of a mechanics flaw standing between Ret and doing proper DPS; I have a terrible threat profile (the worst possible, really) so I have to be more careful on that front, but most of the time that doesn't really hurt me too much. We have good tanks. Command scales at a good rate with gear, as well. Which is the problem.

My damage is usually fairly OK; #3-#4 normally in Karazhan and often higher on bosses, though I think I make a much higher effort in terms of consumables than others do oftentimes, probably since I have more to prove. I also know for certain that a Feral or Enhance making as much of an effort for their specialty as I put into Ret would dominate the meters by a colossal margin.

I think a few improvements could be made for the Crusader Strike/judgement interaction, either cutting 1-2 seconds off the CS cooldown or extending the base length of judgements by a few seconds to allow a second chance to reset a judgement that is being pinned up; one chance just isn't enough, most of the time. I also think Sanctified Crusader could perhaps use being a bit stronger, mayhap by extending it to a 5pt talent; Ferals and Enhance shamans have obvious and powerful benefits, between bolstered totems and Unleashed Rage (and Windfury in general) for shamans, and LoTP and the Mangle debuff (and an extra full tank when needed) for ferals. My benefits just seem much more marginal in comparison. I provide 3% crit for the raid (when an improved Grace/wrath or a LOTP provides more than that to everone that actually needs it), a second blessing, and an Imp. LoH from someone who can easily afford to sacrifice his mana on demand, unlike the main healer holy Paladin; it's nice, but I'm not sure it's enough to be a real draw when Holy is what it is.

The biggest flaw, to my eyes, is a lack of appropriate gear. The problem is that I think blizzard believes that a good "ret" set is what I dub the "Blood Knight" set, Lawbringer armor pieces recolored to red and shades of purple. This includes items like:

Head: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27505 (Ruby Helm of the Just)

Shoulder: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27844 (Pauldrons of Swift Retribution)

Chest: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28337 (Breastplate of Righteous Fury)

Belt: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27755 (Girdle of Gallantry)

Legs: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27893 (Ornate Leggings of the Venerated)

Boots: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27884 (Ornate Boots of the Sanctified)

Bracers: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27447 (Bracers of Just Rewards)

Gloves: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27798 (Gauntlets of Vindication)

This set is very very heavy on sta/int/str/spellpower, but rather lightweight when it comes to crit and so on, which are very important. It's just not optimal for doing damage as ret... honestly, I'm not entirely sure what it is optimal for, considering how many of the truly worthwhile pieces of it are sequestered in heroics. The only heroic element of it I've managed to acquire so far is the Breastplate, which is one of the less impressive pieces. Justicar Battlegear is well designed, but beyond those five items there is simply nothing to fill in the remainder. I've begun picking up the unwanted hunter loot in Kara by necessity, and mixing it with various purple PvP items. I'll get Justicar Gloves when we see champion drop, and probably the second or third helmet, and roughly similar priority if Gruul and Magtheridon are retuned such that they can be done without crazy consumables... but for all my other gear slots? There's just nowhere to go, really.

I usually have to force my way into raids a bit, by force of personality and by providing food consumables amongst other things around happily. My raid leader is fairly accomodating, but I am well aware that what he gets from me isn't much; an extra Imp. LoH, a second blessing, medium-ok single-target damage, and a decent and competent but highly eccentric player. Emphasis on highly eccentric.

I'm levelling a resto shaman to provide some versatility. I'm a little worried that once I get it to 70, I'll really never raid on my Paladin again.

It's just... insulting, really, that druids can happily spec Feral without being reviled, and Shamans are free to spec Elemental or Enhance and still be perfectly useful in raids, where I as a Paladin have to face the exact same bias I always did back at 60. Even Balance druids are better off than I am as Ret, in terms of popular perception. Paladins have to fight heavy bias any time they spec something other than Holy, simply because Holy is too amazingly strong for the good of the class.

It was the same story back at 60 when I was given our guild's Sulfuras. At least now there's the opportunity to prove that I'm worthwhile as what I choose to do, rather than it being obvious that I am just being humored. In some ways, that makes it worse...

Edit: in terms of DPS, I generally put up ~400 when solo and left alone to my own devices, but that usually includes a Mongoose or Major Agility and an Adamantine Weightstone, which I generally use as a matter of course. With a battleshout and LOTP on a raid mob that number climbs a good bit, since Glancing attacks still proc Commands, especially since I use full consumables on bosses by my own preference. If I get the opportunity I'll watch DPSes a bit closer on Aran saturday, if I get in. I tend to watch meters more than DPS, usually; I got #1 a few weeks ago on entrance --> moroes --> maiden --> opera, but fair's fair, I used a flask. At least our performance isn't so far behind that a 400 AP bump over everyone else isn't enough to overcome.

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I would like to express my astonishment that nobody's attempted to slip in the word "retardin" in a non-ironic manner with the thread being alive this long.

Carry on.

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My damage is usually fairly OK; #3-#4 normally in Karazhan

I've offered to my guild the chance to entertain the idea of a retadin in raids, however things like this just make me go....

I'm going to make a small assumption here, but our guild runs with 2 tanks, and 4 healers. So, if you're top 3-4 DPS that means you're basically last.

I think that Blizzard is trying to tune paladin damage to be on the lower end, simply because they can go invulnerable. That is a very, very powerful ability. If paladins were capable of putting out damage that elemental shaman or feral druids could, it would vastly unbalance arena PvP.

Not to mention the damned paladins that are abusing the "Avenging Wrath + Divine Shield" bug in the arena. /shakes fist

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Eh, I'm not really overly concerned about Ret use in raid (maybe I'm just having too much fun with the other trees), but I disagree. You can have balanced PvE damage output without overbalancing PvP. Combat rogues and fury warriors are 2 PvE damage kings that come to mind that are actually (relatively) weak in PvP. If Ret paladins had higher consistent damage, without increasing their burst signficantly (buff SoR?), I don't see that has particularly unbalancing.

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I'm going to make a small assumption here, but our guild runs with 2 tanks, and 4 healers. So, if you're top 3-4 DPS that means you're basically last.
We use two-three primary healers (often excellent holy paladin + excellent holy priest + offspec that is healing), 1 pure Prot warrior tank, and one DPS/tank (often a feral, who was often #1/#2 before the bear nerf and hasn't been raiding since the nerf. It could also be a 30/31 prot/fury warrior or one of a number of more hybrid ferals. We have a lot of druids, a number of whom are crit immune when tanking.). We're often very heavy on offspec hybrids, so if healing gets desperate one of us can role shift. Most of the time 2.5 healers is more than enough, however.

Third means firmly in the middle of the pack. Which is lower than it should be considering the effort expressed, but it isn't terrible. Think of it as 12'th in a 40man, if you want to sort your thoughts better.

Fourth (or lower) means we're on one of those melee discouraging fights and the melee is suffering, or the druid has Swiftmend instead of lotp or Commanding Shout is being used, and anyone dependent on melee range or AP is suffering. Generally, under normal conditions my performance will roughly match our partial cryptstalker hunter, and our position will trade depending on who has more other duties to perform in a given fight (usually him).

We generally are fairly light on melee, in our raids. Melee buffs often have a low-ish priority in group composition.

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Combat rogues and fury warriors are 2 PvE damage kings that come to mind that are actually (relatively) weak in PvP.

So are enhancement shamans. The common denominator of all 3 classes is dual wield: fast, small attacks that add up to a mountain of damage. Without giving Paladins dual wield (which will never, ever happen) I'm not really sure how you'd improve their PVE DPS without also improving their PVP DPS since the entire Ret tree is geared toward using a two-handed weapon. Taking a second look at Seal of the Crusader or a permanent haste effect ala the hunter BM tree might be a possibility.

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Part of the problem with ret dps is that it is exceptionally gear dependent. There aren't a whole lot of items floating around with all of str/crit/hit/int/spell hit/spell crit/spell damage on them. I had always had my doubts about ret dps in raids until I transferred to Hyjal.

I finally ran into a paladin here with the gear and skill to pull it off. While I don't have hard numbers his competitive DPS, sanctified crusader, the n+1'th paladin buff, and occasional nightfall (lol), are more than enough to earn him a raid spot.

The gear barrier for ret paladins to be competitive feels much higher than for other hybrids, and their utility to a 25 man raid drops off -significantly- for each one after the first.

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As others have said, I would be extremely hesistant to bring a ret paladin on progression content. For farm content it doesn't seem like it's too terribly suboptimal, but I can't imagine being a ret paladin and not getting burnt out on it; everyone likes to feel like they are making a difference, and putting out low to moderate dps while keeping up a mostly invisible +3% crit just "feels" unimpressive. IMO, Blizzard did the worst job with paladins in terms of balancing all the specs, but it's also probably the hardest class to balance properly.

I think it's pretty clear now that the shadow priest has the winning design; the reason being 2 healers grouped with a shadow priest are better healers, thanks to vampiric touch(and the patch healing from VE). The problem is they ran out of design space for benefits, and they seem to be trying hard to keep the various mechanics from becoming too similar:

Group Mana Regen while DPSing: Shadow Priest

Group Healing while DPSing: Feral Druid, Shadow Priest

Caster Damage Increase While DPSing: Shadow Priest(Misery), Elemental Shaman(ToW), Moonkin

Physical Damage Increase While DPSing: Arms Warriors, Enhancement Shaman, Feral Druid

The ret paladin is attempting to combine two of these types of ideas: an all around DPS buff, to both physical and caster classes; and a +healing aura, which is a fairly unique mechanic (especially considering ToL's original effect, it seems they wanted Sanc aura to be the "special flower" ret paladins could bring.) The trouble is all those classes listed above actually DO decent dps. I've even seen moonkin put up some pretty good numbers. Since paladins are so "defensive-oriented," the buffs they give out should be the BEST of any of these, which they really just aren't.

It seems like the mana regen idea is the least used, as it is largely a new mechanic to 2.0. Since carbon copy ideas are bad, why not add a reverse blessing of sacrifice type deal(Blessing of Whatever, restores 5% of paladin's damage as mana to raid member; can only be on one person and one blessing yadada).

Anyway, didn't mean to clutter up the topic with random ideas, but I think that's the point we're at; until Blizzard comes up with a new idea, it's just not worth it.

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The problem is retadins don't bring anything unique to the raid aside from thier 3% crit. Its simply not enough to make up for what you miss out on by speccing that deeply into ret.

You talk about keeping wisdom and light up, ok thats great. Retadins are at best no better than a holy paladin at that. The holy paladin will be using a fast 1h weapon, they will have ~8% chance to miss. Being a hybrid spell casts do not reset thier swing timer, that means they will be swinging largely uninterrupted, assuming of course they don't actually target who they heal. If they do thats not a holy paladin problem its a bad paladin problem.

The other benefit is a slight increase in healing from the improved aura, its simply not good enough to justify the spot though.

Even assuming there must be a 20/41 holy ret paladin on the raid the best use for it is in full healing gear doing healing, not meleeing for dps. The problem is there is no benefit other than thier damage to let them melee and thier damage is not in the same ballpark as a real or even hybrid dps class.

Enhance shaman are very well designed, shadow priests as well. They HAVE to dps to be effective. And of course they do much much more dps than any retadin.

All melee/healer hybrids run into an issue of stats not doing double duty. You want strength for damage, healing for healing. At least elemental shaman and balance druids can heal in thier damage gear with reasonable effiency. They have ~50% of the +healing as someone decked out in strait healing gear but they have a lot more int/mp5/spell crit etc than a melee hybrid.

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As others have mentioned above, Retribution Paladins seem to be lacking in some sort of useful augmentation. Balance dictates that they cannot have impressive DPS, because they come standard with invulnerability, plate, and healing. Therefore, to make them desirable in PvE a unique ability is needed, and presumably 30+ points into the tree. Also, said new utility should reinforce melee DPS playstyle.

One idea I had, would be to add an auxillary effect onto a crit Crusader Strike. These are just some options I've thought of:

Something Defensive. Could be a short duration dodge buff to the rest of the party, could be a debuff on the opponent reducing damage output, perhaps a -spelldamage effect.

Something Offensive for the rest of the party. Perhaps a significant weaponskill boost for the party, perhaps a -resistance effect.

A buff to healing of some sort. A boost to the paladin's next FoL healing power, or reduce the next HL mana cost. Should work like Cold Blood, not consumed until ability is used. Or a buff on the party increasing healing recieved.

Something Wacky. I don't know how the raid game plays any more, but I keep hearing movement is sometimes important. Perhaps a 30% group move speed increase for 30 seconds? Don't know if it would get used at all, but it might let DPS stay attacking a little longer?

All of the above ideas have flaws of some sort. Defensive buffs can move rapidly between worthless and required, especially for single tank encounters. But flavor wise, a defensive buff seems to make the most sense thematically. Offensive buffs are a crowded place already, adding more to another hybrid seems lackluster to me. Healing boosts, either to the paladin or their party, don't seem to me to create a new role for paladin DPS, but merely reduce the opportunity cost of said paladin doing DPS. As for wacky group runspeed buffs, it's certainly unique, but it's usability in PvE seems somewhat in question.

One thing the Retribution tree does seem to lack as a whole, is versatility. Both Protection and Holy have different ways of boosting other areas. Holy has increased spell crit, increased spell power, and strength. Protection has +hit chance, Reckoning, and mixed abilities like kings, imp HoJ, and Guardian's Favor. Retribution has Imp Sanctity Aura, Benediction for -seal manacost, Sanctified Judgement, for more -seal manacost, and the manacost reducers for seals seem lackluster at best.

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I think the reason is just this simple - Protection is a great tanking spec and a bearable healer (in healing gear), Holy is the most efficient single target healers. They won't get amazing dps all in 1 class.

Considering how most specs have really become a lot more viable in terms of overall raid synergy I don't think its not deliberate that Ret isn't amazing PVE dps. They seem comfortable with classes having 2 roles they can do very well at most, not necessarily 3.

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a) Fights in melee range but has no passive -threat reduction

b) Incredibly streaky damage

No proc's and no crits = lol auto attack dps. Lots of proc's and crits = gg agro.

The utility talents actually require you to spec well over 41 points in ret and the +hit talents are oddly placed in the protection tree so you have to go at least 8 into prot which leaves you about 5 for holy which makes you completely worthless as a healer (should the need arise).

I'll continue stay 20/0/41 for fun and soloing ability (lol try quest or farm with holy/prot) and spec holy/prot for first kills and cutting edge content but I really wish they would add some raid/group utility to crusader strike.

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Imho we're more lacking in actual dps than we are in group buffs. 1 Blessing/Paladin gives us decent stacking value regardless of spec as long as somebody has Kings.

If Enh Shamans and Shadow Priests had the same group buff effect as they do now but did the same subpar dps as Paladins do (assuming equal gear) then I don't think they'd be perceived as useful as they are atm - or Ele/Feral/Balance at that. PvP seems to be the stopper here but goddamn, the bubble has a 5 minute cd (unless we're so deep in Prot that we can't do any decent dps anyway) and BoP is relatively useless as self cast. They threw out 1on1 balance a very long time ago with the design of other classes.

You won't find anyone that'll make that case that Paladins are overpowered dps in arenas either. And any paladin that has tried to play the "Ele/Resto" role of .5dps/.5healer reports mostly the same thing, they spend more time healing/cleansing/buffing than they do actually dpsing, and they do the aforementioned much worse than if they'd just suck it up and spec Holy with a glowstick and a shield. Against 4k hp sure, Paladins frontloaded too much in a HoJ but at 8k+ hp pools it's not the same game. But alas, I doubt they're gonna throw us any bones on this.

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The problem with Retribution Paladins isn't that their buffs are lacking but that their contribution is difficult to track. And because the buffs have such a wide ranging effect, the individual DPS contribution of the Ret paladin is balanced to a much lower level.

I use the same basic test for all hybrids in evaluating raid roles. Is taking the hybrid at least a breakeven proposition relative to bringing another hybrid? For some builds this is much easier to calculate. For example, an enhancement shaman's unleashed rage or an elemental shaman's totem of wrath gives a 5-6% DPS buff to other group members. So if the shaman is doing 75-80% of rogue or mage DPS and bringing an additional 20-25% of an individual's DPS in the form of buffs that is a breakeven proposition. And of course there is further utility in bringing hybrids besides their DPS contribution.

Retadin buffs are more complicated to evaluate. Sanctified Crusader is a 3% buff to about 14 people in a 25 man raid. This is 42% of individual DPS and brings the Paladin's break even DPS to 58%. Improved sanctity aura is 6% buff to in group heals. Assuming you have your MT and primary OT in the same group with the Retadin and they take 75% or so of all raid healing this is another 32% of an extra individual healer. Throw in the fact that crusader strike can keep up a Judgment of Wisdom from another paladin for more mana feedback to caster DPS and the benefits to the MT from the Vindication debuff. Taken all together it doesn't really matter how poor a Retadin's personal DPS is, even at 25% of that of a regular DPS class, the raidwide buffs would be more than enough to justify a raid spot. And DPS is never quite that low in any case.

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One of the main issues I've found with investigating ret is that the classic ret items, are not producing a whole lot of crit, and without crit ret paladins drop off a lot in their damage output.

The blue heroic ret "set", is pretty much all str/sta/int/spell damage, with sockets. However these sockets tend to shy away from yellow, and yellow's the main colour of hit/crit, what these sets are missing. By the standards of these blues, my ret set is pretty good. However the issue is my crit is barely over 14%. With better rings I could probably reach 16%, but that wouldn't really solve the overall issue. I have the hammer off HKM in gruul's, and in 5 manning, and struggling to maintain 20% of the damage with a warlock and shadow priest. I was closer to the tank, by a good margin.

The ret pvp set is really the only salvageable pvp set, for PvE purposes. It doesn't have the wasted points in resilience. You'll need the general's scaled 3 items for those non-set covered slots, and probably the arena pieces for the harder to get chest/leggings. This set has the same type of stats as the blue heroic set, but it has crit in it, which you'll need badly.

For jewelery you're pouching from the melee dps classes, and you can take items that are better suited to a DPS warrior.

Yes keeping up JoL/JoW would be nice, and the 3% crit would be nice. However I don't think that even with all that extra work gear, your DPS would be high enough to justify having a DPS slot, based on the amount of extras you bring to the raid. The thing that bothers me the most of this is the weak set bonus in the T4 healing set, +20 to JoL, seems to go to waste without a ret paladin. Based on the time I have to spend maintaining a judgement really cuts into the amount of healing I can do, even if it's safe to have the paladins in there.

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Not to mention the damned paladins that are abusing the "Avenging Wrath + Divine Shield" bug in the arena. /shakes fist

This was used against my team once... what exactly is this bug? Is it clever use of mechanics, or are they exploiting?

When I asked a GM if warlocks were able to come out the gate with a Void Sac Shield on and another pet out, they said it was intended mechanics... is this a similar thing?

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This was used against my team once... what exactly is this bug? Is it clever use of mechanics, or are they exploiting?

When I asked a GM if warlocks were able to come out the gate with a Void Sac Shield on and another pet out, they said it was intended mechanics... is this a similar thing?

I would presume they're exploiting some unintended bug in the mechanics.

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Retadin buffs are more complicated to evaluate. Sanctified Crusader is a 3% buff to about 14 people in a 25 man raid. This is 42% of individual DPS and brings the Paladin's break even DPS to 58%. Improved sanctity aura is 6% buff to in group heals. Assuming you have your MT and primary OT in the same group with the Retadin and they take 75% or so of all raid healing this is another 32% of an extra individual healer. Throw in the fact that crusader strike can keep up a Judgment of Wisdom from another paladin for more mana feedback to caster DPS and the benefits to the MT from the Vindication debuff. Taken all together it doesn't really matter how poor a Retadin's personal DPS is, even at 25% of that of a regular DPS class, the raidwide buffs would be more than enough to justify a raid spot. And DPS is never quite that low in any case.

Whoah whoah, I do not see how a +3% crit chance to a boss translates to 42% of a single DPS class with 14 DPSers. Its far less than that. First 3% crit boost is NOT a 3% straight out damage boost, its less than 1% for many classes (not sure about rogues).

I do agree that it is a very nice boost and worth testing out on difficult encounters to see viability, but the numbers you are throwing out don't seem right. Imp Sanc Aura is nice, but its hard to setup groups for it, especially if you want devo aura on hard hitting bosses.

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This was used against my team once... what exactly is this bug? Is it clever use of mechanics, or are they exploiting?

When I asked a GM if warlocks were able to come out the gate with a Void Sac Shield on and another pet out, they said it was intended mechanics... is this a similar thing?

AW is off the global cooldown, and can be triggered simultaneously with the shield without conflicting with Forberance before both go up.

It was why they nearly nerfed shields last time.

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That doesn't mean much without a bit more context. A paladin tanking in a 5-man puts out a surprising amount of damage, and it can often be a challenge for any single-target dps to keep up with that. If you run 5-mans the way I do, a single-target dps that clocks in a 50% of a mage's damage is performing very well.

As a shadow priest I find myself to outdamage both locks and mages in 5 mans even if a shadow priest is mostly a single target dps (other than spreading dots around). 50% of what a mage does is hardly enough to justify a spot in a raid.

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Whoah whoah, I do not see how a +3% crit chance to a boss translates to 42% of a single DPS class with 14 DPSers. Its far less than that. First 3% crit boost is NOT a 3% straight out damage boost, its less than 1% for many classes (not sure about rogues).

Sure it depends on class. Rogues, hunters and warriors probably benefit the most. Warlocks and shadow priests probably benefit the least. Mages it mostly depends on spec. But for many classes there are also addon abilities for getting a crit (ignite, unleashed rage, seal fate to name a few). 42% is probably a little bit on the high side but 14% is probably far too low. Somewhere in the 30-40% range for net contribution is probably right, depending on raid composition.

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