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Tyrian

Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release

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Was it one particular dot that consistently kept running out before pyro hit if the traveltime was to long?

If so it should be easy to just calculate output compared to refreshing that dot or simply trying to be at

close range when setting up combustion.

The travel time theory has been brought up without ingame testing so there is no particular dot which caused problems. This problem is maybe more likely to happen with the Ignite dot because with its 4 sec duration, a small window time without any crit would lead to losing it. That's maybe another reason to be able to use the very high crit chance of scorch while moving : to keep ignite up, so we have a full power combustion.

Ignite would maybe be the most important dot to take care when using combustion as it's likely to be highest DPS contributor.

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You can't not have ignite included because the spell combustion affects is given 100% crit chance. Hence why it should be Fireball or Pyroblast.

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New build up. Combustion is revamped and seems to be a damage dealing spell of its own now.

I like the hot streak change, especially for low level mages. Pyroblast as our defining tree spell without hot streak seemed a bit silly. Bbut the necessity for improved hot streak evades me. Is it there to provide better scaling with gear?

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New build up. Combustion is revamped and seems to be a damage dealing spell of its own now.

I like the hot streak change, especially for low level mages. Pyroblast as our defining tree spell without hot streak seemed a bit silly. Bbut the necessity for improved hot streak evades me. Is it there to provide better scaling with gear?

Indeed, it seems they have addressed a lot of Fire's concerns in one fell swoop.

Concern 1: Hot streak is cool and I don't want to not be able to cast it at low crit rates.

Solution: Hot streak now has an inherent chance to proc whether or not you 'double' crit. The 'double' crit aspect still remains as an improvement.

Concern 2: Combustion's timing is a bit iffy

Solution: Combustion now does damage and combines dots in one cast (i.e. no need to now cast something else and potentially lose timings).

Concern 3: Flame orb kinda sucks

Solution: Flame orb doesn't have a cast time (not that this makes Flame orb 'not suck', but at least its a start).

Just so we have the list here, here are the fire changes.

Fire

  • Flame Orb no longer has a cast time.

  • Living Bomb now only affect up to 3 enemies.

  • Pyromaniac is now a Tier 6 talent, up from Tier 4.

  • Combustion revamped - Instantly deals 954.57 to 1131.92 Fire damage and combines your Fire damage over time effects on the target into a single effect, burning for the same total damage for 10 sec. 40 yd range, Instant, 2 min cooldown

  • Hot Streak is now a Tier 3 talent, down from Tier 4. Modified - Your spells no longer trigger Arcane Missiles. Instead, your critical strikes with Fireball, Frostfire Bolt, Scorch, or Fire Blast have a chance to cause your next Pyroblast spell cast within 15 sec to be instant cast and cost no mana.

  • Improved Hot Streak Modified - Any time you score 2 non-periodic critical strikes in a row with your Fireball, Frostfire Bolt, Scorch, or Fire Blast spells, you have a 50/100% chance to trigger your Hot Streak effect.

  • Molten Shields is now a Tier 4 talent, up from Tier 3.

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Indeed, it seems they have addressed a lot of Fire's concerns in one fell swoop.

While I do agree with the things you said, namely the hot streak problem and so on, I have to disagree on the fact that it solved all of fire's problems.

First of all, it did not addressed the issue we have on dealing an effective DPS on a single target then on multiple targets. I still agree with the opinion that in fights where movement and AOE will not be a factor, that fire will have a much harder time to shine in its role of DPS. I am also a bit worried about the rotation fire mage will use on a single target. Will it still be FB spam ( with proper refresh of LB ) till HS procs or will we be adding fireblast with its improved crit rating, and also cast on the newly improved Fire orb

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It seems my comments on not needing to watch ignites for the sake of Combustion are now invalid. It's a neat change. I'd like it if its damage component was guaranteed to be critical for the concerns of ignite's short duration. Will suggest it on beta forums once this becomes more than datamined information.

Hot streak is chance on singular crit, guarantee on consecutive crit. Still double RNG either way, but at least we have increased the sources of RNG. This tightens the rotation a tiny bit, being less permissive of late reactions to procs. The single hot streak will have to be used during the flight time of the spell following the proc spell, else you could munch it with the consecutive one. More paying attention, more chances to proc our favorite buff. All good in my opinion.

I wonder how the Living Bomb limit will be enforced. If we cast a 4th will we recieve an error message? Will it remove our first? Does the spell gray out? Is this true of Combusting a Living Bomb? I don't really like restrictions, but I can see why it could be necessary.

Was really expecting to see Pyromaniac disappear. I'm confident that it is there to help on cleave fights. As we know even if you can find 3 sources for Living Bomb it may not be worthwhile to do so - we probably all would have liked to tab around on Lich King or the Iron Council, but Blizzard is capable of throttling us due to necessity. Even with Pyromaniac active you would probably not gain the damage with 10% haste that you lose on a focus target in two globals. One global might do it by the way of Impact, but then the mobs are close together and it probably is a cleave fight where everybody is doing the same. Where it will be up most often is AoE, though as a haste buff it will be of minimal benefit with our myriad of instants, and living bomb thus far not being affected by haste.

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@Elluminea, The change to Living Bomb may not be as you think. Reading the tooltip it says that the explosion is limited to 3 targets. It doesn't actually name a limit for targets it is applied onto. I believe this is just an overall change to hinder the potential for abuse with Impact. Before, we were GCD capped on how many Living Bombs we could have at any one time, but with the new improved impact, there would be nothing to stop us from getting an about to explode LB up on 20+ targets and inflict a completely broken amount of dmg.

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Well, today's build settled my fears about Hot Streak. This is a much more graceful change than the one that I had proposed.

I would still like to see an additional active element in the Fire rotation, however.

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Kalgan from the Beta Mage thread:

In the next beta build combustion's instant damage is guaranteed to crit. Not only does this mean ignite is guaranteed to be instantly re-applied but also that you have a shot at a hot streak to re-apply pyro.

The Hot Streak tooltips on MMO-Champion do not mention this but that doesn't necessarily mean much. This would mean we could have a timeline like:

T+0.0 - Fireball cast complete, start next

T+0.1 - Fireball crits, starts ignite

T+2.5 - Fireball cast complete, cast Combustion which crits, causing Hot Streak

T+2.6 - Fireball hits

Where as long as combustions effect doesn't have a travel time, we should be able to generate Hot Streaks with the ability easily.

On the same subject of Combustion (oh yes, i love this talent), i had an idea for a combustion addon but i'm way better at photoshop than Lua, so here is what i thought about.

I've been putzing around with some simple thoughts on making something similar since Combustion was announced in its DoT combining form. The only difference I had from your basic design was also having a method for estimating the targets time remaining alive based on incoming DPS so you wouldn't pop it at 6 seconds left to live if there could be another target to follow that could take it. Not a hugely important difference but one worth considering in the design phase of such a thing.

I am also a bit worried about the rotation fire mage will use on a single target. Will it still be FB spam ( with proper refresh of LB ) till HS procs or will we be adding fireblast with its improved crit rating, and also cast on the newly improved Fire orb

Fireblasts relative damage output to Fireball is deplorably low even at early spell power levels. Obviously things can change and tweaks can be added, but under current mechanics I wouldn't support using it for anything other than impact spreading DoTs, which conveniently we could do with a Combustion caused hot streak proc, Combustion->HSPyro->Impact FBl.

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@Elluminea, The change to Living Bomb may not be as you think. Reading the tooltip it says that the explosion is limited to 3 targets. It doesn't actually name a limit for targets it is applied onto.

This is how I understood it as well but apparently it is not the case

Testing on sw dummies:

1. When cast on fourth target the lb is removed from target 1 without explosion going off.

2. No, we can still reapply lb but no explosions going off.

3. It spreads to all targets within 12 yards, Using the same formula as in 1 it is removed so only 3 targets are left burning. Meaning the lb on the orignal mob doesnt explode and when you reappy it to the first mob you also remove it from one of the targets it has been spread on. I'm not happy about this mechanic.

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Two confirmations of LBs new behavior from the mage thread:

Confirmation 1: It can only be on three targets at once, casting on a fourth causes whatever the shortest remaining duration one is to be removed. This applies to impact spreading as well.

Confirmation 2: It only hits three targets when it explodes.

Does this mean that its our cleave spell and maybe low target number AoE spell? It may still beat out Flamestrike for a few targets beyond the third, but won't help much on those packs of 40 whelps.

Edit: Actually, can someone confirm my napkin math externally with their own method? I'm showing that the break point between flamestrike and living bomb even with the 3 explosion target limit being around 6 to 7 targets, with the AoE cap at 8 targets this may not change much at all.

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Hitting only up to 3 targets on explosion is really lame. Does SoC for demo hit only 3 targets ? Not that i recall... On a Aoe scenario with clumped targets, using more than 3-4 LB wouldn't be that much useful cause they would explode and need refreshing before you could cast the Flamestrike-Blastwave-Dragon breath sequence entirely.

Removing the ability to spam LB on more than 3 target, i could live with it since we now have other very interesting aoe tools but removing the explosion damage after the third hit is just stupid. In a pack of 9 targets, will the LB explosion hit the ones with lowest life ? Each target will do a /rand and it will pick the 3 lowest ?

---

On using Pyroblast as the Combustion enabling spell, there is something we haven't thought before, i think. When i cast Pyroblast, it's usually right after a fireball (FB1 crit, FB2 crit, FB3 is being cast, i notice hot streak proc, FB3 launch, Pyro launch 0,1secs after). I would have activated Combustion while the Fireball and the pyroblast were mid-air, thus ending with the Fireball activating Combustion mechanic and not Pyroblast as it would land right after the FB.

The only way to use Pyroblast for activating Combustion in a real combat situation would be right after a refresh of Living Bomb, Flamestrike or after a Scorch.

One thing is still possible though, it would be to have the Combustion dot merging to happen 0,5 secs after the Fireball hit, allowing then the pyroblast dot and ignite (in case it crits) to be taken in account. I recall seeing two spells in the database but can't seem to find them again.

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The Hot Streak tooltips on MMO-Champion do not mention this but that doesn't necessarily mean much. This would mean we could have a timeline like:

T+0.0 - Fireball cast complete, start next

T+0.1 - Fireball crits, starts ignite

T+2.5 - Fireball cast complete, cast Combustion which crits, causing Hot Streak

T+2.6 - Fireball hits

Where as long as combustions effect doesn't have a travel time, we should be able to generate Hot Streaks with the ability easily.

As you said, pity that the MMO-Champ tooltips say that hot streak is only procced by Fireball, Frostfire Bolt, Scorch, or Fire Blast.

However, given enough range, haste and reaction speed, you may be able to do a similar thing with Scorch or Fireblast, as they are both instant-hit.

Interestingly, I can't seem to find that +60% scorch crit talent anymore, but Fireblast apparently has a talent that increases it's crit chance by 4000%...

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Interestingly, I can't seem to find that +60% scorch crit talent anymore, but Fireblast apparently has a talent that increases it's crit chance by 4000%...

The scorch crit chance talent disappeared a while ago, Imp Fireblast is 4/8% currently with a range increase.

edit: To answer the below, it never has.

There was a period where the *graphic* for the orb had tendrils touching everything around it, but it only actually did damage to one target. It never has actually done AoE damage, and all the posts from Blizzard have been consistent with it being intended to be a single target at a time spell only.

The quote from GC that seems to have created the belief that it is meant to be AoE really doesn't say that it is:

It will be balanced for single-target damage, but if you can launch it in such a way that it will hit multiple targets, then you’re just being awesome.

It just means its able to pass by one target and start hitting another if you are creative in how you aim it. You aren't 'being awesome' if you hit more than one target with a spell that is always intended to be used on more than one target.

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Is it me or is flame orb not an aoe anymore since a few builds ago? The tooltip says it deals damage to the closest target.

EDIT: And here comes a completely unrelated thought: I think alot of people are rightly complaining about the very static fire rotation. With less hot streaks we're looking at a static fireball / lb / combustion rotation.

I don't care that much personally but it'd be nice to spice it up a little.

Why not make glyphed FFB a part of the fire rotation? It is currently only used by frost to my knowledge. If the dot component is decent along with maybe a cooldown on the spell alá mindblast.. wouldn't that solve plenty of stuff with one stone?

* FFB gets a role for both fire and frost which is nice and all since FFB spec died with talent revamp.

* The fire rotation gets a bit more interesting.

* fire pvp gets a decent damage medium cast nuke (assuming the damage were to go up along with the cd)

This would of course have to be carefully balanced as to not mess up the frost rotation... Fire talents could change the spell in alot of ways.

As I said, this is not something I have given alot of thought or something I'm too fuzzed about. I just feel that fire pvp has been missing a medium cast nuke which can pack a punch (unless flame orb will fill this role). And I also dislike the notion of FFB being useless to fire.

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A short test I've done courtesy of free scorch indicates a ~42.5% chance for Hot Streak without the Improved talent, namely 174 scorch crits were cast and 74 Hot Streak procs recorded. I basically stood in one place and spam casted scorch, without using any other spell including Pyroblast (improved talent wasn't taken).

I'll do some more tests with the Improved Hot Streak, also Ignite is still bugged even in such simple conditions when there is no flight time to consider, by bugged I mean sometimes the damage isn't calculated properly i.e. it gets swallowed somehow related to when it's going to tick and when the crit happens.

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A short test I've done courtesy of free scorch indicates a ~42.5% chance for Hot Streak without the Improved talent, namely 174 scorch crits were cast and 74 Hot Streak procs recorded. I basically stood in one place and spam casted scorch, without using any other spell including Pyroblast (improved talent wasn't taken).

Out of curiosity, how did you record the number of procs? Did this method of testing either cancel the buff or count refresh events as well as proc events?

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Why not make glyphed FFB a part of the fire rotation?

They did mention not wanting glyphs to change rotations. Other than that, it could be a decent solution to make FFB more useful again. If it had a Mind Blast-like cooldown it would also not mess up frost too much because the chance of getting two Brain Freeze procs in, say, 6 seconds is quite low (don't really have time do to the math, but it's not relevant anyway).

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Out of curiosity, how did you record the number of procs? Did this method of testing either cancel the buff or count refresh events as well as proc events?
Yes, counting SPELL_AURA_APPLIED and SPELL_AURA_REFRESH. I'm using LogParser to parse the combat logs, making it extremely easy to do.

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Well, today's build settled my fears about Hot Streak. This is a much more graceful change than the one that I had proposed.

I would still like to see an additional active element in the Fire rotation, however.

I agree with you, it did in fact settle the fears about the hotstreak talent which we all enjoy. But you are right about the fire rotations. I still fear it is still the same rotation on a single as WOTLK with the addition of the fire orb. I currently enjoy the build for massive aoe damage, but fear for the uses of many of the talents on a single target.

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One change that hasn't been mentioned yet is the "Impact" proc now has a Graphical Aura Overlay, much like Hot Streak and Fingers of Frost. This should reduce the annoyance of sifting through numerous buffs to check for the proc (or relying on Power Auras) - for what is shaping up to be a key mechanic for fire AOE. Video is here,

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I have no problem with Frostfire Bolt as a spell. The problem with adding glyphed Frostfire Bolt to Fire's rotation is that it doesn't really change much. With a nine-second duration on the DoT, combined with the global cooldown from Living Bomb and Frostfire Bolt's 2.5 second cast time, we find ourselves in a situation in which we want to refresh the DoT one second after Living Bomb explodes--or, in other words, .5 seconds before we can start casting Frostfire Bolt. In effect, it would just mean that we press two buttons instead of one, then go back to spamming Fireball.

Additionally, we would not be able to cast Frostfire Bolt for maximum efficiency--to do so, we would have to start casting it 1.5 seconds before Living Bomb explodes, which would force us to refresh Living Bomb a second late. Napkin math tells me that one second of the Living Bomb DoT is worth more than three seconds of the Frostfire Bolt DoT, so, we probably do not want to make this choice.

Besides, glyphing in a DoT just seems to be a really clunky way to alter Fire's rotation. I would not object to the Frostfire Bolt glyph at all if we had some other reason to be casting the spell. Or if we gained some additional benefit from having DoTs on the target, like the previous form of Critical Mass. In the first case, the Frostfire glyph is a way to get more damage on a spell that you already want to cast. In the second case, the Frostfire glyph is a way to maximize the potential of one of your talents. In both cases, we are gaining a benefit to something that we already have, not just adding damage to a spell that we would not otherwise cast.

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I´s say the simplest way to make FFB a spell used by both fire and frost is to simply add a fire talent that boosts it somehow. For example manipulate the dot so FFB deals more damage than fireball but only if you let the full dot run its course. That way FFB would remain the same for frost (Im under the impression that its in a pretty good spot atm right?) and firemages would want to weave it into our single target rotation. Also it would fit right into the fire theme of dot management.

Edit: Regarding FFB just being one more button to press if it was in our interest to cast it, well... we can´t have it both ways. If we want more than just FB spam we need to be casting something else, and that spell is generally not going to be Scorch, that leaves either hoping for a brand new fire nuke or making an existing one interesting. Well I guess some kind of proc to watch would be a possible solution too, but personally I´d prefer a simple solution like a powerfull dot on FFB. Its not an unreasonable change to hope for till launch and it adresses one of our remaining problems.

Regarding iffy timing between chosing if you want to renew living bomb or FFB I really dont see a problem. Renewing one of them will generally be better and that will be easy to keep in mind. Also remember that this theory will only be relevant on perfectly executed static fights where we stand in one spot nuking our guts out, and that just isn´t the reality of wow very often. Add a bit of movement where you opted to cast a Scorch instead and that seccond of dottime running out is simply gonna happen. Only thing to do is make an on the fly decision what to reapply first and that sounds like a fun method for being a good mage to me.

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I'm all up for more involving rotation however one thing you're all ignoring is that dots are not always a good thing. In a way the more dots your dps is combined from the worse you'll be doing on short fights / adds.

Even at the moment fire isn't very good on adds due to ignite being back-loaded and living bomb/pyro dots; adding yet another spell we use for it's dot would not help. Considering our mastery affects our dots I can see how glad fire mages will be to switch to short lived adds, something like LDW just without the AoE spam.

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That issue is however harder to adress without giving firemages a new spell which at this point isn´t very likely, or a talent to make FFB instant cast but add a cooldown would help us burst on adds. But I doubt blizzard would want to give us something so similar to Arcane Barrage.

Don´t get me wrong, I agree that handling extra ads would be worth looking at. However the main rotation on single target DPS greatly overshadows that problem since using our rotation is something we will be doing all the time while adds is something that happens sometimes. Also its only for when there is just one add that dies somewhat quickly we lack tools.

For when there are two or more ads we have an available talent to help us with.

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