Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Zeldyrr

Frost Cataclysm Discussion [4.0 thread]

374 posts in this topic

If we put the debuff and numbers of RoF (I like the ring to that) aside, how much of the visual details is implemented so far?

We can probably make an educated guess of the intended functionallity of the spell from the visual feel of it provided that its implemented. From reading the description it sounds a bit like that frost spell naga sirens in zangarmarch cast. A ring of ice slowly forms and if you´re still in it when complete you basicly got rooted with some damage slapped on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RoF basically functions like a 10 sec Deep Freeze on anyone who crosses the ring. Of course it can be dispelled.

People have to remember that with the cata design you won't be zerging down people in under 10 seconds, so CC isn't quite as potent as it is now in achieving quick kills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone know if it´s affected by dimishing returns? If you manage to freeze some poor bugger the 10 sec can be extended to 20 if he/she doesn´t get help from outside. And even more than that since you can slap on regular deep freezes into one big ice prison trap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's worth noting that the Freezing Trap effect also applies "stunned" and "frozen" debuffs, but of course break on damage, unlike Deep Freeze. No telling yet which effect Ring of Frost behaves like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As Arch noted in the Fire thread, there's a new Frostfire Glyph.

Increases the damage done by you Frostfire Bolt by 15% and your Frostfire Bolt now deals 3% additional damage over 12 sec, stacking up to 3 times, but no longer reduces the victim's movement speed.

Source: cata.wowhead.com

This could potentially be a concern with the Frost rotation. Is this glyph enough to displace frostbolt as the main nuke for frost? On a minor note, does this change the glyph priority for frost?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As Arch noted in the Fire thread, there's a new Frostfire Glyph.

This could potentially be a concern with the Frost rotation. Is this glyph enough to displace frostbolt as the main nuke for frost? On a minor note, does this change the glyph priority for frost?

If glyphed FFB doesn't proc Fof i don't see the problem. That's a big if though, since the current Frostbolt glyph does let you proc it.

edit: now that i think about it, even with fof procs it wouldn't be too messy because, assuming the dot ticks every 3 seconds, you only see it benefitting you if you are not spamming ffb. In other words you would stack the dot to 3, refresh it if bf doesn't proc, else go about your normal rotation. At least that's what i think they are trying to achieve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That glyph surprises me, because unglyphed FFB now does virtually identical damage to unglyphed Fireball -- same coefficient, and base damage is off by single digits. That seems dramatically overpowered, and way beyond what is necessary to allow the glyph to be a toggle for a Fire Mage who prefers to cast FFB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The new Ring of Frost certainly looks closer to its namesake now: YouTube - World of Warcraft Cataclysm Beta - New Ring of Frost Animation September 26, 2010 (HD 1080p) .

Is there any indication whether the spell will be given a more compelling PvE role? I understand their focus might be to simply get mechanics into place first, and worry about PvE role later. Given that mechanics are closer to being finalised, now would be a good time to discuss the latter.

Deep Freeze is the prime example of how spells like this can still get a compelling PvE use. Ring of Frost might occasionally find its PvP freeze utility useful in fights with adds, though the cooldown is too prohibitive - and those add style fights generally have more than one wave anyway: Deathwhisper, Deathinger, Freya etc.

What are some innovative ways Blizzard could tie Ring of Frost back into compelling PvE role? For example, perhaps via a Glyph which said, "Your Ring of Frost no longer Freezes targets. Instead, when standing inside your own Ring of Frost, all spells you cast which cross through the Ring are empowered by Frost, causing an additional X% damage as Frost damage". Something that plays off having things inside or outside the ring in PvE. In this example, you were giving up the PvP stun utility in exchange for PvE usage (damage) - but keeping the theme of the spell being a ring and the real estate inside it being important (instead of being a deterrant for enemies to walk into, it's an incitement for the caster to stand in the ring).

My other concern with this spell is the cooldown. A 2 minute cooldown, balanced by reducing the duration of the Ring itself seems much more appropriate. After enjoying 1 minute Flame Orb cooldowns, having another 3 minute spell added seems a little too gimmicky by comparison. One minute spell cooldowns feel like a much a more enjoyable model, especially when RoF doesn't have a compelling PvE usage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been playing with frost on the PTR (4.x) and I've been pleasantly surprised, although fire is definitely more damage (and more work). Fire is definitely favoring AoE centric rotations with Fireblast and Pyromaniac's speed increase, etc... which I think will hurt the spec during the level 85 instances. From what I've been reading about tanking getting reworked and the game getting more back to DPS having to pay attention / focus on the tanks target (which, generally I would hope DPS would do anyway instead of just facerolling through everything), fire is going to appear to get itself more in trouble... especially now that blastwave, flamestrike, and dragon's breath can easily become part of the rotation (and generally require you to be a bit closer... I know when I was running instances with it I would constantly get myself killed even at 80 because of the lack of self restraint (although I chocked it up to wanting to 'test' the new fire spec).

On the Dummies I'm pulling around 8-9k as frost and 11-12k as fire... I admittedly out of practice with frost, but that seems pretty solid to me, and single target would again, probably work well in it's favor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is there any indication whether the spell will be given a more compelling PvE role? I understand their focus might be to simply get mechanics into place first, and worry about PvE role later. Given that mechanics are closer to being finalised, now would be a good time to discuss the latter.

I think it provides a great opportunity to choke together small adds for a tank to grab before an AoE starts assuming they come from a single general direction in a quick burst. Imagine the zombie train in Strat right after Ramstein dies, drop RoF in front of them, let them all train into it and get stuck, and then go to town.

Is this "compelling"? Not hugely, but I think it could be quite utilitarian depending on how opponents spawn in a given situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the latest Early Frost change, this talent becomes a problem in PVE with many haste.

Also, as Lhivera stated, this talent depends on haste and becomes weaker with more haste.

Early Frost: < 1% DPS @ 2 talent points

Question: What happens if we can make this talent or maybe the tree haste independet?

Idea: Add a talent that converts haste direct into damage (1% haste = 1% damage). Instead of the cast time reduction the spell damage will be increased.

This results in:

Early frost has then a stable DPS. PvP can use this talent as R1 FB and PVE has no problem with haste.

Does not influence PvP (same DPS).

Mana efficieny is better.

Latency effect is smaller.

Frost does not have a haste cap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Since the latest Early Frost change, this talent becomes a problem in PVE with many haste.

Also, as Lhivera stated, this talent depends on haste and becomes weaker with more haste.

Question: What happens if we can make this talent or maybe the tree haste independet?

Idea: Add a talent that converts haste direct into damage (1% haste = 1% damage). Instead of the cast time reduction the spell damage will be increased.

This results in:

Early frost has then a stable DPS. PvP can use this talent as R1 FB and PVE has no problem with haste.

Does not influence PvP (same DPS).

Mana efficieny is better.

Latency effect is smaller.

Frost does not have a haste cap.

Are you proposing that frost be given a talent that converts an entire stat into another stat just to make another talent less clumsy in pve? When it comes to things like early frost and ring of frost, I'm perfectly fine if neither are ideal for pve, as long as they have a use in the pvp part of the game. There are plenty of great frost talents, and I like having several points to subspec.

Speaking for myself only, I think some of the concern about ring of frost is due to the fact that it doesn't really add to AoE for any spec. I like the cooldown, duration, and functionionality for battlegrounds, but when "wall of fog" was first announced I was hoping for a significant damaging AoE reminiscent of the wall of fire spells from diablo and other spells. A linear consecration, if you will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are you proposing that frost be given a talent that converts an entire stat into another stat just to make another talent less clumsy in pve? When it comes to things like early frost and ring of frost, I'm perfectly fine if neither are ideal for pve, as long as they have a use in the pvp part of the game. There are plenty of great frost talents, and I like having several points to subspec.

This.

I don't understand the endless pages of fuss over Early Frost. The other trees have similar talents at the top of their trees that have little or no use in a PvE environment. Improved Counterspell in Arcane is obviously a PvP talent. Arcane mages won't spec it. Likewise, Frost mages need not spec Early Frost on the same basis, especially if it creates GCD issues and is next to no dps.

That said, as a PvP ability, if it is intended to replace downranking, I don't see why it can't be an 'on use' trick rather than automatic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are three main things I am worried about with frost: diminishing returns, damage break on freezes and aggro switch on freezes. Mastery leans on targets being frozen. We have fingers of frost for single targets but in an aoe situation there is no way to keep targets frozen even for a full gcd. Even improved CoC breaks on damage which was surprising. Even if the current freezes did not break on damage they would be discouraged because of of possible aggro loss by the tank. Frost aoe would be much more dynamic if you had to balance freeze status with blizzard casts by using CoC, frost nova and freeze.

Deep freeze becomes pretty worthless on stunnable mobs especially if there is more than one frost mage in the group due to diminishing returns. I don't have numbers but I have noticed my dps rise significantly when I work deep freeze into my rotation even on stunnable targets so I don't think this is an issue blizz should shrug off. Even if they tune other ablities to compensate it removes an interesting part the frost rotation when fighting stunnable mobs. Also I have not run into this in a long time (might be fixed) but I have gotten immune messages on stun-proof mobs when using deep freeze, in a group with another frost mage. (and using cold snap for 2 DFs in a row). I believe this is due to a bug when diminishing returns are still applied to deep freeze even when it is not stunning the target and eventually that target becomes "immune" to that ability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That said, as a PvP ability, if it is intended to replace downranking, I don't see why it can't be an 'on use' trick rather than automatic.

I agree. It would have a greater utility in levelling as well (as a first rank talent you can get it pretty early), where you generally don't care how long your opener takes to cast but being able to drop a quick snare on a second mob for example is immensely valuable. In fact I guess for some encounters (say where add control is required) a controllable early frost might even find a place in endgame PVE builds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We have fingers of frost for single targets but in an aoe situation there is no way to keep targets frozen even for a full gcd.

Technically speaking, Squirtle's Freeze does not require a GCD from you and is your most effective method of freezing targets for AoE.

Even if the current freezes did not break on damage they would be discouraged because of of possible aggro loss by the tank.

There's also the high possibility of a rooted mob turning around and smacking the Rogue (or the warlock pet, but we meant to do that).

I'm assuming Blizzard is going to be balanced primarily around hitting targets that are not frozen. If it falls behind, they can probably bump up the damage safely or add the spell to Fingers of Frost. I'd rather save my freezes for actual control than for boosting the damage of AoE to acceptable levels.

Deep freeze becomes pretty worthless on stunnable mobs especially if there is more than one frost mage in the group due to diminishing returns.

This has been said elsewhere a number of times, but it bares repeating: stunning mobs isn't a bad thing. If a mob is stunnable, then Blizzard intended for tossing a stun at it to be profitable in some sense. Sure, you're not going to get your 50k Deep Freeze crit in, but that's 5 seconds where the mob isn't smacking the tank while enraged, casting a big heal or lobbing a fireball at the Shaman.

Take the Valithiria encounter for example. The Archmages can be stunned and you want them to be stunned. Deep Freeze can lock them down from casting their Volley. The Blazing Skellies can't be stunned but you want to burn down immediately. Honestly, I've gone through all of ICC as Frost and the only time I wanted Deep Freeze to do damage and it didn't was on the Frost Tombs in Sindragosa (this was more a problem with the mob than the spell though.. as it was unstunnable but not technically "immune").

All that aside: it's trash. Don't worry about it.

Also I have not run into this in a long time (might be fixed) but I have gotten immune messages on stun-proof mobs when using deep freeze, in a group with another frost mage.

This isn't a problem with there being another Frost Mage: this is a problem with Deep Freeze since its inception as a damage attack. The "Immune" message will pop up every time you use it and it does damage. The "Immune" message is for the stun (the damage still happens). There is no diminishing returns for the damage portion of Deep Freeze. Yes, it is annoying. Yes, I want it gone. No, it is not more important than getting a giant icey explosion particle effect when Deep Freeze does damage *crosses fingers*.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deep freeze becomes pretty worthless on stunnable mobs especially if there is more than one frost mage in the group due to diminishing returns. I don't have numbers but I have noticed my dps rise significantly when I work deep freeze into my rotation even on stunnable targets so I don't think this is an issue blizz should shrug off. Even if they tune other ablities to compensate it removes an interesting part the frost rotation when fighting stunnable mobs.

If what you say is true and your DPS goes up, then so long as you don't both cast Deep Freeze simultaneously, reaching the diminishing return limit should mean your DPS increased further, because that means there was more Deep Freeze uptime than you could possibly have done alone. Especially true because you can keep pumping Frostbolts into the target during the other mage's Deep Freeze.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not complaining about deep freeze not doing damage on stunnable mobs. You gain dps from the 5 seconds of freeze status which from my experience is worth the gcd (no numbers to support this though). What I am complaining about is the lost dps due to diminishing returns on stuns. Depending on how many other players are stunning a mob my deep freeze may last on 1-3 sec or be immune altogether.

As for aoe; sure Blizzard could tune blizzard to match other class/spec's dps but then the casting dynamic becomes flat and boring. It seems from the new mechanics that their intention is for mobs to be frozen during an aoe rotation. If this is the case they need to at least fix the "break on damage" mechanic for at least some of the freeze spells as now they vanish almost immediately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most specs have boring and dull aoes.

Hunters / rogues / warlocks / kitties spam the same spell over and over again (kitties sometime try to maintain Savage Roar up, but that really depends on the encounter).

Paladins / warriors have (nearly) the same rotation for aoe and single target damage.

Priest usely spam the same spell, sometimes also multidot.

I don't know for shamans, nor for DK or boomkin.

The only interesting aoe I know about is cataclysm fire aoe, which uses several spells and interactions. And that's clearly the exception, not frost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been playing some bosses in ICC as frost lately (just for some new experience) and I wonder if some of you noticed that you can DF stun-immune bosses without actually doing damage. This happens because DF does not need a LoS to be executed, however, it requires a LoS to do damage. Can someone verify, if this behaviour is still the same on the Beta-Server?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some pretty interesting changes to Ring of Frost lately:

- Animation improved:

- RoF in action:

- 2 minute cooldown

- Ring of Frost targets treated as Frozen

- Ring of Frost targets interact with Shatter and Frostburn

- Freeze effect now breaks after moderate damage, not after any damage like the previous builds.

These are certainly sweeping improvements. The graphic now looks complete, and has come such a long way from that embarassing line on the ground it used to be. The shorter cooldown feels more appropriate, striking a better balance between 'use liberally' and 'save only for emergencies'.

(Edit - Some of this paragraph is inaccurate. Mobs appear to break on damage, dummies do not). The most interesting change however, is that PVE mobs will get stuck in the freeze and damage won't break them out. With a 2 minute cooldown usable every couple trash packs, this is pretty powerful. A Frost Mage could even Cold Snap + Ring of Frost Freeze mobs for 24 seconds.

I'm now in two minds about the 'ROF needs a more compelling use in PvE, outside of gimmick/situational uses' argument - because its current incarnation is damn strong, and with a 2 minute cooldown, one could easily overlook other shortcomings.

I feel the base spell is pretty much complete. All that's needed now is a couple Glyphs which allow players to tweak RoF slightly - according to their personal preferences. For example, a PvP Glyph which reduced the 3 second coalescence time to 1 or 2 seconds. Or maybe a PvE Glyph which removed the Freeze effect, and instead allowed the spell to do damage to mobs on contact (for raid bosses). But the base spell itself is pretty impressive now.

We also need to compile a list of abilities which can negate Ring of Frost, such as Heroic Leap or Demonic Portal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As most of you know I made a list of most of the abilities classes can use to avoid RoF. The post is located here

Because of time I won't be retesting them all of them again with the new patch 13117.

- Freeze effect on PvE mobs does not break with any damage. Breaks after 20-30k damage in PvP.

Have you tested this yourself? I havn't tested this enough yet, but it seemed that RoF breaks at 5-10k and frostnova, hex at 20-30k. Mind you this is a very rough test.

I feel the base spell is pretty much complete. All that's needed now is a couple Glyphs which allow players to tweak RoF slightly - according to their personal preferences. For example, a PvP Glyph which reduced the 3 second coalescence time to 1 or 2 seconds. Or maybe a PvE Glyph which removed the Freeze effect, and instead allowed the spell to do damage to mobs on contact (for raid bosses). But the base spell itself is pretty impressive now.

I agree with you that the spell is pretty much complete. I do believe blizzard doesn't want to implement glyphs for any of the new spells introduced in Cataclysm. Ofcourse there can be exceptions but I don't expect a glyph that reduces the Coalescent effect from 3 to 2 seconds. If they would make a glyph for the spell I'd see it in a form that allows RoF to be used in certain Arena teams (like polymorph glyph did) or make it do damage if the target is immune in pve. I do however think it's not needed for it to deal deal damage in raids, unless all trash and AoE encounters are immune to the Iced effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears that ROF functions differently on dummies to normal PVE mobs. I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard decided not to implement new Glyphs for Cata spells, as you said, But I think the best way to approach a PvE focused RoF Glyph would be to give it an additional effect when cast around the Mage. Something such as, "When standing within your own Ring of Frost, X happens".

Given other classes' utility abilities such as Smoke Bomb, it's hard to imagine Blizzard wouldn't go out of their way a little to design encounters which let these abilities shine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm having a hard time figuring out the damage breaking point on frostnova and RoF. I don't believe there is adifference in it between pve and pvp.

I expect it to be working either in the following way:

- the Breaking point is based on the maximum health of the mob

- After a certain amount have damage has been dealt, the chance of breaking it earlier is increased.

or

- the breaking point is based on the level of the mob

- After a certain amount have damage has been dealt, the chance of breaking it earlier is increased.

While testing I was sometimes able to put out 3noncrit Icelances (as firespec) and sometimes 4. The higher lvl mob I sought out the higher the chances of getting extra Ice Lances of. On the lvl 85 mob I was even able to get 5 Ice Lances which was about the same duration as the Frostnova itself. These 5 Ice Lances happened quite often. RoF breaking point is definitely lower than frostnova.

MY Icelances did about 3700-4000 damage. During my tests I got the feeling Flame Orb doesn't break any of the effects while doing damage, not sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to start to morph this thread from "how is it looking in beta" mode to to "how is frost behaving on live" mode as patches 4.0.1 and 4.03 are released. I've updated the original post to include a section on the three new mages spells and how they interact with frost talents.

I would also like to add sections on coefficients (as they stabilize) and suggested talent builds, with required and optional points. If people could reply here with such information I will check for accuracy/consistency and summarize in the original post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.