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Guild Vaults. A sad anecdote with discussion to follow

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Although I can see the need for a centralized guild bank, if I had to guess why it's not in the game yet, I'd say it's probably because such a thing brings with it a lot of issues for which there is no clear resolution. Sure, it might seem that anything is preferable to having to constantly switch characters, shunt stuff around, update "guild bank contents" threads, but consider these questions:

1) Who is "in control" of the guild bank? No matter who the people are that can withdraw items, who will control them and make sure that they don't do anything wrong? Not to mention that no matter what rules you put on it, the only one with any "real" degree of control over who gets access is the GM.

2) What happens if your guild disbands? Does the bank cease to exist? Does the GM get everything in the bank sent to him? Do the officers? Does it get divided "equally" among all the guild members?

3) One of the arguments being presented here for a guild bank is some sort of "insurance" against greedy/malicious GMs and officers. Seems to me, though, that with bank access there's the presumption that those who can access it are "worthy." If you go on a raid and someone ninjas your loot because you left it on FFA, do you get it back? No. I can't see Blizzard restoring bank items simply because an officer turned out to be a ninja.

4) If a guild bank belongs "to the guild," and the officers decide, after a year of guild bank building, to boot everyone in the guild and start over, what then? The guild still exists, but it's really not the same guild, and the people who got booted don't get any benefit from the contents of the guild bank, even though they worked for it. Again, there isn't really an optimal way of implementing this fairly.

I suppose that it seems to me that although a guild bank would make a lot of things easier, I don't think it would make them any fairer or safer.

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In real life the only way to have accountability for things like corporations is the law and the judiciary system. These things will not be implemented in the game so you will always end up with situations like this regardless of what systems Blizzard builds into the game. While I would personally like a better guild bank system for the sake of convenience, it can in no way act as a security system.

I would second the opinions earlier in the thread that it would be better for Blizzard to simply reduce the reliance on centralizing assets, which they at least seem to have done so far with the lack of any tokens.

Despite some peoples' beliefs, it IS possible to operate without a guild bank, or at least a very very thin guild bank. My guild progressed through Thaddius before the expansion with the guild bank maxing out at around 3k gold. We had a lot of consumables that were funded by material send-ins but they were distributed pretty much as fast as they were turned in thus there was no large central repository. We did of course have to guild bank things like bijous, coins, frozen runes, etc.

Since the expansion has come out we've barely had a guild bank. I suppose that's not saying much since there hasn't been a whole lot of raiding content, but we've still had to burn a lot of consumables to kill Gruul pre-patch and begin building the expensive resist gear for Hydross. Not only that but there is no way for our guild bank to make gold aside from a few sales of Void Crystals. We operate by a very fluid flow of materials between our dedicated guild members and the people with professions to make what's needed without a large repository ending up in any one person's hands. It's been working out fine for us.

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I've never been a fan of guild banks. I can see that some items like coins and bijoux were clearly intended to be centrally collected and distributed but even there there are alternatives

First off, what's the point of accruing gold in the bank? Why do you need money at all? When do you need to make purchases as a guild? I imagine people usually keep some centralised gold to buy up Dreamfoil and Flasks but it's an inferior system to assigning individual responsibility. To my mind a guild simply does not need to buy anything at all ever after it's designed its tabard

If a player has to bring 5 mana potions to each raid they can shop on the AH, or they can herb or their alt can herb etc. The overall cost for 15 players to furnish 5 mana potions is less than if a centralised fund buys 5 *15 mana potions. It does need either trust or enforcement but that's another matter. (As an aside is there an add-on that checks people's stocks of potions? I know CT has functionalty for checking reagents)

The gold goes somewhere. If you lock up 50K in gold and a further 100K in assets that's a lot of gold that could have been used to provide consumables for progress. You banked it so you didn't get the progress, you got overloaded mules instead. Straight trade-off.

Many raiders complain that it's simply too hard to keep up with the consumable cost of raiding. As a guild they have (in this example) earned 150K gold that could have been shared among the players for them to make money on rather than hoarded. Gold banked is healers without mana

Individual players tend to be much more efficient at realising capital than guild bankers. Raid roll an unwanted BOE epic. You can bet it will be on the AH later that evening for a fat sum with some spam in trade channel to help the sale. Mule it to a guild bank and it will receive less individual care. Either it will be listed cheap because it's a pain when auctions fail if you have dozens of auctions or it may be unsold, sitting on a mule for months until new content or dishonest officers remove its value

Even crafter reagents like MC cores can be raid rolled and auctioned off. Instead of saving reagents to make crafted items the players who need them buy the reagents and get a combine done by a guild crafter. This approach is probably unwise when you're first gearing up tanks but after that just get the stuff sold, and get cash in people's pockets. Then if a Rogue wants a Lava Belt he can buy/trade the cores off other raiders or the AH

At the end of the day if raiders earn loot then muling it is unfair on them since they will often receive no gain from the item they caused the program to generate. Keep banking minimal!

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I've never been a fan of guild banks. I can see that some items like coins and bijoux were clearly intended to be centrally collected and distributed but even there there are alternatives

First off, what's the point of accruing gold in the bank? Why do you need money at all? When do you need to make purchases as a guild? I imagine people usually keep some centralised gold to buy up Dreamfoil and Flasks but it's an inferior system to assigning individual responsibility. To my mind a guild simply does not need to buy anything at all ever after it's designed its tabard

If a player has to bring 5 mana potions to each raid they can shop on the AH, or they can herb or their alt can herb etc. The overall cost for 15 players to furnish 5 mana potions is less than if a centralised fund buys 5 *15 mana potions. It does need either trust or enforcement but that's another matter. (As an aside is there an add-on that checks people's stocks of potions? I know CT has functionalty for checking reagents)

The gold goes somewhere. If you lock up 50K in gold and a further 100K in assets that's a lot of gold that could have been used to provide consumables for progress. You banked it so you didn't get the progress, you got overloaded mules instead. Straight trade-off.

Many raiders complain that it's simply too hard to keep up with the consumable cost of raiding. As a guild they have (in this example) earned 150K gold that could have been shared among the players for them to make money on rather than hoarded. Gold banked is healers without mana

Individual players tend to be much more efficient at realising capital than guild bankers. Raid roll an unwanted BOE epic. You can bet it will be on the AH later that evening for a fat sum with some spam in trade channel to help the sale. Mule it to a guild bank and it will receive less individual care. Either it will be listed cheap because it's a pain when auctions fail if you have dozens of auctions or it may be unsold, sitting on a mule for months until new content or dishonest officers remove its value

Even crafter reagents like MC cores can be raid rolled and auctioned off. Instead of saving reagents to make crafted items the players who need them buy the reagents and get a combine done by a guild crafter. This approach is probably unwise when you're first gearing up tanks but after that just get the stuff sold, and get cash in people's pockets. Then if a Rogue wants a Lava Belt he can buy/trade the cores off other raiders or the AH

At the end of the day if raiders earn loot then muling it is unfair on them since they will often receive no gain from the item they caused the program to generate. Keep banking minimal!

You put way too much faith in individual players, overlook the fact that not everyone plays forever (what, are you going to ask someone who quits for their gold back so it can be redistributed?), and really don't understand how guild banks were used (pre-TBC at least).

Just an example, we spent 2-4k gold per week throughout Naxx on various stuff, used the materials on the banks to supply extra potions in the event that we needed them. Not sure if our bank was similar to anyone elses, as I don't think we managed it as well as we probably could have, but we spent atleast 20-30k gold overall in Naxx.

In addition, things such as MC BoE's, and materials that were outdated were sold efficiently with little effort, with no risk of gold disappearing from their sales when people quit, etc. Not sure if you've ever lead a guild, or ran a guild bank, but what you say really wouldn't be practical.

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really don't understand how guild banks were used (pre-TBC at least).

Just an example, [example of using guild bank to buy potions in the way I described].

Erm, I don't think you read my post :-)

I have run a guild but I really don't think that matters

What exactly is it your guild bank did that was worth the members of your guild being several hundred gold poorer? Could they have done it themselves individually and severally or did they absolutely need to be mothered?

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Erm, I don't think you read my post :-)

I have run a guild but I really don't think that matters

What exactly is it your guild bank did that was worth the members of your guild being several hundred gold poorer? Could they have done it themselves individually and severally or did they absolutely need to be mothered?

Except, it wasn't an example of what you posted. Everyone brought their own pots, with no guild bank help. However, if we were learning something, the bank would bring a surplus of pots so that we could continue attempting even after individuals ran out, as well as the necessities such as Stoneshields, greater armor, tank flasks etc.

Maybe I was just thrown by you saying

Why do you need money at all? When do you need to make purchases as a guild?

because there is no way that dividing money / materials up amongst guild members would have allowed us to complete Naxx as efficiently as having it in a centralized bank. And no, not every member could have done it individually, nor can you really expect them to.

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Erm, I don't think you read my post :-)

I have run a guild but I really don't think that matters

What exactly is it your guild bank did that was worth the members of your guild being several hundred gold poorer? Could they have done it themselves individually and severally or did they absolutely need to be mothered?

I'd hate being the MT in that guild. "I hope you have farmed all your resistance gear and have enough flasks for four raids this week."

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I'd hate being the MT in that guild. "I hope you have farmed all your resistance gear and have enough flasks for four raids this week."

Well it wasn't quite that bad. Requirements like that we met on a rota (and I should qualify that it was not WoW but a different MMO)

Division of labour isn't really hard my point was more about the locking up of capital. The value of anything that is banked is nil until it gets used or sold. It's not just the security angle that was stressed in the original post here. Economically these typical huge WoW raid guild banks with great stocks of rare and valuable resources are a drain on the economy of the raid guild

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There is definitely room to argue to what extent you need a guild bank. I do not think you can argue the fact that you do need one though. That someone in the guild, or multiple someones, has/have to be trusted with some amount of assets and that those assets have a worth.

In our case, clearly we fucked up. We banked too much, did not distribute it back to members fast enough and, most of all, trusted the wrong guy.

I still do not see how Blizzard can have a system that requires a guild bank and then on the other hand claim no responsibility for the repercussions of such a system. And maybe they came to a similar realization, as many people have commented, there is less of a need for centralized banking in WoW 2.0. At least so far.

Still, these items have real world value and I think it could easily be argued that a crime was committed. I dont mean to be overly dramatic and of course its not the same as if 50 peole had their wallets stolen, but we lost things that have real world value and we know who took them. Blizzard ought to do something about it. Its a black and white issue, there is no grey area here.

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I'd hate being the MT in that guild. "I hope you have farmed all your resistance gear and have enough flasks for four raids this week."

Exactly. Supplying my own stoneshields and elixirs for a night of learning attempts on Nightbane was taxing enough. Supplying the same consumables every night for a week of hard wiping plus flasks? I don't even want to think about it.

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Economically these typical huge WoW raid guild banks with great stocks of rare and valuable resources are a drain on the economy of the raid guild

Again, you assume a lot about "typical" guild banks. Even lower end guilds that I've encountered manage their guild banks fairly well. The horror stories like the one in this thread are the minority, not the majority.

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There is definitely room to argue to what extent you need a guild bank. I do not think you can argue the fact that you do need one though. That someone in the guild, or multiple someones, has/have to be trusted with some amount of assets and that those assets have a worth.

In our case, clearly we fucked up. We banked too much, did not distribute it back to members fast enough and, most of all, trusted the wrong guy.

I still do not see how Blizzard can have a system that requires a guild bank and then on the other hand claim no responsibility for the repercussions of such a system. And maybe they came to a similar realization, as many people have commented, there is less of a need for centralized banking in WoW 2.0. At least so far.

Still, these items have real world value and I think it could easily be argued that a crime was committed. I dont mean to be overly dramatic and of course its not the same as if 50 peole had their wallets stolen, but we lost things that have real world value and we know who took them. Blizzard ought to do something about it. Its a black and white issue, there is no grey area here.

II’m not so sure its as black and white as you make it out to be. Not at all to make light of your situation at all which sounds like it sucks.

But from Blizzards end this is what they know.

Character X on your account, has 5k or more worth of gold and high end materials.

Character X mails all of this to character Y on crazy mans account.

The account with Character X quits the game, I assume canceling their account.

Months pass

Character X's account is reinstated.

Character X petitions blizzard asking that their mats be returned.

This could very easily be a scheme between you and character Y to produce tons of extra gold. Its not like any amount of chat logs could determine this to be true or false. You could be the crazy one, who quit and now suddenly want all your stuff back. For all you know he could have spent all that gold buying 1000 mounts and have no way of giving it back. or worse buying inflated AH grays and now the gold is distributed across the server.

Blizzard cant in good conscience give you your stuff back because it could potentially ruin the economy which affects lots more players than you and yours.

I’m not saying your lying, or that your story isn’t tragic, but Blizzard simply cannot take your word for it and give you your stuff back.

This is the reason that I cannot see anything more than a token guild back system implemented. Like a super mail slot, but really if you mail all your crap to some random guy and he doesn’t give it back, that’s not blizzards fault, and not theft. Because there are people who would take advantage of a full re-imbursement system then it cannot be implemented.

Hacking is different as in theory no gold leaks into the economy. Person X logs onto your account, shards/sells all your gear and mails it to person x.

Blizzard finds out, banns person X (thus removing the extra gold) and then gives you your stuff back. In fact I hear they are not even doing that any more, but simply giving you a green kit of gear for your class, which I can see being the case since gold laundering though the AH could happen much faster than they could respond to.

I hate to be the bleak one, and I really do wish things were different but the reality of the situation is that there is little that blizzard could do to make things right by you without opening the potential to do very very wrong by lots of others.

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Is it possible that he DID mail you the 100,000 gold, and blizzard flagged it and stopped the transfer?

If you know the approximate time the money was sent, and from what character, you a GM can look into the details

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There is definitely room to argue to what extent you need a guild bank. I do not think you can argue the fact that you do need one though. That someone in the guild, or multiple someones, has/have to be trusted with some amount of assets and that those assets have a worth.

In our case, clearly we fucked up. We banked too much, did not distribute it back to members fast enough and, most of all, trusted the wrong guy.

I still do not see how Blizzard can have a system that requires a guild bank and then on the other hand claim no responsibility for the repercussions of such a system. And maybe they came to a similar realization, as many people have commented, there is less of a need for centralized banking in WoW 2.0. At least so far.

Still, these items have real world value and I think it could easily be argued that a crime was committed. I dont mean to be overly dramatic and of course its not the same as if 50 peole had their wallets stolen, but we lost things that have real world value and we know who took them. Blizzard ought to do something about it. Its a black and white issue, there is no grey area here.

This is absolutely not a black and white issue and I don't see a reason for Blizzard to step in.

The question is really, who did they belong to? There's really no way for Blizzard to police it. Just because the guy leaves the guild with a bunch of potions, mats, or money on his character means Blizzard needs to stop him and say "hey little fella, do you have a receipt for that?" Like it or not, WoW is not a real-world economy. If you pile all the best loot on your MT, like many guilds did for MC, and the tank leaves the guild, does Blizzard step in there too? Is progression gear "guild assets"? What about that enchanter you gave all the best recipe drops to because they were an officer or had the best attendance? When he server transfers do you say, hey Blizz, return our recipe investment?

Fact is you have to manage your assets better and move on. It's a rotten thing to go through, and you may have a vendetta against the guy, but it sounds like he's already in enough trouble in real life.

Also, to be honest, this is probably the best time to get your guild bank ripped off if it's gonna happen. I can't really think of anything besides potions and herbs that the guild needs heavily in TBC at this time - no cores, frozen runes, yadda yadda. My guild's bank doesn't even have herbs or potions in it because almost every member is alch and/or herb, or uses an alt for it. So really it just comes down to some discretionary gold.

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I think another type of RAID theory can be applied here... The key is redundancy. make each officer have a bank character and delegate the guild's wealth to those. If you have a trusted core group of officers it would be fantastically bad luck to have 50%+ of them suddenly turn on you and take the wealth they were safeguarding.

Losing an officer would hurt, sure, but at least then the guild bank would survive.

If you put all your eggs in one basket...

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I think that a lot of this can be applied to 'independently wealthy' players also. I know 2-3 people who really enjoy or excel at the money-making aspect of WoW. One of them has been hacked (he got his account restored, but it was incomplete) and another got 2 of his main accounts banned (long story, it was an unjust ban but he didn't get his accounts back). The latter had a few other people holding onto various high-value items and some gold. When he opened a new account, he had a nice cache waiting for him.

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Ofc a raid-/guildbank is fine for collecting mats for crafted stuff and boe's left from your raids because noone needed them.

But, we also got one and collected every damn shit in the game, high stacks of everything you can think of. Well, did that really helps us? Don't think so.

It was nice to equip our alts with boe t1 and some blues/purples from ragna/ony/nef, but that's it. The smaller your raid is and the more active your raidmembers are the less you may need to aquire gold for eg consumeables. Got a raidpool of 35 people for 2-3 kara runs and 1 big raid? That's just fine, share the money so that they can buy whatever they want, but under the condition, that they bring the needed stuff for the raid by themselves. If they can't afford it, ask why.

a) There are a lot of people can't work with money in real life or gold in wow and manage to save it for real needed things (lucky for us, there are no gambling or other addicted making things ingame then raiding :)). For those, it's quite nice to see, ah ok next day there is a raid and we need 10 spp for loatheb, just send a mail and get them in time. Getting 90k money at your bank saved for what? If you need the consumeables, farm/buy them by yourself if you want to beat the encounter.

b) The larger your raidpool is, the even more it's a problem to share it on a fair way. Boy with 100% attendance getting 1000g, someone with less getting proportionally parts? Quite hard to handle, and just think of vanilla where a lot of your raiders didn't need to farm for that much encounters - only for some dps races maybe. Our maintank was prepared, brought some dirge's, rum, ssp for every damn boss - but only ~ 50% of our healers spend time fishing nightfin, cook tender wolf's and brought enough greater mana potions to heal as long as a fight may persist. The DPS lacked even healthpots because dps wasn't an issue any time, joining with pvp specc didn't annoy anyone.. so :/

c) Your guildbank may be managed by one till xyz people - one till xyz source's of errors, corruption, suppression and so on. The op got a really bad case of human mind disturbing, but who save's you others from getting those problems any time in near future? What prevents your bankmanager account of getting hacked while checking ingame mail from an inet cafe by a trojan as our's did obviously several month ago?

There are some real risky parts on using a guildbank, but ofc it's has some comfortable advantages (since without, noone would like to use it, meh). We decided to save stuff like sand for chroma, elementium ore for tf, scrap's from naxx since there is only a use for it under particular circumstances - every other thing may be rolled out during a raid. We demand our members to bring the necessary articles to the raid and who's not in the raid won't benefit from the bank during share by proportional attendance. So if you are lucky, having 50% attandance an win 80% of your roles you may win more "green daggers of the guru" then a 80% attendance with 20% win ratio - but who does really care? Addicted raiders will put in the time necessary to collect their consumeables, sharing some with friends or buying it from the ah while spending time playing arena battles. Not that much addicted raiders wouldn't get a higher output of the minimum of effort they maybe put in while raiding with us.

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