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FaceShooter and hunter shot priorities in Cataclysm

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Regarding CS delaying or not. AS may be better dpfc (at 80) than CS, but CS is better dps, so its only an increase in dps to delay CS if you loose more damage from doing a SS instead of an AS than you gain from CS over AS. This is very RAP dependant and cannot be tested on dummies since CS scales with 23% RAP and AS only scales with 4.2% RAP.

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Can I ask why you don't consider serpent sting in your first condition:

"if HM is not on target or running out in less than a set time and there´s no MfD on target and focus/cooldowns/target heath don´t allow for KS, ES or BA"

There is discussion of even delaying explosive shot for the sake of applying serpent sting, and so I thought it would be an argument in the above condition.

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Considering some trinkets do not proc instantly, wouldn't it be worthwhile to do something like HM SerS SS SS RF CS Readiness CS AS AS ... as an opening?

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Can I ask why you don't consider serpent sting in your first condition:

"if HM is not on target or running out in less than a set time and there´s no MfD on target and focus/cooldowns/target heath don´t allow for KS, ES or BA"

There is discussion of even delaying explosive shot for the sake of applying serpent sting, and so I thought it would be an argument in the above condition.

My reasoning for including those shots on my initial version was that they´re on CD so I assumed they´re meant to be stronger. I reckon there is some theorycrafting in order though as we don´t really have a lot of information about shots dps, dpf and dpct to base our priorities on so far. After all that is the main reason for this thread - finding and improving the shot rotations/priorities for the different specs. I´m more than willing to revise the prioritylist if there´re sound improvements to it.

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It´s not but it´s off GCD and as such not part of the rotation. Just wait until you´ve got 5 frenzy stacks and use it.

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And actually, the damage difference between Black Arrow at 35 focus and Glyphed Trap Launcher - Explosive Trap at 10 focus is hardly different at 9000 AP and 18% Mastery at level 85. Black Arrow was doing 6005 to up to 12010 damage (if all 5 ticks crit) in comparison to Explosive Trap doing 7360 to up to 11040 (if all 10 ticks crit) not including the initial damage component which is currently bugged on the beta (although the tooltip displays ~1000 damage, it actually is only doing ~280 damage, the same as when I was naked, even though the tooltip when naked said it should do ~370 damage)..

Currently, at 9028 RAP and 16.41 mastery, I'm showing 7263 damage for Black Arrow on the tooltip. Explosive Shot's dot component shows 7900. Switching to 9844 AP (+816), the two have improved to 7502 (+239) and 8580 (+680) respectively.

5/5 Crits for Black Arrow will push it to 15004, 10/10 Crits for Explosive trap will push it to 12870, The initial damage of Explosive Trap should be 1248, which pushes Explosive's total to 14118. Unless Black Arrow's RAP modifier gets buffed, or it regains the old +damage buff, I don't see how BA can compete. Black Arrow is outpaced on scaling, has fewer chances to proc LnL, and costs 25 more focus than a glyphed Trap Launcher.

Also, Immolation trap needs help. Explosive Trap is better than it for single target as Marksman, that shouldn't happen.

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I'm using your addon and loving it; very helpful while trying to become accustomed to the new mechanic. I don't have a scientific approach to offer here, but I wanted to bring up a couple things I've noted during my training dummy time (specced MM).

First, it seems the addon is suggesting a lot more single SS than I expected. I would have thought SS would almost always be used in paris.

Second, my sense of my focus reservoir is that it is too high on average (perhaps because of too many SS?). Again, not being scientific, but I would have thought that I'd be getting the most bang for my buck if my focus is generally less than 50%, and perhaps even hovering around 22-24 unless I'm nearing a CS.

I'm also seeing SS be my highest damage producing shot, greater than AS, Auto, and WQ.

At the same time, if I try to substitute AS for suggested SS, my focus remains fine but my DPS seems to drop.

I'm wearing my usual raid gear, cat as a pet, not using RF or anything other than whatever procs on its own.

Not complaining here in any way, just throwing out anecdotes for informational use.

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I'm using your addon and loving it; very helpful while trying to become accustomed to the new mechanic. I don't have a scientific approach to offer here, but I wanted to bring up a couple things I've noted during my training dummy time (specced MM).

First, it seems the addon is suggesting a lot more single SS than I expected. I would have thought SS would almost always be used in paris.

Second, my sense of my focus reservoir is that it is too high on average (perhaps because of too many SS?). Again, not being scientific, but I would have thought that I'd be getting the most bang for my buck if my focus is generally less than 50%, and perhaps even hovering around 22-24 unless I'm nearing a CS.

I'm also seeing SS be my highest damage producing shot, greater than AS, Auto, and WQ.

At the same time, if I try to substitute AS for suggested SS, my focus remains fine but my DPS seems to drop.

I'm wearing my usual raid gear, cat as a pet, not using RF or anything other than whatever procs on its own.

Not complaining here in any way, just throwing out anecdotes for informational use.

I´m aware of the problems with MM and ISS uptime. I´m still struggleing for a general, codable solution to this problem. Unfortunatly the last few days I couldn´t put much work into improving this behavior because I was busy fixing more important and addon breaking bugs.

I think the reason you feel your focus reservoir is too high is that currently FS takes a minimum guaranteed focus regeneration approach when calculating how much focus you need to have so CS (or any other signature shot) is castable on CD. In other words it´d calculate how much focus you regenerate until CS is ready again, subtract that value from CS's focus costs and try to keep you at or above that level at all times. For this specific check it does account for haste improved regeneration, it doesn´t account for SS generated focus though. So in general it´ll keep you quite a bit higher than necessary. This shouldn´t actually be a problem though if there´s enough wiggle room in between your lower and upper threasholds. If this proves to be a problem I´ll have to find a way to predict how many SS/CoS you´ll do before your next signature shot and include the regenerated focus in the calculation.

This may not be necessary though. If I want to have a 100% ISS uptime* while still doing CS on CD and Blizzard doesn´t change the buff duration I know that I´ll always have to do at least two pairs of SS between two CS. I think I can just hardcode this into FS. I could make FS monitor the remaining ISS buff duration and force two SS if either a) ISS runs out before CS comes off CD and it´d run out before I could start my second SS if I cast anything else now or b) it´d run out after CS comes off CD but it´d run out before I could cast my second SS after CS.

* Actually saying 100% uptime is not the whole truth. It is my understanding that it´s enough to start casting your second SS while ISS is up so you get the short casttime. If you loose ISS while casting the second one it may only have a very minor impact on your focus regeneration and/or next auto shot.

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I´m aware of the problems with MM and ISS uptime. I´m still struggleing for a general, codable solution to this problem. Unfortunatly the last few days I couldn´t put much work into improving this behavior because I was busy fixing more important and addon breaking bugs.

You may want to check out what Rivkah's FemaleDwarf implemention is for his ISS behavior option "steady shot in pairs if ISS has <= 4 sec left".

This works out really well. With my characters stats, it currently maintains almost 100% ISS uptime, with only some small 1 shot drop offs during the KS phase due to CS priority over SS pairs. But that is with firing CS off CD and can be fixed by delaying the CS cast to after the SSs but before SrS falls off.

With that implementation, during 5 mins, 89 SSs are cast. These were cast in 37 pairs, 4 triplets, and 3 single casts. That is pretty darn good.

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The logic behind the steady shot in pairs feature is pretty straightforward. It just says if you have already cast the first steady shot in a pair, check if ISS has <= 4 sec left, if so, cast a second steady shot before casting any other shots.

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The logic behind the steady shot in pairs feature is pretty straightforward. It just says if you have already cast the first steady shot in a pair, check if ISS has <= 4 sec left, if so, cast a second steady shot before casting any other shots.

So how does it decide when to cast the first pair? Also I assume this might push CS back a bit in favor of keeping ISS up? From what I can tell so far it´s propably the better strategy to priorize ISS uptime over CS anyway.

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There's no special logic on deciding when to cast the first pair, I just follow the standard shot priority (which means the initial ISS may come up a bit late). The only thing this particular setting allows you to do is control whether the first steady shot turns into two, so that you don't waste a pair once you've already cast one. The theory is that generally if you need to cast one steady, unless you've just cast a pair it's more efficient to just do two then so your ISS is refreshed. The other thing with this approach is that at worst higher priority shots are never delayed more than one steady shot cast.

I have a second option on the site which allows you to prioritize steady shot above all other shots if your ISS has <= 3 sec left on it. That results in slightly higher ISS uptime but the difference isn't large, and it will force higher value shots like chimera to be delayed more often, especially at the start of the fight. Starting a fight with 2 steadies seems like a waste of focus though, so I'm not sure I like that approach. You probably could add a contingency for if focus was above a certain level though to get around this issue.

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Also I assume this might push CS back a bit in favor of keeping ISS up? From what I can tell so far it´s propably the better strategy to priorize ISS uptime over CS anyway.

It can push back the CS a little bit, but currently that is definitely not a problem considering the relative damage of CS to SS and the benefit of the ISS buff. But that is not a big deal since currently, I prefer to still delay my CS cast to somewhere within the last 4s before SrS drops depending on when is convienent.

Of the 39 CS casts in the simualtion for my character with the <= 4s setting:

- 1 was the initial cast

- 2 were cast after Readiness (which is debatable on whether that is currently the best use of focus)

- The other 36 broke down into delays of:

0.00-0.25: 2

0.25-0.50: 4

0.50-0.75: 0

0.75-1.00: 6

1.00-1.25: 7

1.25-1.50: 3

>1.50: 4

As can be seen most of the delays where under the time of a SS cast. Of the 4 that were greater than 1.5s delays in CS cast time, the SS pair started a little late due to focus issues where the sim was trying to prevent an overcap by firing an extra ArS. In 3 of those 4, the ISS buff actually ran out during the cast of the second SS in the pair. Although those results are not ideal, its not bad for a simple rule sim with sometimes competing rules.

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is there a way to tweak the shot display so that it waits for optimal stacks on proc buffs to suggest CS (or AS)?

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One suggestion for the shot display:

It would be a lot easier to use if the transition from shot to shot on the display were more easily readable. Example -- the addon wants to communicate that you should SS 4 times in a row. During these 4 shots, there really isn't any movement on the two icons. You see the SS icon for all of them.

Maybe something as simple as a number in the corner or even the middle of the button would help. I would suggest something like numbers 1-5. So the first 5 suggested shots get the corresponding number, the 6th suggested shot gets the number 1 and so on and so on. Why 5? Well...sometimes the shot priority changes before you actually cast the suggested shot, for instance. Also, because if the suggested shot is a huge string of Arcane shots (during rapid fire, for instance) then it will be easier to see that you are casting them without seeing something ridiculous like oscillating 1's and 2's.

Just a suggestion that I think would add to the usability of the addon.

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is there a way to tweak the shot display so that it waits for optimal stacks on proc buffs to suggest CS (or AS)?

I don´t understand your question? What proc stacks should I wait for before suggesting CS? :confused:

One suggestion for the shot display:

It would be a lot easier to use if the transition from shot to shot on the display were more easily readable. Example -- the addon wants to communicate that you should SS 4 times in a row. During these 4 shots, there really isn't any movement on the two icons. You see the SS icon for all of them.

Maybe something as simple as a number in the corner or even the middle of the button would help. I would suggest something like numbers 1-5. So the first 5 suggested shots get the corresponding number, the 6th suggested shot gets the number 1 and so on and so on. Why 5? Well...sometimes the shot priority changes before you actually cast the suggested shot, for instance. Also, because if the suggested shot is a huge string of Arcane shots (during rapid fire, for instance) then it will be easier to see that you are casting them without seeing something ridiculous like oscillating 1's and 2's.

Just a suggestion that I think would add to the usability of the addon.

I´m planning on allowing the option to have the frames animated again as soon as I´m happy with the suggestion in general. Those animations should illustrate the transitions much more clearly.

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I guess I was thinking of Beserker, but if you are using that for PvE, I guess there is more trouble in what you are doing than waiting for CS. Plus, I forgot that CS is no good anymore, it's hard to get over.

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I don't know if I'll explain it good but for example when FS suggests me 2 steady shots, if i press shteady shot once for each casts everything is good. But if i press it one more time before the steady shot casts ends, but after the gcd on FS has ended, it moves quickly to the next shot. So when I'm getting is 2xsteady and then arcane as suggestion: i start casting steady shot, gcd ends, i press steady before the first one casting has ended and the second steady shot suggestion dissapears, before i have actually started casting it and it shows me arcane shot which was the third shot. Any way to configure it so it doesn't behave like that?

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I don't know if I'll explain it good but for example when FS suggests me 2 steady shots, if i press shteady shot once for each casts everything is good. But if i press it one more time before the steady shot casts ends, but after the gcd on FS has ended, it moves quickly to the next shot. So when I'm getting is 2xsteady and then arcane as suggestion: i start casting steady shot, gcd ends, i press steady before the first one casting has ended and the second steady shot suggestion dissapears, before i have actually started casting it and it shows me arcane shot which was the third shot. Any way to configure it so it doesn't behave like that?

That´s the new spell "queue". The client allows you to queue a new spell before the current one has actually finished. If you cast a steady shot and queue the next one just before it´s finished casting FS moves on to the next suggestion and you should be fine with that.

However unfortunatly FS has no (precise) way of telling if the queuing worked or not until it gets a response by the server so it always assumes it did and just reverts back to the original state if it realizes that it didn´t work.

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I can add a BW reminder frame or something as a module later, but it doesn´t really belong into the rotation itself. But you´re right, I forgot accounting for the 50% focus discount when under the effect of TBW. I´ll fix that in the next version.

Both BW and Focus Fire seem to relevant for the BM rotation because they affect the various shots differently: the 50% focus cost reduction is one of the precious resources for BM, and any time not spent burning focus during BW should be a DPS loss. Thus, they should go into BW with 85+ focus (approximately assuming 20% haste) if using KC during BW and 70+ if just spamming AS/SrS. That changes the shot priority before BW comes off CD. Similarly, the +15% haste from Focus Fire benefits Auto Shot and Steady Shot (but not AS), so it is likely to be worth more outside of BW, and would prioritize SS over AS until focus is near maximum.

I have anecdotally verified this for myself, but actually analyzing numbers for the above is difficult, since it requires different shot priority depending on Frenzy stacks and BW timing. I'll post on the 4.0.1 thread when I have real numbers.

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Both BW and Focus Fire seem to relevant for the BM rotation because they affect the various shots differently: the 50% focus cost reduction is one of the precious resources for BM, and any time not spent burning focus during BW should be a DPS loss. Thus, they should go into BW with 85+ focus (approximately assuming 20% haste) if using KC during BW and 70+ if just spamming AS/SrS. That changes the shot priority before BW comes off CD. Similarly, the +15% haste from Focus Fire benefits Auto Shot and Steady Shot (but not AS), so it is likely to be worth more outside of BW, and would prioritize SS over AS until focus is near maximum.

I have anecdotally verified this for myself, but actually analyzing numbers for the above is difficult, since it requires different shot priority depending on Frenzy stacks and BW timing. I'll post on the 4.0.1 thread when I have real numbers.

Ok agreed, both TBW and Focus Fire do have an impact on our rotation. Also it matters when to cast TBW of course. I still wouldn´t call it strictly part of the rotation because it doesn´t really take up a timeslice of the rotation beeing off GCD and as such it shouldn´t be shown at the main recommendation frame.

What I could do besides adding said reminder frame is making FS trying to save focus in anticipation of TBW and recommend using it only when over a certain threshold - kind of like the Berserk frames with some of the feral druid recommendation AddOns work.

Concerning Focus Fire - as the algorithm already tries to keep just above whatever focus is needed to be able to cast KC as soon as it comes off CD again so there´s not much I can do in preparation for it. It´s the nature of that kind of implementation that this threshold will be lowest right after a KC is cast but I´m not convinced it´s a net dps gain to wait until that happens and potentially trading precious uptime for it. However I could change the behavior to a upper threshold during Focus Fire duration to maximize the amount of steady shots cast while having the buff without overcapping.

I´ll put it on my ToDo list. :)

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The change to Black Arrow seems to have been VERY significant. The epic-geared pre-made Hunter with 11764 AP, and 17.16 Mastery does 20990 with Black Arrow but only 1187 + 10230 with Explosive Trap. Considering the initial damage on Explosive Trap is still only doing about 200 damage, I think it'll be hard to compensate.

I'm not sure that the increased proc chance can compensate for the nearly double damage that Black Arrow does now. Furthermore, the 4/5 tier gear bonus makes Black Arrow give a tick on application increasing it's damage by essentially 20%.

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Just gotta give you a big thanks for this addon. It have helped alot to understand that the damage output from hunters are comparible to other classes. Have been having some problems with keeping up enough focus etc for my shots and this have helped me on how to press the buttons in order to be efficient.

One thing tho, is it possible to turn off the notify about Hunters mark? Cause on some shorter fights I don't wanna spend that extra second to cast HM instead of some damage ability, and aswell when switching targets alot to.

Like only advice about hunters mark when out of combat or something.

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I just released version 0.1.5. I´m still not completely happy with it but between LnL handling, RiF, CoS and SS adding focus only after the spell has been cast successfully, spell interrupt detection etc and the inevitable server/client lag. FS has become pretty complex and challanging to bugfix once again. Until I´m completely satisfied with overall stability I´ll refrain from adding new features even though I´m itching to include them myself.

The change to Black Arrow seems to have been VERY significant. The epic-geared pre-made Hunter with 11764 AP, and 17.16 Mastery does 20990 with Black Arrow but only 1187 + 10230 with Explosive Trap. Considering the initial damage on Explosive Trap is still only doing about 200 damage, I think it'll be hard to compensate.

I'm not sure that the increased proc chance can compensate for the nearly double damage that Black Arrow does now. Furthermore, the 4/5 tier gear bonus makes Black Arrow give a tick on application increasing it's damage by essentially 20%.

Ya I realized that too. I even got values around 30k dmg per BA application on cata raid dummies which makes it roughly on par with Explosive Trap considering (glyphed) dpf and 3 times the dps on a single target. ET becomes as good dps with much better dpf at 3+ targets assuming you´re the only hunter using the trap and those targets stay within the area of effect. Unfortunatly this change hasn´t reached the live servers yet where my BA does a bit more than half the damage of ET (on a single target!) for 3.5 times the focus cost (glyphed) with half as much ticks to proc LnL.

I included an option to opt for TL + Trap over BA in 0.1.5. Also seeing as BA is much more powerful and SpS only has to be applied once at lvl 85 I included another option to not save focus for your signature shot over usage of SpS and BA so it´s basically used as soon as the CD is up/focus allows even if it pushes back your signature shot due to focus shortage.

Just gotta give you a big thanks for this addon. It have helped alot to understand that the damage output from hunters are comparible to other classes. Have been having some problems with keeping up enough focus etc for my shots and this have helped me on how to press the buttons in order to be efficient.

One thing tho, is it possible to turn off the notify about Hunters mark? Cause on some shorter fights I don't wanna spend that extra second to cast HM instead of some damage ability, and aswell when switching targets alot to.

Like only advice about hunters mark when out of combat or something.

I also included 6 options for HM handling.

- always recommend it

- never recommend it

- only if target has bosslevel

- only if you´re ooc

- only if either target has bosslevel or you´re ooc and

- only if both target has bosslevel and you´re ooc

I hope there´s the fitting option for everyone. I also plan on including some time to life calculations again as one of the future features and use that for smarter HM/SpS/BA recommendations (meaning: don´t use them when your target is about to die)

In addition to the above mentioned changes I also implemented Rivkahs "use SS if ISS runs out in <= 4s" condition for MM which seems to work pretty fine in keeping ISS up at cost of some CS usage. Please let me know what you think about it.

edit: Another change I´d like some feedback about is I removed KC recommendation for SV while LnL is up and SS will lead to overcapping completely because at least according to Rivkahs calculator it was a dps loss with my live toon to do so.

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