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KergeKacsa

The MM hunter in 4.0.1

550 posts in this topic

Previously, I have done some analysis on Termination and the CS glyph and have provided recommendations for level 80 play with saying that I will reinvestigate at 85.

One situation that I had not previously considered until seeing Frostheim's recommendations on WHU is:

- CS glyph

- 2/2 Termination

- not maintaining 100% ISS uptime

If you are willing to sacrifice 1s (plus the fraction of a second for the additional SS cast time when ISS wears off) of ISS uptime every roughly 9s CS glyph rotation, during the Termination phase, you can do a 2 SS "rotation" like the following with a 1.5s base SS cast time:

CS-AS-SS-SS-KS-AS-AS-AS

As compared to the "rotation" for KS glyph instead of CS glyph, no Termination, and 100% ISS uptime as discussed previously, this rotation does about 627 more DPS with my current numbers at 80 since it trades off 5 KS, 1.25 AI, and 10 SSs to gain 2.5 CS and 18.75 AS. The problem with this is that it is not a sustainable rotation. It has a net -54 focus per cycle even with 2/2 Termination, and with only 2 SSs per cycle, it takes 4 cycles on average to get a MMM Proc, resulting in an average net focus -48.5 per cycle. Thus, if starting at 100 focus, this "rotation" can only be sustained for 2 cycles or 18s, which is a lot shorter than most KS phases.

To counteract the focus loss, you can weave in the standard CS glyph KS rotation below enough to regen focus to do the 2 SS rotation above:

CS-SS-SS-KS-AS-SS-SS

This rotation has a net focus average of +53 per cycle. Hence, it slightly more than makes up for the focus deficit of the 2 SS version (enough to more than account for the slight focus regen loss when ISS is temporarily dropped). Thus, a 1:1 ratio of these two rotations would be sustainable. However, if the target is about to die, you no longer need to do the regen rotation. Now this regen rotation currently does -788 DPS for me, meaning that the combined rotations at a 1:1 ratio does about -130 DPS currently compared to the non-CS/Termination rotation during the KS phase since it ends up trading off 5 KSs to gain 2.5 CS and 2.5 AS. Note that this 1:1 ratio still has roughly about 94% ISS uptime during the KS phase.

During the non-KS/Termination phase, I had shown that the non-CS glyph "rotation" was about 88 DPS better. Hence, it is currently roughly 96 DPS better overall. That 96 DPS is not much and will probably swing in favor of the CS glyph/Termination at 85.

At a 1.25s SS cast time, there are basically two choices for the 2 SS rotation during the KS phase.

1) This choice is identical to the 1.5s 2 SS rotation with the difference being a 0.5s gap between the end of the rotation and the next CS due to the shorter SS cast time. It has a net focus of -42.1 per cycle and does 114 more DPS than the non-CS glyph cycle since it trades off 6.36 KS, 1.59 AI, and 12.73 SS to gain 1.82 CS and 17.05 AS.

The 4 SS cycle has a net average focus of 40.6, so a 1:1 ratio would be sustainable for a long time. However, the 4 SS cycle is currently 507 DPS worse since it trades off 6.36 KS and 5.45 AS to gain 1.82 CS, 0.91 AI, and 7.27 SS.

So with the current numbers the 1:1 ratio works out to -197 DPS currently since you are trading off 6.36 KS, 0.34 AI, and 2.73 SS to gain 1.82 CS and 5.8 AS.

With this choice, the overall DPS difference with the non-CS glyph choice is currently -29 DPS.

2) The other fires an extra AS so that there is no gap. The problem with the second is that it pushes the CS cast back by 0.5s, cutting into half the benefit of the CS glyph. Currently, this works out to your benefit, but it may not work out to be beneficial at 85 with the updated shot numbers. It has a net average focus of -57.7 and is +536 DPS over the non-CS glyph rotation due to trading off 6.89 KS, 1.72 AI, and 13.78 SS to gain 1.29 CS and 24.55 AS.

With a 1:1 ratio with the 4 SS cycle, the net average focus is -8.55 per cycle, so that it is sustainable for over 11 cycles if starting at around 100 focus. The 1:1 ratio here works out to be +13 DPS better than the non-CS glyph case since you are trading off 6.63 KS, 0.41 AI, and 3.25 SS to gain 1.56 CS and 9.55 AS. This end up being about +13 DPS over the complete range of boss health.

At a 1.00s SS cast time, there are basically two choices for the 2 SS rotation during the KS phase.

1) A 3 SS rotation that has a net average focus of -7.7 and is sustainable for long enough to handle most if not all KS phases.

2) A slightly better choice due to slightly better ISS uptime is a 1:1 ratio between a 2 SS and 4SS cycle. It has a net average focus of -7.5 and is +52 DPS over the non-CS glyph rotation due to trading off 6.36 KS, 0.34 AI, and 2.73 SS to gain 1.82 CS and 7.61 AS. Overall, this works out to being about +49 DPS over the non-CS glyph case.

In summary, I just wanted to point out a situation that I had not previously analyzed concerning the CS glyph and Termination, where the two together may end up being the maximum DPS case for an MM hunter depending on how the relative shot damage and our stats are at 80. I will redo the analysis at level 85 with our lower haste and crits amounts.

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The CS glyph needs to be a rather clear winner in theory for it to be a practical choice. Most fights don't let the raiders perform their stuff with clean mathematical precision. And every time you extend CS 1 second, you waste the glyph's value. In short the glyph is highly inflexible as you can't be sure that you will be able to use it to it's fullest on every single cooldown (9 seconds is a quite short time to cover any focusloss suffered within that period). The KS glyph however is always going to be effective (provided the boss isn't some gimmick that ends the fight at 10%), because it is 'free'. Of course there is some opportunity cost there as well, but it is considerably more flexible.

AotF will of course help a lot, but I doubt it is going to erase all such factors.

Not to speak of the fact that a low focus spent requirement is inherently easier to handle than a high focus spent requirement. And the CS glyph certainly ups the required focus spent within a given period. In short, the more focus you can use on dumps, the easier it will be.

Thus I'm far from convinced that the CS glyph will be a worthy glyph, unless something changes markedly. The surrent situation in raids should contain more focus than will ever be available in Cataclysm. Only applicable for low mobility fights of course. So if it isn't really worth it now, then I can only see it becoming even less as raiding begins again. This naturally doesn't take into account any buffs or changes to CS that might happen in between.

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The CS glyph needs to be a rather clear winner in theory for it to be a practical choice. Most fights don't let the raiders perform their stuff with clean mathematical precision. And every time you extend CS 1 second, you waste the glyph's value. In short the glyph is highly inflexible as you can't be sure that you will be able to use it to it's fullest on every single cooldown (9 seconds is a quite short time to cover any focusloss suffered within that period). The KS glyph however is always going to be effective (provided the boss isn't some gimmick that ends the fight at 10%), because it is 'free'. Of course there is some opportunity cost there as well, but it is considerably more flexible.

Not to speak of the fact that a low focus spent requirement is inherently easier to handle than a high focus spent requirement. And the CS glyph certainly ups the required focus spent within a given period. In short, the more focus you can use on dumps, the easier it will be.

Thus I'm far from convinced that the CS glyph will be a worthy glyph, unless something changes markedly.

I agree with you in general. I have never been a fan of the CS glyph myself. Since we have always had other viable glyph options, I have avoided it as such since it is so easy for inefficiencies or even just unideal SS cast durations to cause your rotation to get off GCD boundaries and to either

1) push back the CS cast eating into part of the benefit of the glyph or

2) skip a shot so can cast CS off CD resulting in wasted DPS time

However, there are some skilled players that are able to consistently utilize the CS glyph for DPS gains. As such, I felt obligated to at least present the option in my previous post for folks to evaluate. Personally, unless CS is so much better than the other shots where its worth skipping shots to cast CS immediately off CD, I will still probably avoid it. Although it may in theory be a little higher DPS, as you state, it often is not in actual implementation.

One correction to your above statements though is that the CS glyph "rotations" are actually better on focus than the best DPS cases for the non-CS glyph rotations and result in more consistency in shots under ideal situations. This is because the 1s less CD results in one less AS cast per cycle and less average focus cost per cycle.

For instance, the 1.5s rotations are with maintaining ISS uptime:

CS glyph: CS-SS-SS-AS-SS-SS (with +7 average net focus)

Non-CS glyph requires max DPS and focus regen rotations of:

CS-AS-SS-SS-AS-AS-SS-SS (with -9.7 average net focus)

CS-AS-SS-SS-AS-SS-SS-SS (with 24 average net focus but less DPS and 0.5s push back of CS)

Another benefit of the CS glyph is better average self-heals per second, but that may not be worth the potential DPS loss from inefficiencies.

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There appears to be a hit bug ATM.

I'm finding that even w/ 8% hit I'm missing 3-5 times per every 200 shots fired on the Boss Dummy. Had another hunter test this as well with the same results.

It appears it's all shots and not just magic shots.

Out of a test of 791 shots I missed 34 times making a 4.29% chance to miss off that test. I'm going to continue shooting to get a larger sample size for more accurate results.

Two possiblities...

1) Hunter Hit cap is changed...

OR

2) Boss dummy is not lvl 80 appropriate and may be set as an 85 appropriate boss.

Anyone have confirmed misses during an actual raid?

EDIT:

Follow up...after going through a bunch of WOL and WMO and comparing my hit %s to 88% bosses it appears consistent.

Boss dummy is set for lvl 85 parses (IE dummy is set to lvl 88)

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As I see it the MM hunter's shot rotation is these days is not only priority based by also target based. For sure if we are raiding an ICC boss with a fight that last for 4-5 minutes, the priority is clear and we all know which shot to use before what. However if we are taking a trash target, then the best way will be just to down him with 2-3 AS.

I wonder what is the shot priority when we are talking about mid-range mini-boss that takes 20-40 sec to down by the raid group. Will that case will be based handled by the full priority of HM->RF->SrS->CS->AS->…. or will it be better in these mid-range cases to keep using the fast and dirty rotation of 2xSS->few AS->2xSS. Did someone did the theorycrafting where is the balance point when we should go with the full priority list?

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As I see it the MM hunter's shot rotation is these days is not only priority based by also target based. For sure if we are raiding an ICC boss with a fight that last for 4-5 minutes, the priority is clear and we all know which shot to use before what. However if we are taking a trash target, then the best way will be just to down him with 2-3 AS.

I wonder what is the shot priority when we are talking about mid-range mini-boss that takes 20-40 sec to down by the raid group. Will that case will be based handled by the full priority of HM->RF->SrS->CS->AS->…. or will it be better in these mid-range cases to keep using the fast and dirty rotation of 2xSS->few AS->2xSS. Did someone did the theorycrafting where is the balance point when we should go with the full priority list?

Hmm well I don't know how Chimera now compares to Arcane; but I believe it is now better DPF as well as better DPS (correct me if i'm wrong); so even on short living trash it wouldn't be bad to just use chimera shot.

On the mini bosses you will want to use serpent sting. It is one of the best DPCT attacks if it can run its duration. Whether i'd pull rapid fire out depends a bit whether it's like a pre-boss add or not. (Think Festergut / Rotface dogs / etc)

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i was wondering if anyone had given some thought to power levelling specs, i was looking at going 2/31/3 taking impKC along with RiF for pet aggro

and taking concussive barrage, which along with post haste, this combination would make you pretty much untouchable by most mobs, to me this is looking by far to be

one of the better levelling specs and along with rapid recoup you never lack focus.

KC would be used to build and keep pet aggro and shouldn't be too bad DPF with the RiF talent, the CS daze should give you enough time to SS

some more focus for kiting as well as many other little tricks that this spec would allow. focus shouldn't be a problem here since we'll have fox and RR

i understand this is not easy to quantify, maybe some tests for short burst would be useful to see if a high dps spec would be better than a

high cc/high pet threat spec but i'd rather keep it anecdotal and ask what you personally prefer and will be taking for levelling, what abilities you will be using

and the talents that may find useful.

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i was wondering if anyone had given some thought to power levelling specs, i was looking at going 2/31/3 taking impKC along with RiF for pet aggro

and taking concussive barrage, which along with post haste, this combination would make you pretty much untouchable by most mobs, to me this is looking by far to be

one of the better levelling specs and along with rapid recoup you never lack focus.

KC would be used to build and keep pet aggro and shouldn't be too bad DPF with the RiF talent, the CS daze should give you enough time to SS

some more focus for kiting as well as many other little tricks that this spec would allow. focus shouldn't be a problem here since we'll have fox and RR

i understand this is not easy to quantify, maybe some tests for short burst would be useful to see if a high dps spec would be better than a

high cc/high pet threat spec but i'd rather keep it anecdotal and ask what you personally prefer and will be taking for levelling, what abilities you will be using

and the talents that may find useful.

In my humble opinion, a power leveling spec will most likely not be a "Maximum Dps spec. A Leveling Hunter is still definitely a dps class regardless of his spec. so what give the most advantage is utilizing the Hunter's specific advantage over other classes. Hunter especially a BM Hunter is a 3man team by himsef, A Tank (Tenacity pet), A healer (mend pet) and the DPS (Hunter) (Demon warlocks have this to some degree as well)... So in my opinion the levelin spec should be a Heavy BM spec utilising the pet survival and pet dps talents instead of Hunter Dps / Focus Efficiencies which would be something like : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and of course getting "Sic'em " talent at level 81.

This would let the hunter solo all but the hardest of group quests also allowing him to go for higher level zones faster.

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Frostheim made a great post over at WoW Insider on the subject of leveling from 80-85

Scattered Shots: Leveling your hunter from 80 to 85

This is similar to what I had planned on doing but his arguments are well thought out and articulated. The essentials are that pet dps is an issue of the past due to the new Misdirection Glyph and pet survivability being relatively the same across all 3 specs.

I can't recall where this was posted earlier but there was an argument for BM being poor for soloing harder hitting mobs due to the fact that Tier 5 bonus healing is based on the hunter's damage which is significantly lower in BM.

Within the first few levels mobs will be dieing before or shortly after your pet arrives at the target. When you get closer to 85 and the mobs take longer to die AND are hitting your pet harder you'll want the extra healing from tier 5.

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ahh, i didnt see the scattered shots guide, looks a lot like the spec i made just focusing more on survivability, while i went for the CC. spirit bond could be an interesting choice, since you should have little to no downtime along with MM's focus regen.

some of the notes for travelling around are pretty useful too, didnt realise that pathfinding will give you 30% of 310%, ending up as 451% i think it says at the end of the thread. i might end up taking that over SB, thanks for the link

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some of the notes for travelling around are pretty useful too, didnt realise that pathfinding will give you 30% of 310%, ending up as 451% i think it says at the end of the thread. i might end up taking that over SB, thanks for the link

Good god no. The tooltip is pretty specific, 30% to Pack and Cheetah and 10% to mountspeed. While questing and soloing, you aren't often in Cheetah (you will use it at times I admit), and quite often your mounted time is not terribly long either. I would suggest staying the heck away from it. It had a point back when we didn't get a mount at level 20, now it is situational on top of being of limited value as well as overly expensive.

The idea about mountspeed talents is great, looking at the other options for that it is quite clear it is a popular thing. However, in the case of Hunters it's 'extra' value is poor.

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ahh, i didnt see the scattered shots guide, looks a lot like the spec i made just focusing more on survivability, while i went for the CC. spirit bond could be an interesting choice, since you should have little to no downtime along with MM's focus regen.

some of the notes for travelling around are pretty useful too, didnt realise that pathfinding will give you 30% of 310%, ending up as 451% i think it says at the end of the thread. i might end up taking that over SB, thanks for the link

As 26th said pathfinding boosts your mount speed by 10%. Also mount speed multiplications are calculated over your total speed. A 310% mount doesn't give you 310% speed, it gives you a 310% speed increase. Standing still is 0%, running is 100%. So 310% on top of that is 410% speed.

It's logical otherwise 60% mounts would slow you down.

So pathfinding would give you 410*1.1 = 451% speed.

As for the leveling spec. I think MM is an uncontested winner early on, purely because of Rapid Recuperation. Getting 50 focus return on each kill makes your speed so efficient in the earlier levels.

Personally I always take Concussive Barrage for the slow, although with the new misdirect glyph that's probably not even needed.

I've seen Frostheims build, and I largely agree with his reasoning. Although I find One with Nature so underwhelming that I was actually considering picking up Imp. KC and Resistance is Futile as well.

Run towards a mob, chimera shot him, he walks towards you which procs RiF. By the time your pet gets there you use KC and the mob is practically dead. If not another arcane shot. Basically 0 focus used with Rapid Recuperation.

I would probably also go for pathfinding over spirit bond as well. The extra healing is nice, but the 2% health per 10 im not too sure about. I think Mend Pet and Chimera healing are enough for the early levels. Pathfinding isn't brilliant either, but seeing as ill probably fly between the quests that might add up in the end. I feel like it's cho0sing between suboptimals either way.

The question is whether (as frostheim was saying) mobs at level 83+ indeed do get too hard to just burst down. If so i might swap to an alternate spec (or simply go with a tenacity pet) then.

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Some of you seem to have forgotten that this is a max-level, end-game raiding forum. How about you head over to WoW Insider if you want to discuss leveling.

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Hmm well I don't know how Chimera now compares to Arcane; but I believe it is now better DPF as well as better DPS (correct me if i'm wrong); so even on short living trash it wouldn't be bad to just use chimera shot.

Is the statement that CS is a good way to handle trash is verified with figures? As CS cost double the focus of AS, the math needs to show that it indeed do the double damage. I will remove the impact of the refresh of the SrS from the CS as in mini-boss or trash fight, the waste of the SrS CD does not worth the time.

Currently AS (with Glyph of AS) with my gear (ICC10 HC gear) crit the same as CS (without Glyph of CS) with 64.86%, AS shot makes an average damage of 6851.5 damage per shot (crit+non-crit), while CS does 14729.59 damage per shot (crit+non-crit).

All that makes AS 311.4 DpF and CS 334.7 DpF, so even on trash, it is better to start with CS->AS. Is that makes sense and match the numbers the theorycrafters got?

All that makes AS 311.4 DpF and CS 334.7 DpF, so even on trash, it is better to start with CS->AS. Is that makes sense and match the numbers the theorycrafters got?

Sleeping on the figures over night made me found out I did a small mistake on the numbers. The crit change of AS and CS cannot be the same as we all have Carful Aim 2/2. That means that for the first shot of a target AS will always crit but CS will only crit in 64.86% on the times. That means that over trash and on the first shot AS will do full crit 9911 damage while CS will do on an average 14729.59 (crit + non-crit).

That means that if we normalized the first shot on a trash by focus, AS does 450DpF while CS does only 334.7 DpF, so I think that for trash and mini bosses, it is still better to shot 5xAS, what do you say?

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Sleeping on the figures over night made me found out I did a small mistake on the numbers. The crit change of AS and CS cannot be the same as we all have Carful Aim 2/2. That means that for the first shot of a target AS will always crit but CS will only crit in 64.86% on the times. That means that over trash and on the first shot AS will do full crit 9911 damage while CS will do on an average 14729.59 (crit + non-crit).

That means that if we normalized the first shot on a trash by focus, AS does 450DpF while CS does only 334.7 DpF, so I think that for trash and mini bosses, it is still better to shot 5xAS, what do you say?

Small correction: Careful Aim does not add any %crit to Arcane Shot, so once again CS and AS share your previously posted numbers.

Careful Aim	Rank 2

Increases the critical strike chance of your Steady Shot, Cobra Shot and Aimed Shot by 60% on targets who are above 80% health.

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The discussions about Chimera versus Arcane early on showed that Chimera was the better choice. This was mainly due to the fact that you lose 1 second of Steady Shot cast time if you cast 2 Arcane Shots instead of 1 Chimera. At 1.5 second Steady cast time, you lose 2/3rds the damage of a full Steady as well 2/3rds the focus it would have generated. This was the case even if Chimera was not refreshing Serpent Sting (if it was refreshing it, it was very clearly the best choice). It was still quite close, though, and if you weren't able to fill the down time with Steady Shots (if you were moving, for example), then Arcane was better.

Now, however, Chimera does approximately double the damage for double the cost, making it the same damage per focus but taking half as long to use. It's a very clear winner now.

Also, Arcane Shot crits proc Sic Em and Chimera crits get 30% added damage from Piercing Shots. I'd wager Piercing Shots is the stronger talent, putting Chimera even more ahead of Arcane.

EDIT: Had 10% for piercing shots. It's 10% per point.

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The setting that was being discussed was singular trash or minibosses that weren't expected to live long enough for SerpSting to be worth it, and for Steady/Cobra Shot to be impractical (of course if Hunters are required to spend all focus before the adds then they should use it when possible). A good example would be the oozes and goos at Purticide. On such fights it isn't always likely that Chimera will be up right away, leading to a 'near-the-end' scenario for the shot. Obviously that lowers the value of Piercing Shots (30% damage to crits btw).

While not bosses, it has been stated by blues several times that Blizzard like addfights that doesn't have to involve AoE. Thus it can be a highly important thing to figure out which approach is the best.

Seeing the numbers so far posted, it looks like you are pretty much going to have an even value for either approach.

Another aspect to cover is if the add will die rather fast, then burning a load of focus now might be best as it means the Hunter has spent more of his/her full potential, instead of sitting afterwards with 35 focus left over. Similarly a late Chimera might just end getting wasted due to the fast death of the add, leading to a much higher focuswastage.

So, for fast killed adds, if you can fire Chimera right away, it looks to be the most practical shot, however if it is on cooldown, using AS only might lead to slightly less DPS on the add but considerably less wasted focus. Basically, be very observant.

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I put in the new 4.03a numbers for the MM shots into the spreadsheet that I had used to evaluate MM "rotations", the CS glyph, and Termination. Below are the results.

The same caveats as in my previous posts on these topics still apply here with the same “rotations†unless listed otherwise. Once again, the term rotation is a lose definition with the rotation provided the ideal guideline. This analysis was done at level 80, so it does not correlate 100% with the situation at 85. I will redo the analysis once I have level 85 data.

The numbers for each of my shots I got from Female Dwarf with including the PS damage and are (without CA talented):

KS: 9322

CS: 17596

AI: 9944 (13715 during CA phase)

AS: 6736

SS: 4333 (5976 during CA phase)

With the high CS damage now relative to KS, one change that I did make for all cases (even the non-CS glyph case) was to move CS as higher priority over KS.

KS glyph Versus CS glyph Comparison and no Termination

Careful Aim Rotation Range (between 100% and 80% boss health):

This range has the same numbers as for the Standard Rotation Range. I evaluated rotations at each of the rates that just did CS off CD, AI procs, and the rest all SSs to use only CS and the shots that benefit from CA. However, at the slower SS cast rates, it was a DPS loss as shown below:

@1.5s SS cast time: -525 DPS for special CA rotation

@1.25s SS cast time: -648 DPS for special CA rotation (worse since dead time in cycle)

@1.0s SS cast time: +121 DPS for special CA rotation

The reasons that the slower SS cast time CA rotations are worse is because AS still out damages SS (6736 to 5976) and since the SS cast time is longer than the AS GCD, resulting in less shots per CS cycle. At the 1s SS cast time, both the CA special rotation and standard rotations have the same number of shots, and the CA rotatiomn does a little better DPS since the extra AIs and damage per AI makes up for the damage difference between using an SS instead of an AS. Thus, using the special CA rotation is only beneficial with current numbers at 80 if you have SS near a 1s cast time (i.e., use Rapid Fire over the first 20%). Otherwise, it is better to still use your standard rotation.

However, due to the higher AI and SS damage, this range does favor the CS glyph with the following results using the shot differences listed for the Standard Rotation Range.

@1.5s SS cast time: CS glyph winning by about 108 DPS.

@1.25s SS cast time: CS glyph winning by about 162 DPS.

@1.0s SS cast time: CS glyph winning by about 164 DPS.

Standard Rotation Range (between 80% and 20% boss health):

@1.5s SS cast time: 4.175 AS versus 1.15 CS, 0.575 AI, and 1.65 SS

The CS glyph version wins by about 54 DPS.

@1.25s SS cast time: about 2.2 AS versus 1.09 CS, 0.55 AI, and 0.46 SS

The CS glyph case is better by about 131 DPS.

@1.0s SS cast time: 1 AS and 0.5 SS versus 1 CS and 0.5 AI

The CS glyph case is about 152 DPS better.

Kill Shot Rotation Range (20% boss health and below):

@1.5s SS cast time: 5 KS and 13.75 AS versus 2.5 CS, 1.25 AI, and 10 SS

Note that for the KS glyph case that I evaluated several possible “rotationsâ€. These included a 11s cycle built around the KS CD, a 12s cycle built around the KS CD but with an extra AS to use the extra focus, and a 10s cycle built around the CS CD with KS location floating and doing an extra SS and AS on the cycle where no KS can be cast and not maintaining ISS on the other cycles (only casting 3 SSs on those). Of these options, the 12s cycle is the best for longer duration KS phases and the 10s cycle is better in the shorter KS phases where you do not get to the non-KS cast cycle. I chose the 12s version for the analysis. The KS glyph case worked 439 DPS better.

@1.25s SS cast time: about 6.36 KS and 5.45 AS versus 1.82 CS, 0.91 AI, and 7.27 SS

The KS glyph case is 261 DPS better. Note that for the KS glyph case that a 11s KS rotation is 53 DPS better than a 10s CS rotation with floating KS.

@1.0s SS cast time: 1 AS and 0.5 SS versus 1 CS and 0.5 AI

The KS glyph case is 125 DPS better. Note that for the KS glyph case that a 11s KS rotation is still better.

Complete Range (assuming proportional times)

@1.5s SS cast time: KS glyph is about 34 DPS better (worse over first two phases but making up the difference in KS phase)

@1.25s SS cast time: CS glyph is about 59 DPS better

@1s SS cast time: CS glyph is about 99 DPS better

KS glyph Versus CS glyph With Termination Comparison

Non-Kill Shot Range (25% to 20% boss health):

Didn’t evaluate since small duration and it does not change things much.

Kill Shot Rotation Range (20% boss health and below):

@1.5s SS cast time: 5 KS versus 2.5 CS and 2.5 AS

The CS glyph with Termination is about 158 DPS better over this range, making this choice about 86 DPS better overall. Adding in the loss to autoshot damage due to only 94% ISS uptime, the difference is a little smaller.

@1.25s SS cast time: about 6.36 KS, 0.34 AI, and 2.73 SS versus 1.82 CS, and 5.8 AS

The CS glyph with Termination is about 39 DPS worse over this range, making this choice about 103 DPS better overall.

@1.0s SS cast time: 6.36 KS, 0.34 AI, and 2.73 SS versus 1.82 CS and 7.61 AS

The CS glyph with Termination is about 98 DPS better over this range, making this choice about 144 DPS better overall.

Current Summary

1) A special Careful Aim range rotation is not needed, unless you are hasted near the 1s SS cast time during the CA phase. Still use your standard priority over the first 20% of boss health unless hasted.

2) If going with the CS glyph, probably best to also spec Termination.

3) Although can get a little better DPS with CS glyph in most situations, I still recommend not using it for the following reasons:

a) It is not much of a DPS improvement in any of the ideal SS cast time cases listed. Maximum is 144 DPS out of 12259 or 1.18%. The benefit of the glyph is lessened with less ideal SS cast times.

b) The benefit of the CS glyph assumes always casting it off CD. Not casting CS immediately off CD hurts the CS glyph numbers relative to the KS glyph numbers.

c) Speccing Termination with the CS glyph uses two talent points that could be spent elsewhere like in Bombardment for better AoE or RiF for focus free KCs that can make up for the DPS difference over a raid night.

d) The KS glyph is better at longer SS cast times with the CS glyph being better at shorter SS cast times. With less haste on gear at 85 than now and longer boss fights with less dynamic haste uptime, the situation favors the KS glyph more.

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I wonder if the numbers above are taking into consideration that change of shot priorities during the CA period? Based on WHU site, Frostheim believes that at the first 20% of the boss fight when you have the CA talent and considering the Piercing Shots effect, using the AS is a DPS loss and you should prefer SS over it.

due to the much lower SS damage post 4.03a. Another factor is that with about a 55% crit rate without CA, a decent amount of the second point in CA was wasted.

WHU article was published based on 4.0.3 facts and was not tested with 4.0.3a, do you think that this fact may change the logic?

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I wonder if the numbers above are taking into consideration that change of shot priorities during the CA period? Based on WHU site, Frostheim believes that at the first 20% of the boss fight when you have the CA talent and considering the Piercing Shots effect, using the AS is a DPS loss and you should prefer SS over it.

WHU article was published based on 4.0.3 facts and was not tested with 4.0.3a, do you think that this fact may change the logic?

Yes, the above evalauted using a special CA rotation. As stated above, with the current level 80 numbers for my character, the special CA rotation was only a benefit when I was hasted close to a 1s SS cast time. When not close to the 1s SS cast time, the special CA rotation had less shots per CS cycle resulting in less DPS.

The analysis previously did not include the PS effect. I am used to the spreadsheet where the PS damage is factored into the average shot damage and did not originally realize that the Female Dwarf numbers do not include the PS damage. I updated the average shot numbers in my analysis to include the PS effect using the crit rate for the range being analyzed (100% for AI and SS during CA phase and 55.32% for CS always and AI and SS outside of CA range). I updated the previous post with the data corrected with factoring in the PS effect.

This all needs to reevaluated with level 85 shot numbers, but I do not have that data yet. At 85, the results will tend to be at the lower haste range, which favors the KS glyph more. Also, our crit rates will be lower, meaning that the full CA crit benefit will apply to AI and SS; however, our crit rates will probably be below 100% during the CA phase and much lower than now during the rest of the fights, resulting in PS being a much lower part of our damage, which will favor AS more relatively.

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The CA Steady vs Arcane has been mentioned slightly on and off the last couple of pages, but in my opinion the more important aspect of inverse scaling of talents with stats is somewhat more important.

The obvious one is CA and Crit, however having 1 point should remain good for the entire expansion given it is a set value of extra crit.

The less obvious one is that of Piercing Shots (as well as Master Marksman) and Haste. More Haste leads to less Steadies overall. Yes, a bit of Haste will not change 'rotations' as such, but at some point there will be a bit extra Focus lying around, and then it become imperative to use it since Arcane Shot is better than Steady Shot. As it should be. So over time as Hunters gear up, there will be less Steadies and more Arcanes. Less Steadies leads to less Aimed Shots as well. But since Chimera is supposed to be used on cooldown as much as possible, there isn't really an increase in it's usage.

Thus slowly Piercing Shots will drop in value. As noted with Careful Aim, it doesn't have to be a problem that talents lose value over time. The problem is just, it is all or nothing with PS. The bleed isn't a cap-able effect, so putting less than three points in it is not really viable. So if 2/3 is worth it, then 0/3 should be worth it too (provided there is somewhere to put the points).

I looked through the other classes, and the only cases where I could see somewhat similar things was with Death Knights and Killing Machine (as they get more Crit this talent will be worth less presumably), Warlocks and Impending Doom (this is convoluted though and isn't really tied into stats) and of course Elental Shamans and Lava Burst.

But in none of these cases is there an alteration of what they use as a result of changed stats. The best analogy I can come up with would be if Pyroblast didn't cause Ignite when it would Crit.

It is rather funny that the better geared the Hunter gets, the less focusefficient he/she becomes (due to loss of Aimed Shots).

I'm not sure that the total devaluation of PS will be something noteworthy. But I think it is worth looking at this.

The obvious solution to this would be to include Arcane Shot in Piercing Shots. Why it isn't is a riddle to me personally, given that the similar talents (Deep Wounds and Ignite) both include all direct damage at least. Not that all classes need to work in the same manner, but in this case, diversity isn't an advantage. At least it looks like the eventual 'loss' from this will be relatively minor.

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I'm able to use the link for other classes to see the suggested talent calculators but the ones for this thread do not seem to be working properly. Is it possible that it be updated?

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The obvious one is CA and Crit, however having 1 point should remain good for the entire expansion given it is a set value of extra crit.

The less obvious one is that of Piercing Shots (as well as Master Marksman) and Haste. More Haste leads to less Steadies overall. Yes, a bit of Haste will not change 'rotations' as such, but at some point there will be a bit extra Focus lying around, and then it become imperative to use it since Arcane Shot is better than Steady Shot. As it should be. So over time as Hunters gear up, there will be less Steadies and more Arcanes. Less Steadies leads to less Aimed Shots as well. But since Chimera is supposed to be used on cooldown as much as possible, there isn't really an increase in it's usage.

Thus slowly Piercing Shots will drop in value. As noted with Careful Aim, it doesn't have to be a problem that talents lose value over time. The problem is just, it is all or nothing with PS. The bleed isn't a cap-able effect, so putting less than three points in it is not really viable. So if 2/3 is worth it, then 0/3 should be worth it too (provided there is somewhere to put the points).

I looked through the other classes, and the only cases where I could see somewhat similar things was with Death Knights and Killing Machine (as they get more Crit this talent will be worth less presumably), Warlocks and Impending Doom (this is convoluted though and isn't really tied into stats) and of course Elental Shamans and Lava Burst.

But in none of these cases is there an alteration of what they use as a result of changed stats. The best analogy I can come up with would be if Pyroblast didn't cause Ignite when it would Crit.

It is rather funny that the better geared the Hunter gets, the less focusefficient he/she becomes (due to loss of Aimed Shots).

I'm not sure that the total devaluation of PS will be something noteworthy. But I think it is worth looking at this.

The obvious solution to this would be to include Arcane Shot in Piercing Shots. Why it isn't is a riddle to me personally, given that the similar talents (Deep Wounds and Ignite) both include all direct damage at least. Not that all classes need to work in the same manner, but in this case, diversity isn't an advantage. At least it looks like the eventual 'loss' from this will be relatively minor.

First, concerning CA, not just one but both points should be good for the entire expansions since

1) Our crit rates will be lower throughout the whole expansion. It will be lower to start due to the lower end gear and will stay lower than what we had in Wrath since crit will inverse scale with each tier level of boss.

2) Even if the second point in CA is not fully used, there really is not anything else better to spend the points in DPS-wise.

Concerning PS, you overstate the situation and may actually have it in inverse. Sure as our gear scales, more haste generally means faster steady shots and more arcane shots, but you are still going to be doing at least the 4 SSs per CS cycle to maintain ISS in most cases. Your amount of SSs is not really going to change the number of SSs you do much. At most you will do one less SSs per cycle every now and then.

On the other had, as your gear scales, your crit rate increases. This results in a higher percentage of your CSs, AIs, and SSs critting, which increases the value of PS.

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Now that Female Dwarf is up and running with a level 85 version with which I can play, I have done some analysis at level 85 with roughly best-in-slot pre-heroic/raid gear (gear from quests, normal dungeons, justice points, rep rewards, and crafting with drops from non-heroics). The stats on target with this gear set up are with using all buffs/debuffs are:

Agility: 5840

Attack Power: 14495 (Effective on Target: 16554)

Hit: 8.02% (Chance to hit: 100%)

Crit: 31.31% on target

Mastery Bonus: 22.9% Wild Quiver Proc

Display Haste Bonus: 7.43% (Avg Autoshot Speed 2.32)

Static Focus Shot Cast Time: 1.66 sec

Focus Shot w/ ISS/Frenzy: 1.44 sec

To start, I analyzed whether a special Careful Aim (CA) rotation was worth it when the boss is above 80% health. This is a rotation that does not use Arcane Shot (AS) over that range.

From my level 80 analysis, I had stated that a special CA rotation was not worth since:

1) The higher crit average SS damage (with the additional AI damage and PS factored in) was barely better than the average AS damage

2) If having a slow SS cast time, you were losing shots per CS cycle which was by far a much greater DPS loss than the gain by using the higher crit shots

3) In order to make the special CS rotation worthwhile with the level 80 numbers, you had to be under dynamic haste effect in that range so that your SS cast times where near the 1s GCD so that you were not losing shots per CS cycle. However, this required the use of RF (and Bloodlust) over the CA range, which would result in a lot of wasted focus. With 1 CS and 9 SSs, that is a net of 37 focus wasted per CS cycle just from the shots. Adding in the focus regen from haste (~80) and RR (40), that is 157 focus wasted per 10s CS rotation. Correcting this for the AI per cycle that would done, that is 148 focus per CS cycle wasted or 14.8 focus per second. That is a lot of waster focus.

I then predicted without seeing any of the level 85 numbers, that the situation would still be true.

Well, I was wrong.

SS/AI damage during the CA phase is now so much better than AS from the numbers generated of Female Dwarf that it is very clear. During the CA cycle, here is the average damage I compute for each shot using the numbers from Female Dwarf and with including PS benefits:

CS: 23724 (@ 31.32% crit rate)

KS: 12910 (@ 31.32% crit rate)

AI: 26332 (@ 91.32% CA crit rate) / 14950 (@ 31.32% crit rate)

AS: 9713 (@31.32% crit rate)

SS: 11710 (@ 91.32% CA crit rate) / 7067 (@ 31.32% crit rate)

As can be seen, the SS damage alone is well above the AS damage. Here is the DPS benefit I see for the CA rotation with my current numbers at each of the 3 SS cast times I have analyzed previously:

@1.5s: -317 DPS (lose 7.82 shots over 90s)

@1.25s: -66 DPS (lose 9 shots over 90s - extra lost shots due to gap to wait to fire CS off CD)

@1s: +1430 DPS (no shots lost)

Here are the differences that I get on Female Dwarf under various scenarios for DPS over the whole fight (not just the first 20%):

1) No RF or BL over the CA period (RF disabled and BL 50% into the fight)

Standard Rotation: 18144

CA Rotation: 18109 (-36 DPS)

Average SS cast time in CA range: 1.443

2) RF and BL both in the CA period but not overlapping and each covering 30s of the CA phase

Standard Rotation: 18846

CA Rotation: 19064 (+218 DPS)

Average SS cast time in CA range: 1.06

3) RF and BL both in the CA period but overlapping at start of fight

Standard Rotation: 18660

CA Rotation: 18783 (+123 DPS)

Average SS cast time in CA range: ~1.2

So as it can be seen with the current numbers for the shots I am getting in Female Dwarf for pre-heroic level 85 gear, both Female Dwarf and my hand analysis indicate that it is beneficial to use the special CA rotation (no AS) during the first 20% of the boss health as long as you are under dynamic haste effects, which we would normally be having dynamic haste effects in this range anyway so that we can hopefully maximize RF uptime. The preference is still not do overlap dynamic haste effects. If the raid is casting BL at the start, then delay casting RF until BL wears off unless its going to cost you to miss a RF latter, in which case go ahead and overlap RF.

One final observation here:

Kill Shot is not really much of a Kill Shot anymore. We have two shots, CS and AI, that do more damage, with CS doing considerably more damage.

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In the interest of Cataclysm launching tonight we are going to close the current threads. I have sent a PM to the OP to see if they wish to continue their much appreciated work in the Cataclysm thread. In the meantime if you are interested in authoring the Cataclysm thread (or assisting) please send me a PM.

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