Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Warlocomotif

4.0 Pre-Cataclysm Raiding

260 posts in this topic

Needed Improved Howl of Terror to move down the tree- if Soul Burn SoC were available at that level I would've taken it. Like I notced however, optional talents are optional, feel free to move those around.

[edit] @ Vo1os: I never considered that, and am also on a EU server- so I can't test it. Interesting question however.

Shame on me :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few destruction questions comes to mind:

Do we stick with incinerate during heroism while below 50%? Or even use soulfire?

Should we reforge to haste wherever possible if under a certain number?

Is it better to hardcast soulfire at the start of fight and save shards for searing pain even if only using sp below 50%?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok I have a question about the affliction build. For the last few points (I know it won't make much of a difference when Cata comes out), but for the last 5 points that go into the Destruction tree why not top off Shadow and Flame to make Shadow Bolt do more damage rather than doing Bane and making it cast faster (esp with reforging all crit to haste and mastery)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With haste being stronger for Demo than Int, will it make sense to replace Int/haste gems with pure haste gems?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for the post but I have some questions please?

1. what is the best opening cast sequence for affliction ?

2. Can we clip bane of agony too, shortly after the before last tick ?

3. Why corruption in destruction rotation (we must always keep up corruption)?

1. Although the priority is Corruption > Haunt > UA > BoA > Shadow Embrace > DS (<=25) > SB or DL; the best opening rotation should still be: SB > Haunt > UA > BoA > Corruption. Here's why: you get an early SE and a built in delay for the tank to get aggro and Corruption is cast last to possibly give time to proc trinkets to increase dmg output for the duration of the fight.

2. Has already been answered, but yes.

3. Corruption is now a valid source of dmg for destro with typical dmg around 5% for a boss fight.

@OP: great post as I've been looking for this information for the past few hours. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • I'm frankly not 100% sure of these glyphs

Spell Priority:
  • Shadowflame

First off, good morning. :) I have 2 items I wanted to point out in the Destruction section that I had suggestions for - I'd like to posit that the Glyph of Imp will do better than Glyph of Conflagrate, but I'm still testing it out to know for sure. Also, in the priority list you wrote Shadowflame as a spell, but I believe you meant Shadowburn? If not, I'd hate to have to get within melee range for that one.

Last, I have a question for you: Is CoE still not viable, or should we be using it now?

Thanks in advance for any advice/feedback!

~Des

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is CoE still not viable, or should we be using it now?

CoE is still the spell that you cast if and only if you are the only person in the raid that can provide that buff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
First off, good morning. :) I have 2 items I wanted to point out in the Destruction section that I had suggestions for - I'd like to posit that the Glyph of Imp will do better than Glyph of Conflagrate, but I'm still testing it out to know for sure. Also, in the priority list you wrote Shadowflame as a spell, but I believe you meant Shadowburn? If not, I'd hate to have to get within melee range for that one.

Last, I have a question for you: Is CoE still not viable, or should we be using it now?

Thanks in advance for any advice/feedback!

~Des

why not Incinerate ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Needed Improved Howl of Terror to move down the tree- if Soul Burn SoC were available at that level I would've taken it. Like I notced however, optional talents are optional, feel free to move those around.

[edit] @ Vo1os: I never considered that, and am also on a EU server- so I can't test it. Interesting question however.

In response to your comment, Soul Burn SoC IS a necessary PvE (raiding) talent in Wrath dungeons/raids. The trees, however, are designed with Cata dungeons and end-game raiding (lvl 85) in mind. Soul Burn SoC is a PvP talent in Cata, so not necessary for the 31-points we need to put in to the Affliction tree. Remember, Cata will focus on crowd control and will not be the AOE fest that Wrath was. Fear and CoW will be much more useful in Cata. SoC, not so much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also, in the priority list you wrote Shadowflame as a spell, but I believe you meant Shadowburn? If not, I'd hate to have to get within melee range for that one.

No, shadowflame is higher dpet then incinerate so it should be used whenever possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With haste being stronger for Demo than Int, will it make sense to replace Int/haste gems with pure haste gems?

This depends on your specific gear setup, the anwser at high end gear levels is likely yes. However also depends on latency.

1. what is the best opening cast sequence for affliction ?

Corr->UA->BoA->Haunt. The reason we previously used a shadow bolt first was solely due to crit rolling. Now that crit rolling is fixed and sp/haste/crit are updated every single time corruption gets refreshed, the extra ticks you'll get from applying dots first will outweigh the benefit of having a % more damage on 1 o2 r ticks, but also 1 or 2 ticks less in total. The reason I put haunt higher on the priority list than UA/BoA is because haunt is also responsible for Shadow Embrace esspecially below 25%), and 3 stacks of shadow embrace falling off and needing tobe re-applied will cost you a ton of damage.

Also, in the priority list you wrote Shadowflame as a spell, but I believe you meant Shadowburn?

Nope, Shadowflame. When they removed the horror effect from this in beta they decided to buff it's damage so it wouldnt be totally useless. Unfortunately now it's so powerful that we should use it in our single target DPS rotation.

I actually haven't done any testing or looked at base damage / spellpower co-efficient for shadow burn, I'm not 100% sure if we should be using that or not.

Last, I have a question for you: Is CoE still not viable, or should we be using it now?

Since you can now use CoE while also using your damage banes, using CoE is often a good idea.

And yeah- I'll check out glyphs.

PS. Please edit the large quote out of your post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, Excellent job on getting this up so early. Good work. I know this will be a living document as things change but it is great to have this as a start. Excellent start at that.

Could you clarify in your guide what to do with backdraft charges in the destruction rotation?

As I understood it as long as threat is no issue Searing Pain is better than Incinerate even when the target mob is above 50% health, so Incinerate should be dropped completely in this scenario. But how should one proceed as long as backdraft charges are left? Let them rot, or switch to Incinerate for them. The answer potentially differs once the target drops below 50%.

Threat is an issue if you are using SP from the start, but you're right it will give you much more dps/damage. I did equip a level 60 trinket just to add an additional threat dump from [Fetish of the Sand Reaver] for testing purposes. It helped but only for a short amount of time. However when I soul shattered at 50% began my SP spam I had no major issues. I did have a Paladin in raid assist me with Hand of Salvation (might want to save those for locks after 50%) as well during that time, but dps was insane. I kept my rotaion Corrup>Immo>Conflag>BOD>CB>Incx2>SP x(3-5) Always hit my conflag and CB off cool down and tried to get back to SP as fast as possible while not letting my BD rot.

It is most likely not viable threat wise to use a 100% SP rotation, if it is for you due to great tanks (or if I am perhaps underestimating tank threat in general) then you would still want to use incinerate during backdraft when above 50%. This may not have been the case previously- however since Blizzard fixed Shadow and Flame Incinerate has become slightly better at competing with Searing Pain.

I agree. I also was getting good dps from Incinerate but SP spamming was putting me around 2.5 -5k higher in certain fights. 20K threat is still going to be tough for most tanks to compete with so warlocks might become more annoying to tanks this expac, hehe. Wonder if Blizzard will just take the threat away from SP?

For the meantime, I'm going to continue to use the threat dumping trinket, so I can continue to work SP in my normal rotation till the treat issues of SP get worked out or they buff incinerate so that it will out weigh SP again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd like to posit that the Glyph of Imp will do better than Glyph of Conflagrate, but I'm still testing it out to know for sure.

Because of the Backdraft buff provided by Conflagrate, I'd imagine that being able to cast it as soon as possible would be more beneficial than the damage increase from Glyph of Imp.

However, considering that Incinerate is the lowest on the priority list of spells, perhaps replacing the Glyph of Incinerate with Glyph of Imp would prove beneficial. Hopefully one would not be using Incinerate as more than the last line of filler, so its glyph's benefits wouldn't serve much purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A few destruction questions comes to mind:

Do we stick with incinerate during heroism while below 50%? Or even use soulfire?

I still used SP with Heroism/Bloodlust and Soulfired when I got a proc. Keep in mind I also keep immo>conflag>CB in my dps priority order.

Should we reforge to haste wherever possible if under a certain number?

I would certainly go with Haste till about 1000 for destro and then go to Mastery(assuming you are already hit cap). If SP is also a major nuke spell for us, haste becomes less important to me at the moment since it doesn't take alot to make that spell move fast. I think you should keep in mind that stat priority for locks now is something like: Hit>Int>Mastery>Haste>Spell Power>Stamina?(assuming you are already hit cap).

Is it better to hardcast soulfire at the start of fight and save shards for searing pain even if only using sp below 50%?

I would (fixed)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also not sure about getting Shadowburn or shadowfury at all. I was thinking of Nether protection for raiding. Seems to give you more bang per talent. I most likely will not use Shadowburn or Shadowfury in my rotation unless I'm pvping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wouldn't.

Why wouldn't you? DPS is calculated from the moment your first spell hits. So hardcasting a soulfire at pull actually increases your dps and allows you to save your 3 shards for SP. Whenever imp soulfire expires you sould also hard cast it for the buff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why wouldn't you? DPS is calculated from the moment your first spell hits. So hardcasting a soulfire at pull actually increases your dps and allows you to save your 3 shards for SP. Whenever imp soulfire expires you sould also hard cast it for the buff.

I'm sorry I meant to say I would. Thank you.

Mainly in most fights you can pre-cast soulfire as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Threat is an issue if you are using SP from the start, but you're right it will give you much more dps/damage. I did equip a level 60 trinket just to add an additional threat dump from [Fetish of the Sand Reaver] for testing purposes. It helped but only for a short amount of time. However when I soul shattered at 50% began my SP spam I had no major issues. I did have a Paladin in raid assist me with Hand of Salvation (might want to save those for locks after 50%) as well during that time, but dps was insane. I kept my rotaion Corrup>Immo>Conflag>BOD>CB>Incx2>SP x(3-5) Always hit my conflag and CB off cool down and tried to get back to SP as fast as possible while not letting my BD rot.

Wouldn't that be Incx3 instead of 2?

Also, since they removed the <80% health for Improved Soul Fire I wonder how much this will affect the current spell "rotation"?

Will the 15% haste buff be worth casting a 4 second spell (not including and haste here) every 15 seconds?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm sorry I meant to say I would. Thank you.

Mainly in most fights you can pre-cast soulfire as well.

There's nothing wrong with Soulburning then immediately soul harvest prior to the pull to get your 3rd shard back. Plus this way it enables you to put up doom immo corruption with out insta 25k SF crit to pull right off the bat.

I find personally that, since we pop hero at the start of the fight, saving a backdraft proc for CB's cd if < Conflag CD of course, then use the two other backdrafts on incin (they're all going to be 1 sec or below). If you don't have Backdraft AND Hero/BL then use SP.

Little side note, but it does actually feel good to have to THINK, albeit not THAT much, but you still have to think while playing destro vs Ulduar destro. Doesn't it feel good to be spanking the melee now or is it just me? Getting crushed by ArP warriors for the last year...well yeah anyways. GL and have fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would I ever think of reforging crit to anything but Hit?

Hit only has priority over reforging to haste until you reach the hit cap which is 17%. Once you hit that, any additional hit points are useless. So then Haste becomes the priority. If you can't reforge to haste because haste is already there, then you go with mastery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
All talent specs can and should use guardian pets (Doom Guard / Infernal)

Ugh! What do you have as far as dps numbers for the difference between pets as Demonology. in 4.0? I largely ignored the fact that the guardian pets existed because I'm not a quester at heart and prior to this patch they were not necessary.

Edit: Didn't the guardian pets also NOT provide the Demonic Pact buff? Has that changed in 4.0?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wouldn't that be Incx3 instead of 2?

If you noticed in the rotation I gave one of the BD procs to CB.

Especially after 50% I would like to get back to SP A.S.A.P so if giving a BD proc to CB when its there, atm I have been doing so. Not much of a dps lost considering SP>Inc. with or without proc after 50%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could anyone shed light on where the importance of haste over crit for Destruction scales in?

Upon starting my testing once on live, I reforged as much spirit and crit to mastery as I could. I began testing on dummies, and kept a steady 9.5-10.5k DPS. Due to seeing the diminished amount I was obtaining critical strikes, I decided to reforge again, replacing spirit and haste for mastery, retaining all crit. After ample testing with the same conditions, I pulled a steady 12.5-13.5k DPS.

It seems to be that for Destruction, my DPS scaled much better with crit rather than haste. My Incinerate casts with Improved Soul Fire and BD proc were near GCD, and if SP is to be a crucial part of the Destruction rotation, which has a shorter cast than Incinerate, I fail to see where the haste is scaling with DPS better than crit is.

Any insight would be appreciated so I may further my testing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.