Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Exemplar

The Retribution Concordance - 4.0.1

483 posts in this topic

Great job setting this up Exemplar, love the concise breakdown.

One minor suggestion:

For the Avenging Wrath + Zealotry macro I would suggest you switch the casts around (or use showtooltip for Zealotry) like this:

#showtooltip

/cast Zealotry

/cast Avenging Wrath

This way the button/macro only lights up when you have 3 HP and Zealotry is guaranteed to activate along with Avenging Wrath, as opposed to having to coordinate with your Holy Power bar and/or risk activating Avenging Wrath while Zealotry fails to cast due to insufficient Holy Power.

Speaking of Holy Power, for those of us who still like to use OmniCC + Buttons (without CLCret or similar), has anyone found a mod that dims/colors Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm if you have less than 3 Holy Power?

Something along the lines of what tullaRange/RedRange do to out of range abilities.

I'm on the look out for a mod like that as it feels way too easy to activate one of those abilities at 1-2 HP as soon as the ability undims, at a massive DPS loss. Failing that, I'll probably attempt to write my own mod.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did you include both SoT and SoC procs in the seal damage?

I came up with it contributing 2.6% damage.

I don't believe rebuke procs seal of command. According to the talent tooltip, the command portion is attached to your swings and not to your seal hit. Can anyone confirm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(Recommended to be Glyphed mana-free) Rebuke is a must as long as it procs a seal.

I just caught a bug in how I was calculating Inquisition up-time in my spreadsheet (Inq wasn't stealing HP or GCD from TV, so I would get as many TV with or without Inq). Once the bug was fixed, I'm finding Inq is a DPS loss - in ICC gear at L80 (which isn't possible since Inq is L81). I'm pretty sure part of this is due to high haste values and the quantity of CS/TV reducing fewer spellcasts. It will be something for us to examine at L85 in 85 gear. That section is definitely up for review as we gather more data. It's possible Inq is initially good at L85, then as gear increases and we reduce CS CD that we could move to a state where No Inq was superior.

I am not sure what they intended with inquisition quite frankly, our main damaging attacks have no holy damage at all in them anymore. Was the intention to give us a slice and dice/feral fury buff (maintain at all times or its a dps loss) or something else? It would be a no brainer if it were a flat 30% buff to damage. Hopefully as we see more logs we can make a better judgement. Ill do a few more rounds with MR dummy and see what i can come up with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the general consensus is that with the new patch, Ret Pallys are going to take a dps hit no matter what, even with reforging our gear to take advantage of the new shift in stat priorities?

I guess the next question is to simply ask, is Consecration even needed now with the new rotation? Yes it does 3k dmg over it's duration, but with its 30 sec CD, does that 3K make up for what you lose in the rotation due to the GCD? I just did a ToC25 and I didn't see a whole lot of difference in my numbers between using Consecrate and skipping it.

Note that I haven't done any reforging as of yet. Before the new patch hit, I was in the process of dropping my hit rating (had way too much).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone redone the values of our tier 10 set bonuses? Since judgement and seal damage has lowered could raw stats give more dps?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exemplar, have you noticed when your CS is ~ 3 seconds due to haste that you are still waiting for a CS every time you do CS - Filler - CS?

It seems like even when my filler is not a spell my GCD is shorter. Is anyone else seeing this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent job Exemplar.

Minor addition, but if you're like me and absolutely can't stand extra buttons on the bar, here's the macro for have all 3 "finishers" on one button (much like the old Judgement macro).

#showtooltip

/cast [nomodifier] Templar's Verdict; /cast [modifier:shift] Divine Storm; /cast [modifier:alt] Inquisition

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like a 3 stack TV is hitting for 250%-260% weapon damage now instead of 225 with the new hotfix.

hotfixedtv.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems like a 3 stack TV is hitting for 250%-260% weapon damage now instead of 225 with the new hotfix.

hotfixedtv.jpg

Hammer of Wrath is critting for 20K+. Censure does more damage also.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Exemplar, have you noticed when your CS is ~ 3 seconds due to haste that you are still waiting for a CS every time you do CS - Filler - CS?

It seems like even when my filler is not a spell my GCD is shorter. Is anyone else seeing this?

I also noticed this, I have an exactly 3 second cooldown CS with a spriest. I grabbed one to bang on the dummies for a bit. There is the expected .5 second gap inbetween a spell (exo, cons and holy wrath) but I was also seeing up to .2 seconds of waiting on CS to finish it's cooldown after the gcd was up following a TV or judgement. It wasn't consistent at all though. I was around 150ms and at 20 fps. Everything seemed to be fine server stability wise as well. My guildmate suggested that it possibly could have something to do with the ability queueing system, I'm not quite sure what effect that would have though. To me though it seems that haste would still have a pretty decent value past the 3 second cooldown mark due to the number of spell fillers and the odd faster gcds of TV and judgement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have found using the addon Retribution Rotation Helper, that I found on wowinterface.com, simpler than attempting to setup the new clcinfo, I did not attempt to use the new clcret however, so that may be superior. In either case, it could be an addon option worth mentioning. It is much more basic that clcret was and clcinfo is.

About that, I tried this one yesterday too but it caused some serious fps issues for me. Maybe it was a conflict with some other addon (maybe outdated) but keep that in mind if you try it.

Good job Exemplar gathering all that info on this nice first post. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Has anyone redone the values of our tier 10 set bonuses? Since judgement and seal damage has lowered could raw stats give more dps?

this + plus the changes to 2p T9 make me wonder if 2p 277 T10 + 2p 258 T9 is superior to 4p 277 T10.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great job Exemplar,

I wanna ask isn't better to use Wings and Zealotry on different time. IF the fight is like sourfang it's OK but on fight where we have to move, I'm not so sure. For example on proff fight you can use wings just to spam HoW on slimes before you reach them (maybe even you can auto attack proff and spam HoW on slimes). 20-22k hits with spam button is insane dps gain, no need to spend and Zealotry at this time u can have it sync with BL or something.

edit: Sry didn't notice we can't spam HoW, we can use it maybe 4times only with wings up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great summary!

@Exemplar: Does your spreadsheet provide information about how often our primary skills are used in a simulated static fight using the actual preferred priority chain (frequencies for CS, TV, Exo, …)? The logs i've seen so far are very variable.

I would like to use this information to determine an optimal keyboard layout, based on these frequencies and my habits. Perhaps these informations are usefull for everyone else, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a bit confused with the rough lvl 80 stat weights and

Generic 80 Suggestion

At 80 it is recommended to Hit Cap, then Expertise Cap, then aim for the Haste soft cap (where CS CD drops to 3 seconds plus twice your typical latency). Haste beyond this soft cap will only affect autoattack and becomes less valuable than crit.

Looking at the stat weights we should go for crit as the best reforge option (assuming hit/exp cap), but the above quote suggests haste is better until the soft cap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, I tried to check out your recommended talent tree 5/0/(30+1) but couldn't get it to load.

I had hoped to see your selections.

Just letting you know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nisall, those stat weights are misleading; as far as I can tell, the weights that put crit over haste are Exemplar's weightings in his own gear currently, in which he is already haste soft-capped.

Which is to say, soft-cap haste.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Exemplar.

I have a possible suggestion. I really liked this post by Overweight, specifically the way he described our new "rotation":

I beleive the current rotation is

CS>Filler>CS>Filler>CS>Finisher

Finisher Priorities are TV (single target) DS (multi-target) or Inq (when there's less than X seconds)

Filler Priorities are Judge, Exo, HoW, HW, Cons (if mana).

<...>

We also have to watch our mastery proc (finisher becomes a filler attack) and procs from our filler attacks of HP which will cause us to cast the finisher earlier. than expected.

The effective priority order is the same as with the usual FCFS priority list you have used (you only need to replace Judge and Exo in filler priorities), but it might be easier to understand the overall idea of managing our abilities (stack HP as fast as possible, use the correct finisher and fill gaps with proper fillers) using this approach.

The problem i'm currently concerned about is the weapon to use after the patch. Yesterday, after dealing with the addon issues and resocketing/reforging my gear to get as close to haste soft cap as i could (1008 rating) i found my char having 1984 str and ~4.4k AP unbuffed. My crit is relatively high (34.80%), but these strength and AP values are definetly too low for the overal level of my gear. The issue is in my Heroic Bloodfall that has lost all of it's attack power, and the crit it holds now (in form of agility) has much less value than AP in form of str a strength weapon would have.

I ran several dummy tests to compare my damage using 277 Bloodfall and Shadow's Edge. The polearm was better on a long run. Concerning the stats impact - switching to the 264ilvl axe i lose ~4% crit and gain ~150 str(~300 AP).

But now the question is, how good the HC Bloodfall would be compared, for example, with 271ilvl Glorenzelg? With Heroic Bryntroll or Cryptmaker? And what is the general weapons rating after the patch?

(Unfortunately, armory won't display anything useful at the moment, it shows my character in it's 24-hour old state).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the new fix HoW should definately be Nr.1 Filler, i even think that HoW MIGHT be more valuable in situations it can be used (ie AW or under 20%) than TV due to the nearly 100% Crit HoW.

Just stood on the dummy for another 4million and:

A 3HP-TV still crits higher than HoW (28023TV to 24252HoW)...but on the other hand HoW does crit to somewhat nearly 100% i a raid now, while i a 4million test i've only got a measely 39% Crit on TVs.

The question is if we should still use AW and Zealotry combined...and if so, does HoW even come before TVs in those cases + under 20% ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was checking rotation and stuff on dummy this morning and it really seems we've been buffed.

Now i really aggree with ppl saying that you should use AW on different time than Zealotry. And with HoW up, he comes first on our priority, but, i have a question here. Now that we all have low crit (about 30%), when a boss drops belows 20% (or ur using AW), and can HoW it, would it be better to HoW first and delay TV? Since HoW hits (w/ only might) for 21-22k crits, and my TV was hitting for 13k, and critting for 23~25k (also w/ only might) i was wondering about it. I really wanted to test it but my server got a shutdown, so if anyone have any ideas about it, i would like to read ^^.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious to know, does anyone know if the DoT from Exorcism rolls similar to the way RV did? If it doesn't roll, would it be wise to wait until the DoT drops from boss so there's no overlap? The glyph does 20% of it's damage over six seconds, so, assuming it doesn't roll similar to RV, we would, in worst case scenario have to delay by six seconds. (i.e. not use it, instead using J, HW, Con in its' place)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm curious to know, does anyone know if the DoT from Exorcism rolls similar to the way RV did? If it doesn't roll, would it be wise to wait until the DoT drops from boss so there's no overlap? The glyph does 20% of it's damage over six seconds, so, assuming it doesn't roll similar to RV, we would, in worst case scenario have to delay by six seconds. (i.e. not use it, instead using J, HW, Con in its' place)

I believe the new dot application overwrites it in its current state.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Multiple targets

HW bumps earlier in the sequence, since it hits multiple targets, even though its damage is split between the targets.

HW does the same damage whether only 1 target is near or 10 targets, so it shouldn't change priority at all. Even in an AOE rotation J and HoW do more damage and thus should be prefered.

The only exception to this would be if you absolutely positively need to have all adds dying "at the same time", or if you are relying on the stun component of HW.

Baring this, any higher DPS is the road to go, even if you're focussing more of that dps onto a single target. Depending on the number of targets, Cons technically shifts up the more targets are near.

Zealotry

Zealotry and Avenging Wrath have identical duration and cooldown (when talented). Best usage would be to macro them together and engage as a unit.

I'm not entirely sure about this just yet. While it definately provides the highest amount of damage in a 20second timeframe (especially when matched up with trinket proc and a speed pot). It's not necessarily the highest damage over the course of a longer fight.

Under zealotry you can do the CS/TV rotation.

Under AW you can do a CS HOW CS HOW CS TV

Which with recent changes to HoW could be very interesting as well. I haven't done the math yet if combined AW+Z is better than AW followed by Z.

Additionally in a fight where you have a recurring burn phase on adds (something like valks in LK) having smaller boost every minute might be better for the raid than a single big boost every 2 minutes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.