Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Exemplar

The Retribution Concordance - 4.0.1

483 posts in this topic

Exemplar, have you noticed when your CS is ~ 3 seconds due to haste that you are still waiting for a CS every time you do CS - Filler - CS?

It seems like even when my filler is not a spell my GCD is shorter. Is anyone else seeing this?

It feels this way, yes. Especially staring at CLCRet (haven't swapped to CLCInfo, yet). However, when I look away from CLCRet I find it only feels this way because things are still on the GCD. I certainly feel "ZOMG, why do I have .3 seconds to next ability", then see "Oh, GCD has .3 seconds to go." Chalk it up to the human experience of the duration of time. Or GCD are lasting more than 1.5 seconds at times, which would suck.

this + plus the changes to 2p T9 make me wonder if 2p 277 T10 + 2p 258 T9 is superior to 4p 277 T10.

No. Stat loss from iLevel 258 is major loss. Also, since Censure appears to be getting buffed, 10% more becomes that much better.

Does your spreadsheet provide information about how often our primary skills are used in a simulated static fight using the actual preferred priority chain (frequencies for CS, TV, Exo, …)? The logs i've seen so far are very variable.

I'm hesitant to release hard information on this, since spreadsheet is still under revision, gear impacts (I currently don't have time to keep swapping gear and comparing), and Blizzard is changing stuff on us. However, as a single data point, in order of quantity used in a 5 minute Patchwerk style fight with zero mastery: CS, TV, Exo, Judge, HW, HoW, Cons. In action I'm losing some Exo, but just realized I may have CLCRet set to J > Exo, which would be my mistake and be a reason I seem to lose some AoW procs (timer runs out before I get to Exo).

Could you please add an author acknowledgement in your post, since your layout loots very much like Consider two DK threads ( http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t105521-unholy_dps_cataclysm_strongest_flame/). IF this is entirely coincidental you can in that case ignore this.
Layout stolen from Arikah's old thread, FRMorrison's Holy thread, Consider's Frost and Unholy threads. I am the author, I cannot acknowledge my own writing as someone else's. Listing all contributors in the post will A) take too much space and B) take too much time to keep updated - re-read the second paragraph. Every Ret who posts on EJ forums and a fair number of folks of other classes and specs have greatly contributed to this information. We're standing on the shoulders of giants.

@moonsond - weapon comparisons are gear dependent. For instance, Glorenzelg isn't that great if you cannot reforge away enough Expertise, but if you do need the Expertise, it's probably gangbusters. Until Rawr, Redcape, or my spreadsheet are ready for 4.0, we cannot accurately answer these questions.

Rebuke:

Can someone do a clean Rebuke test for me? Turn on SoT. Set up a "/cast Rebuke /stopattack" macro. Use it a single time. Swap to SoR, wait 10 seconds, use macro once. Screenshot, WoL the log, or upload the text file somewhere. Determining what procs what is a mess. I looked at our log from last night and I'm seeing SoC procs a full second after autoattacks and abilities (including Rebuke), so it's hard to tell what caused what. I want 100% certainty of what it does/does not proc.

Avenging Wrath and Zealotry

Nalien has pointed out to me a silly error in this. My combined macro (and guide) was to pop both together. This means you lose 1.5 sec of AW to the GCD from Zealotry. Obviously not good. Updated macro (castsequence) in OP to address. This also prevents issues where you hit the macro at less than 3 HP (like I did twice last night).

Regarding HoW during AW... out to lunch. Need the new coefficients on HoW and exactly how much TV has been buffed (somewhere near 250-260% at 3HP, per earlier poster), along with buffs to seals (which would proc from TV). If HoW pulls ahead, then unlinking the cooldowns will be the way to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It also might be worth noting that Selfless Healer is useless... unless the Word of Glory would save your life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the "sometimes shorter GCD", I noticed it happens when I use Exorcism, haven't noticed it with other abilities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take note that Selfless Healer only comes into play when you use it to heal another player, not yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It also might be worth noting that Selfless Healer is useless... unless the Word of Glory would save your life.

Assuming the change to Cleanse on the Beta makes it to Live (ie Cleanse removes snares with Acts of Sacrifice) I'll be going for Acts of Sacrifice in my PvE build to get it, especially as it also improves the cooldown on some of our key utility spells. I reckon if you need to off-heal in high-end raids to keep people alive, you're in so much trouble that I'm not sure Selfless Healer will really be worth it anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe i'm an idiot (and i'm sure you will point out if i am) but i cannot get the link for your build to work. Open in new tab, open in new window, nothing seems to work.

Any advice or assistance is appreciated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There seems to be 2 schools of thinking in terms of gemming.

Some seem to go for full strength, some go for strenght/haste in yellow sockets.

It's rather unstable right now with hotfixes being applied, so I'd rather rely on spreadsheets, so I am assuming right that full strenght is the way to go at level 80 too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the spell queue live, it's safe to assume we can ignore the 3 + 2*latency CS cooldown and just go straight for a 3s cooldown?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Regarding the "sometimes shorter GCD", I noticed it happens when I use Exorcism, haven't noticed it with other abilities.

I think what some folks are forgetting is that haste reduces spell GCD.

With enough haste to push CS CD to 3 seconds a rotation like: CS, Judge, CS or CS, HoW, CS would be perfect with no gaps. However, CS, Exo, CS or CS, HW, CS are actually CS, Exo, pause, CS.

By the time CS CD is at your latency's softcap (3.x seconds) then Exo, HW, Cons, or even DP will take less than 1.5 seconds on their GCD. If you get CS to exactly 3 seconds, then spell GCD becomes 1 second. So we'll never eliminate some wait time involved.

Spare Talent Points:

[20:31:11.234] Exemplar Eye for an Eye Cult Fanatic *5584* (O: -1)
Proof that Eye for an Eye is a DPS gain. Any fight with random targeted casts (or adds who cast and need to be killed) will have a chance to proc EfaE. It won't reflect AOE or multi-target spells (Frostbolt Volley had no reflects), but random single-target will. Random single-target isn't an extremely uncommon mechanic, so I'll stand by EfaE being the best "PvE damage maximizing" usage of our free talent. I won't update the OP, since it's such a minor thing I really think this is still subjective and thus there is no wrong or bad choice.

Due to multiple posts regarding issues with the spec links (work fine for me - possibly cache interaction), I've changed the links from MMO-Champ's wowtal.com to Wowhead's talent calculator. Hopefully this will resolve issues.

Edit:

There seems to be 2 schools of thinking in terms of gemming.

Some seem to go for full strength, some go for strenght/haste in yellow sockets.

It's rather unstable right now with hotfixes being applied, so I'd rather rely on spreadsheets, so I am assuming right that full strenght is the way to go at level 80 too?

Per my spreadsheet, it looks like a single Str/Crit (or Str/Haste if below your softcap) in a yellow socket for a +4 Str bonus is a gain. You might be able to wrangle a Str/Hit gem (for a blue socket) if you can reforge finely enough to transmute that Hit into Haste or Crit elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys, I have been doing some Ret testing this morning and things are a little better today. My initial thoughts after a night of raiding, reading what GC has said about melee getting buffed soon to compensate for the harsh DPS loss that we have seen (worse for Fury and Feral tbh) have changed my opinion a bit.

Toying with the test dummy today, I changed a couple of things around with the reforging and dropped Tiny Abomination in A Jar for heroic Deathbringer's Will combined with Herkuml War Token, I was sustaining DPS with Blessing of Might at 6800 single target on a heroic dummy. Since they have not hot fixed the issues with DPS balance, I would assume that the trinket has yielded me an increase of 1300 DPS prior to any changes that are coming. I did have to restore a couple of items since I dropped Tiny Abom which kept me at hit cap and had reforged extra hit to haste or mastery, and I reforged like 1 piece to keep me near expertise cap (24) without the Glyph of Truths which grants 10 expertise, so having Glyph of Judgment instead as a Prime I believe also improved my overall DPS and damage output.

I value any opinions on what I have tried, but I know that I was hitting 5500 on a target dummy self buffed yesterday before I got DBW and the Skeleton Lord's Circle from ICC, hitting 6800 sustained with a 7k peak with all procs and CD's blown isn't too bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...I reforged like 1 piece to keep me near expertise cap (24) without the Glyph of Truths which grants 10 expertise, so having Glyph of Judgment instead as a Prime I believe also improved my overall DPS and damage output.

I 98% guarantee that if you drop GoJ for GoSoT and reforge expertise off of gear to be at or barely over cap you will see a DPS increase.

And since it hasn't been said lately:

Target dummies are not good measures of DPS. You can test something simple like a proc mechanic most of the time, but even that isn't 100% accurate. Target dummies just don't behave 100% like a real target for whatever esoteric reason.

Not to mention the things are typically camped so debuffs will fluctuate wildly between your tests. This makes more of an impact than you may suspect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately due to bugs & disconnects we only grabbed a combat log for one boss in our ICC25 last night, but my damage for H Marrowgar (Link to WoL parse) shows 20 Manifest Anger procs, and if we assume each of those caused an average SoT and SoC proc, that amounts to only ~4.75% of my overall damage done. It would probably be slightly higher on a fight with more time on target, since there were extra exorcism and judgement casts in there compared to a normal rotation. It's also probably slightly higher since I'm assuming that Manifest Anger can proc shards for Shadowmourne, which I haven't tried to account for. Note also that I have 2/2 Seals of the Pure; relative value of TAJ would go down without it.

(Caveat: I'm sure I was also not executing our new rotation perfectly. It got better over the course of the night; really wish I had heroic Saurfang parse to look at, where I managed > 14k dps, compared to 10 on H Marrowgar. Edit: Also, I actually use the hit rating (after reforging some) on TAJ, so of course it's more valuable: 4.75% is just the value of the proc for me on that fight.)

Obviously way nerfed compared to 3.3, but I can't imagine DBW would be a 1300 dps increase over TAJ. In 3.3, Rawr had my heroic WFS accounting for about 5% of my total dps, which is pretty normal for a good trinket.

Also weird is that I got a total of 172 SoC procs over the course of this 3 minute fight. That number is higher than my total combined numbers for CS, TV, Melee, DS, Rebuke, and Manifest Anger (121 hits total), and significantly higher than SoT hits. It doesn't seem like procs from HoW, Judgement, or Exo could explain the discrepancy. Even if I assume every hit from DS procs SoC once, if DS hit 4 targets every time that still wouldn't be enough. Anyone know why that number is so high? The best hypothesis I can come up with is that SoT dot applications can proc it, perhaps.

(Edit: Ah, found the page in the other thread where this is discussed--it does seem like SoT applications proc SoC.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It feels this way, yes. Especially staring at CLCRet (haven't swapped to CLCInfo, yet). However, when I look away from CLCRet I find it only feels this way because things are still on the GCD. I certainly feel "ZOMG, why do I have .3 seconds to next ability", then see "Oh, GCD has .3 seconds to go." Chalk it up to the human experience of the duration of time. Or GCD are lasting more than 1.5 seconds at times, which would suck.

Thanks for the post, Exemplar. Enlightening and thought-provoking. I see from this post that you are still using CLCRet; my haste is still lower than the "soft" haste cap, even after reforging and regemming, but I was curious as to what you thought was the optimal Extra delay on abilities in regards to CS clipping (See CLCRet-->Behavior-->Boost CS). .5 seconds seems a little short, and I've been playing around with it but haven't come to a conclusion in my testing. Any thoughts from anyone who still uses CLCRet?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also weird is that I got a total of 172 SoC procs over the course of this 3 minute fight.

Pointing this out lead me to do some tests, it seems that the tooltip for SoT is incorrect, SoT will seal damage on white swings if there is at least 1 stack of Censure on the target, a 5 stack in NOT required. SoT will begin contributing damage to white swings with just one stack up. I just tested this, could someone please confirm? Just white swing a dummy twice with SoT active, it should show that you have done damage with SoT once.

Screenshot of recount, Censure damage included to show that a full stack was not up.

test3c.jpg

Back to the original question, with 115 SoT procs, that accounts for all but 56 of the SoC procs. Next factor in the fact that 46 melee swings adding to or refreshing SoT also cause SoC, that leaves 10 unaccounted for...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bumped CLCRet up to .7 or .8 seconds. Personal preference - got less 2nd filler suggestions.

General trinket rankings seem relatively unchanged. TAiaJ is still king. DBW jumped up ahead of ToC trinket (since DBW is no longer Armpen).

Weapons are probably best compared via rating weights. Since rating weights aren't terribly accurate, any comparison would require a salt lick. Kick out Agi weapons and slower is better. Weapons with hit or expertise can be leveraged to their full by forging those stats off the other gear. 271 Glorenzelg > 264 whatever due to iLevel and Exp no longer an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Back to the original question, with 115 SoT procs, that accounts for all but 56 of the SoC procs. Next factor in the fact that 46 melee swings adding to or refreshing SoT also cause SoC, that leaves 10 unaccounted for...

You're under-counting melee swings; there were 47 hits and crits, but also 12 glancing blows.

That makes total SoT + Censure refreshes slightly higher than SoC numbers, but I think that discrepancy can probably be explained by such things as Bone Spikes dying before SoC proc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You're under-counting melee swings; there were 47 hits and crits, but also 12 glancing blows.

That makes total SoT + Censure refreshes slightly higher than SoC numbers, but I think that discrepancy can probably be explained by such things as Bone Spikes dying before SoC proc.

Good catch, forgot about both glancing and spikes, the discrepancy is because the first hit on spikes would not generate a double SoC proc, and it also appears that the stack fell off of marrow at least once, 88% up-time, meaning that would cost another SoC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

General trinket rankings seem relatively unchanged. TAiaJ is still king. DBW jumped up ahead of ToC trinket (since DBW is no longer Armpen).

Thanks. How about Herkuml War Token, has it jumped up any steps because of the haste it brings? Thinking about if I should get that now (I have TAiaJ but will probably take some time to get DBW) instead of the WFS I have now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Testing from today:

TV: 3 stack is 290%. 1 and 2 stack remain the same.

Judge is .24 AP and .37 SP, multiplied by 1.5 for stacks.

Exo: .23 AP, 2075 base

HoW: .42 AP, .42 SP, 4330 base !

HW: .76 SP, 2095 base

Censure: .165 AP, .068 SP

Same as before:

Consecrate: .26 AP, .26 SP, 720

These numbers are not certain since we don't have accurate data mining and I just napkined them together this morning. However, they should be close and will give us a good starting point for modelling. The quick version:

Judgement is buffed 50%

Censure is buffed 33%

Exorcism's base amount is buffed

Holy Wrath's SP contribution is doubled

TV buffed 30%

HoW buffed 230% !

I am quite confident we will want to separate AW and Zealotry now. HoW and TV both hit like bastards so having two separate cooldowns to make full use of our extra buttons seems optimal.

Edit: Fixed HoW numbers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My game crashed as I was doing testing, but I think Requital and I narrowed down exactly what rebuke can and can not proc. I did this by using the CS trick, if you stand at a 90 degree angle to the dummy you can rebuke without autoattack. I basically just hit rebuke on cd until I noticed a couple procs as I figured if it can proc once or twice it can proc again.

It was pretty obvious it can proc seal of righteous and SoC hits, almost every rebuke. Seals of justice and insight seemed to get no proc, though my testing of these was cut short.

Seal of truth was interesting. I never got any procs just starting out using rebuke only. If I stacked a 5 stack first then walked away and turned sideways I could trigger the SoT proc but not the dot refresh.

Drain Life, Shadowmourne Fragments and TaJ motes all were procing while using rebuke. I was unclear if these were from the seal hits themselves or rebuke, I never seemed to get more then one at a time though (motes). I could not get a Hand of Light or a Art of War proc using rebuke. I can retest later with screenshots and a WoL later if needed, or if an extended test would be prefered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Drain Life, Shadowmourne Fragments and TaJ motes all were procing while using rebuke. I was unclear if these were from the seal hits themselves or rebuke, I never seemed to get more then one at a time though (motes).

Using Rebuke with no stacks of SoT up generated no motes or fragments for me, but it started generating them the moment I put up one stack, so it's definitely the seal from Rebuke and not the Rebuke itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rebuke + Ability

#showtooltip (Ability)

/cast Rebuke

/cast (Ability)

/startattack

One Question:

I have combined Rebuke with Exorcism in this macro. The new Blizzard Interface shows an shining Frame around the exorcism-Symbol when "art of war" proccs.

Unfortunately there is no shining-frame around the macro-exo-symbol. Is there any way to change the macro this way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One Question:

I have combined Rebuke with Exorcism in this macro. The new Blizzard Interface shows an shining Frame around the exorcism-Symbol when "art of war" proccs.

Unfortunately there is no shining-frame around the macro-exo-symbol. Is there any way to change the macro this way?

Using Dominos I put all my keybound actions/macros on a bar that's hidden, then just put the actual spells on a dummy bar so the shining frame still works.

I imagine you can do something similar with the stock UI... Put your macro on one of the extra right or bottom bars with whatever you use to cast Exo bound to it, then drag the actual spell whereever you want to see the one with the shining frame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You're forgetting that TV still procs Seal of Truth and Seals of Command and HoW does not, at least according to people testing it. I had relatively different max values than you with fairly close averages, but let's remember that dummy dps is dummy dps.

TV Average: 17k, max: 30k.

HoW Average: 21.1k, max: 24.9k.

(I was the only one attacking the dummy.)

After that however, you can factor in that the TV also procced Seal of Truth for about 1.5k-3k and Seals of Command for about 500-1k.

It would seem at the very least HoW will move up priority over Exorcism, but we'd probably need some raid tests to see if the cooldowns are worth uncoupling.

I'm bringing this discussion to the correct topic (from the cataclysm topic: way of the sword)

I had this morning a very close amount of damage as flexbutt, and I agree that HoW is now clearly superior to Exo, and I also believe it's more worth using it than crusader strike, even not procing HP. The damage is just too high, and the CD is not that big, giving it an enormous DPS.

Of course it’s just assumptions based on the probable numbers reality, and I would like to suggest that our math gurus to translate this into actual real numbers.

Redcape just gave us some information about how the damage of our skills are now, giving room to a better understanding of how our new “rotation†should be working.

Also, I have tested two 6 minutes fights on dummies (I know it's not very trustable, but it’s the best I could have this morning), one with AW+Zealotry and the other with them separated, separated had quite a big difference, about 600 dps ahead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

General trinket rankings seem relatively unchanged. TAiaJ is still king. DBW jumped up ahead of ToC trinket (since DBW is no longer Armpen).

I thought the consensus was 284 STS > 277 DBW > 271 STS > 277 TAJ > 264 DBW > 258 DV/C > 264 WFS > 264 TAJ > 251 WFS > 245 DV/C > other stuff?

With the censure change, is TAJ back up in rankings? Or am I just mistaken on the rankings themselves?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.