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Vitalstatistix

Fury DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm

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Having huge threat issues, peaking at 36k tps w/Death Wish, Bloodlust and trinkets in ICC seems unmanageable without a Paladin (or two) willing to help out with Salv on the pull, tricks or not. This was with a Warrior tank, are any of the other tank classes in a better position to apply initial threat without "ramping up"?

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Having huge threat issues, peaking at 36k tps w/Death Wish, Bloodlust and trinkets in ICC seems unmanageable without a Paladin (or two) willing to help out with Salv on the pull, tricks or not. This was with a Warrior tank, are any of the other tank classes in a better position to apply initial threat without "ramping up"?

Not to my knowledge. All of them have solid burst threat but nothing that could deal with that kind of threat straight out of the gate. Consider that:

1) DKs must apply diseases.

2) Warriors have shield slam but also need to stack sunders.

3) Paladins need time for holy power and glyph of truth to stack.

4) Not sure with bears exactly but if I recall correctly they need to get mangle lacerate and the like up and running as well.

Additionally tanks are at least partially balanced against the stacking of vengeance over time. Finally it may also be worth considering that on fights like LK and Festergut that the diminished passive reduction from no longer having bonus armor makes early application of damage reduction debuffs a high priory for tanks of all classes as well, and these abilities generally cause much less threat than their damaging counterparts.

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From all the variables of stats posted here i am starting to believe haste and hit don't have much of a difference in terms of value. Sticking to either one with gems and re-forgeries seem to produce similar range of numbers in DPS. I have tried both and have come up with 10-11k in lows to peaks on the heroic training dummies. Its like a preference; if you want haste, go all haste and if you want hit, go all hit. I know there's a big flaw in my saying but there is no substantial difference in them. Anyone has the same thoughts?

Do you mean haste and crit? Or do you mean that soft hit cap is not more important than haste? And where does that leave crit?

I ran ICC25 with about 35% unbuffed crit and 25% or so haste and I noticed my Flurry uptime on Festergut and Rotface was around 85%. Valuing haste over crit regardless of what those numbers are at means that flurry uptime will go down (more white hits with less crits will consume the flurry charges faster).

So I guess what I want to know is where the breaking point between crit and haste is (I assume that exp soft cap, str and hit hard cap are better than haste or crit, I'm completely ignoring mastery for the time beeing based on what people have said). I'm sure there is a breaking point and that haste isn't always better than crit.

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I ran four tests on the Heroic Test Dummy in an effort to establish some stat values. I was able to isolate 293 points worth of stats that I could reforge without restriction. I found that using crit as my donor stat for reforging worked best and I could only use those pieces of gear that did not have haste already on them. HWT trinket was used in lieu of DBW to minimize the RNG factor. For the control test I reforged the 293 points into dodge.

A one-button macro was used that included Bloodthirst and Raging Blow as well as Death Wish and Berserker Rage. Slam was not used due to the RNG factor of Bloodsurge and Heroic Strike was not used as I did not want rage to be a factor. Death Wish and Berserker Rage were included in the macro to test the benefits of Mastery as well as more Raging Blow strikes.

My base stats are as follows. No buffs were used except Hallows End Hit Candy to get me from 26.94% hit to over cap.

AP 4817

Haste 16.62% (545)

Crit 34.40% (890)

Mastery 8

Hit 27.13% (742)

Expertise 26

The tests were run for exactly ten minutes each.

Damage DPS Increase

Control (293 dodge) 3633443 6055.74

293 Haste 3692386 6153.98 1.62%

293 Crit 3772251 6287.09 3.80%

293 Mastery 3922169 6536.95 7.90%

The results of the tests were not what I had expected them to be.

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If you made rage a non-issue by not using HS, of course haste will end up low. Now mastery vs crit dominance is certainly interesting, but below 4M dmg test samples are hardly conclusive.

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Shha beat me to it, while it is nice to see some legitimate testing being done, the rage factor ignored in the test is arguably the most important pertaining factor to current fury DPS. I do, however, share the same eyebrow-raising reaction to the mastery results and will be interested to see more conclusive information on it.

One thing I would like to propose (and it may have already been brought up somewhere) is that with the way hit and haste work in synergistic fashion to directly control rage income, there must be an ideal level of these stats to hold where rage income is just enough to be able to use the abilities in the rotation but not excessive and capping (it could potentially be unattainable). It would make sense that each would hold a distinct rage per second (RPS) value and at a high enough total RPS (withholding ambient rage from damage), there would be diminishing value in both of these stats.

Also, there may be additional benefit in maintaining haste levels that provide weapon swings (rage income) specifically when abilities are being used in the rotation. I plan on doing some testing and napkin math later this evening to see if I can come up with some concrete values.

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Seeing there are a lot of people posting parses about doing stuff this way or that or do this and someone else saying do this and there is real concrete thing to do with hours of testing I have pretty much done the math that I think is pretty much right. So below is what I came up with please feel free to test out what I say before denying it.

[stats]

Damage: 3990-4953

DPS: 1511.5/922.3

Speed: 2.99/2.91

Haste: 24.6

Hit Chance: 26.5%

Crit Chance: 41.05%

Expertise: 25

Yellow Slots = Str - Crit

Blue slots = Str - Hit

Red Slots = Str

Meta = 21 Crit 3% Increased Crit Damage

[Prime Glyphs]

Glyph of Blood Thirst

Glyph of Slam

Glyph of Raging Blow

[Major Glyphs]

Glyph of Cleaving

Glyph of Death Wish

Glyph of Victory Rush/Heroic Throw/Charge ( Your Preference )

[Minor Glyphs]

Glyph of Battle-shout

Glyph of Berserker Rage

Glyph of Demo/Command/Enduring Victory ( Your Preference )

- Best Gear Setup I have come up with and use -

( I am still theory crafting with other pieces this may change )

(Heroic)[sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Helmet] -- (Substitute) [Landsouls Horned Greathelm]

(Heroic)[sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Battle-plate]

(Heroic)[sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Legplates]

(Heroic)[sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Gauntlets]

(Heroic)[Raging Behomoth's Shoulder-plates] -- (Substitute) [sanctified Ymirjar Lord's Shoulders] --

(Heroic)[blood-Soaked Saronite Stompers]

(Heroic)[Coldwraith Links]

[shadowmourne]

(Heroic)[Cryptmaker]

(Heroic) [Gluth's Fetching Knife]

(Heroic)[Deathbringer's Will]

(Heroic)[sharpened Twilight Scale] -- (Substitute) Whispering Fanged Skull --

(Heroic)[Might of Blight]

[Ashen Band of Endless Might]

(Heroic)[Lana'tehl's Chain of Flagellation] -- (Substitute) [Ahn'kahar Onyx Neckguard] --

(Heroic)[Polar Bear Claw Bracers]

(Heroic)[Winding Sheet] -- (Substitute) [Might of the Ocean Serpent] --

[Reforge]1

Now looking at a few pieces of the gear you will notice quite a few pieces all ready come with hit on them which is one of the first things you want to do to make sure you get to around 26.5-27% Hit. This obviously as some of you might know to become hit capped or close to it. I am at 26.5% I still have yet to get a miss so far.

[Reforge]2

Now there have been some people saying to keep crit or keep haste or keep mastery or swap it for this and that and again no one is really giving people on what they should be doing so from what I have came up with which is what the best I have came up with is Reforging Crit into Hit till you're around the 26.5-27%. I have around 40% Crit and 24.5% Haste. I tried Haste for hit and saw a good 700 + in dps loss. (Feel free to do the test yourself)

[Expertise?]

Also I know a lot of people are going Expertise to 26 but I have been messing around a bit and I've went around 22-25 and with being at 22 I had 2 parries within 1 million damage, with 25 I had zero I am still testing this so feel free to do so yourself.

[Priority]

No matter what testing you've done you have probably realized or well realize now that Heroic Strike is your #1 priority ALWAYS! It does the most damage with Blood Thirst coming to a #2. You should only use Raging Blow when Heroic Strike and Blood thirst are on Cool down. Do not and I repeat NEVER use Raging Blow or anything else with low rage and rage starve and keep yourself from using Heroic Strike as soon as it's up. There are also some people saying Slam is worthless well you're almost right and some people are ignoring it completely which again If Heroic Strike, BT , RB are on cool down and you have 80+ Rage then go ahead and use the Slam Proc. Also keep in mind you have Berserker Rage and Battle shout for more rage and you throw that in when you can! You will sometimes have to choose between BT or Battle Shout = If you need the rage then BS if not BT and use BS when Bt is on CD and HS and BS together.

So in reality it goes like this =

HS-BT-(RB)=Only if HS & BT on CD- Slam with 80+ Rage & everything else is on CD

[Procs and Timers]

I highly recommend using proc timers for cool downs and to keep yourself aware of when things are coming up and how much time something has left till it procs or when it is going to proc. I use a customized one I made myself but some out there you can use are Power Aura's - Satrina - Elkano's Buff Bar - MSBT . Alot of you don't keep an eye on procs feel free to look at the list below.

Deathbringer Will = Aim of the Iron Dwarves | Speed of the Vrykul | Strentgh of the Taunka

Sharpened Twilight Scale = Piercing Twilight

Battle Trance = Have a % change to make your next special attack that costs more than 5 rage consume no rage.

Death-wish = Increases Physical Damage by 25%

Recklessness = Your next 3 Special Ability attacks have an additional 100% to critically hit.

Incite = Your next Heroic Strike will be a Critical

Berserk = Attack power Increased by 400

Enrage = Physical Damage increased by 10%

Flurry = Attack speed increased by 25%

Chaos Base = Strength increased by 270

Frost-forged Champion = Attack Power Increased by 480

I have all of these active within around my character or near it so I can see them , Now I am sure some of you are thinking well why does he have this or that active some of them may not be as important as others but I like to keep an eye on them. For instance you do not wanna blow your DW and Recklessness right off the back on the boss pull I know some of you do that and it's a dps loss and your thinking the sooner you blow it the sooner it's up again.

The idea is to start off with the priority above and you wanna try and get a DBW Proc - STS Proc - and FFC proc along with Enrage and flurry, As many as you can get up and then blow Recklessness and then DW for the most possible damage. This may take some time to perfect or get used to and lucky procs but try and get atleast 4+ Procs and then use Reck and DW. I have found that Strength of the Taunka definitely pulls in the most damage if you don't get it don't worry about it but if you do watch the numbers fly.

My Target Dummy Parses Range from 12.8k - 14.2k

Most ICC 25 Boss Encounters providing I don't get RNG'd 21-38kDPS (38k=BQL)

I think I covered about everything I might of missed something but I'll let you know!

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Voric, I disagree with your ability priority. Every parse I have from dummys and raids shows Raging Blow being the most efficient followed by bloodthirst followed by heroic strike in terms of damage per rage. Yes, heroic strike hits harder, but it's not hitting 50% harder than a raging blow or bloodthirst as the rage increase would suggest. In a rage-unlimited situation pure damage would be the key, but given the new need for some conservation, you're better off going for the more efficient use.

I think the disparity of finding raging blow as the least damaging comes from it registering as two separate hits so the average damage would be double what recount shows.

I'm definitely gonna have to test out the expertise thing

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Seeing there are a lot of people posting parses about doing stuff this way or that or do this and someone else saying do this and there is real concrete thing to do with hours of testing I have pretty much done the math that I think is pretty much right.

You say you have done the math but I can't seem to find it anywhere in your post, do you have any logs or empirical data backing this up at all?

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@Voric:

Nadoo is right. There is an inherent contradiction in your HS>BT>RB "priority". Since HS is off the GCD the only priority can be rage. But you argue that even though HS is less rage efficient, rage isn't an issue. If it weren't an issue, then HS wouldn't need to have a priority relative to other abilities.

Stacking hard hit cap and haste, you're going to have enough rage to hit BT, RB, and HS on cooldown. The only priority you would need to assert would be BT>RB or RB>BT. And even then between one parse and the next you're not going to notice a big difference.

Regardless, I tried some dummy parses with the same stats you mentioned (41% crit, 24% haste, hard hit cap) and I was able to hit BT, RB, and HS on cooldown, but I saw a DPS decrease of around 1000 DPS over my normal stats which minimize haste and stack hit/crit.

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@ Voric

I chain Deathwish and Beserker rage. I do not need the 5 rage generated by beserker rage as indicated in my last post. That means that when I start the fight, I use Deathwish, wait for it to be over and then use beserker rage. This means that insted of being 100% sure that I am enraged for 30 seconds, I am 100% sure that I am enraged for 40 seconds. As soon as beserker rage comes back along, I use it again. In the case that Deathwish's CD would be over while beserker rage would still be an active aura on me, I wait the 2-3 seconds for berserker rage to fall off and then use Deathwish.

As for HS vs RB, maybe its my gear that does this, but I hit harder with RB. I'll post stats when I can, or armory Pigfat.

Edit: I just thought of something. I was hitting harder with RB when I was trying out stacking mastery. I do not know if I'm still hitting harder now that I'm not stacking mastery.

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First, there is a point of internal inconsistency in your guide, Voric. You say to gem for Strength/Crit, but to reforge from Crit into Hit, rather than from Haste. If Haste is better than Crit (it's valued as such according to the reforging part of the guide), than we ought to be gemming Strength/Haste. If Crit is better (as the gemming guide implies), then we ought to be reforging to Hit from Haste. If there is some breakpoint where the superior stat changes (hypothetically, haste > 20%, or such), then that's worth addressing specifically. As it stands, this matter as it is inconsistent with itself.

Second, BT should be prioritized over RB, with probably the only possible exception when you have a short enough time on an Enrage effect that delaying RB by 1.5 seconds will cause it to be unusable (not that Voric suggests it, but it's show up a few times in here, and I just want to explain why it's wrong). The reason is simple: despite dealing less damage (BT seems to do around 75-80% of the damage of RB), Bloodthirst is on a 3 second cooldown, and Raging Blow is on a 6 second cooldown. Presuming you'll still have an enrage effect and will be able to use RB after the GCD passes, delaying it 1.5 seconds causes significantly lower damage loss than delaying Bloodthirst 1.5 seconds. For exactly the same reason, we used BT > WW in the 3.x rotation. It's possible that at some high level of Mastery, RB's EDPS (damage divided by effective cooldown) would become greater than BT's, but Mastery currently appears to be a weak stat for Fury so that makes it kind of a moot point.

Third, the comparison between BT and HS in priority will depend solely on Damage Per Rage, not on "which hits harder." To that end, the DPR calculations are... interesting. Basically, HS has a lower damage per rage than BT baseline. Even incorporating the higher crit rates of HS, BT does about 70-75% of the damage of Heroic Strike, at 66.7% of the rage cost, which means BT has slightly higher DPR and ought to be prioritized in a scarce-rage situation. However, Battle Trance alters things. With perfect use, it reduces the average rage cost of HS by 15% to 25.5 rage, which puts HS clearly ahead in terms of damage per rage. Of course, we all know there *won't* be perfect use of Battle Trance, and if we presume that 1/3 battle trance procs will be used on Raging Blow, then the effective rage cost of HS will be around 27, which puts it about equal with BT. Bloodthirst's damage-per-rage will still come out barely ahead if we allow the possibility that some Battle Trance procs will fall to BT (While not enraged, if you use BT slightly before HS, but lag delays a Battle Trance proc until after the Heroic Stirke has consumed rage, HS will be on cooldown when BT is up). Personally, it looks close enough to me that I'll wait for the simulator folks to really get a precise take on it before proclaiming one to be better DPR than the other. It's worth noting that Raging Blow's damage per rage is a good deal better than either BT or HS, but that longer cooldown probably means that it's better to delay RB slightly to get in a few more swings for more rage.

Note: Approximate relative damage between abilities pulled from 6 million damage dummy tests and from a few raid parses.

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The idea is to start off with the priority above and you wanna try and get a DBW Proc - STS Proc - and FFC proc along with Enrage and flurry, As many as you can get up and then blow Recklessness and then DW for the most possible damage.

Flaws:

> Enrage does not stack with Deathwish

> The Iron Dwarf Crit proc from DBW will not stack with Recklessness

> Activating Recklessness will also activate flury

Anyone who has played a warrior for a while should know better. Also with the changes to threat requiring build up time burning all your CDs up front and unloading on the boss with a string of crits in the first 20 seconds will probly leave you dead on the floor.

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^It does actually. I tried it last night. I was dead on the floor.

During the first 20 seconds of a pull, I'm thinking new mechanics will suggest dps should lay off. So while tanks are applying any debuffs they have to the boss and building up threat, Fury Warriors could focus on building up full rage, easing into their priority and throttling up their damage, before using Death Wish and/or other special Cool Downs.

As always, efficient Cool Down management will be a key to the highest level of play.

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Well about the new threat mechanics, MD et ToTT are not that useless, the threat they transfer stays for 30 seconds. That means if the tanks gets enough MD, and then builds enough threat on his own, you can go all out from the beginning as you won't overaggro when the threat is lost.

I didn't have so much threat problems on my last week's icc run (on saturday, after the warrior buff), pulling 20k+ish on saurfang/festergut.

The problem with delaying the first DW is losing the benefit of stacking it with procs (especially dbw that lasts 30s). You should better ask for more redirects on tanks, et maybe ask your prot war to get a slow weapon as it's now quite better for TPS.

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So did anyone try going dual spec - TG and SMF? Seems sensible to do, now that our execute range is so beefy. Use TG till 20%, switch to 1handers for 15% more dmg from execute (and everything else - HS and melee as well). Of course you will lose on a bit of stats, but still might give you more then 1 point in incite.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the current gear that's available, there isn't too many 1hr's that's worth trying yet. I mean, what has enough AP or secondary stats that would be worth tossing the huge Str. from 2 hander's? I've heard the fist weapon, -might- be plausible. (the bruiser or w/e) The dagger that gens. rage is neat, but there isn't anything worth switching to one hander's in my opinion.

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Thats the truth in general about 1h fury. It has not much to do with current itemization - 2x2h will always have large stat advantage. My point is - those disadvantages shouldnt be enough to overshadow 15% dmg buff - for that kind of boost you would easily need 400-500 STR. And during execute range nothing actually benefits from theextra average dmg of 2handers.

Also lets not overreact about agility weapons. When it comes to armor - agility piece is usually a very bad thing since you lose 5% str from plate spec (accounting to 100+ str). When it comes to weapons or jewelry? Not so much.

With rough calculations agility weapons/jewelry have 10% more AGI then their str counterparts have STR. This is due to lower stamina on them. Now agility isnt useless - with my calculations earlier in threads on this forums, i counted SEP for my crit at around 75-80% (if we talk about cataclysm it will be much higher - due to lower crit rates and access to deep wounds). Assuming 0.75 SEP, agility sep is still more then 0.55 (counting mark/kings). Add the 10% boost and we talk about losing 40% of STR by going from a STR piece to AGI one - which averages to around 40 STR loss.

Is that kind of loss serious? Sure. Will it make a good spec garbage, or other way round? Unlikely. Having "unoptimal" 1handers means comparatively "forgetting to flask".

My point is - actual weapons are secondary. Primary concern is, will 15% dmg buff for EXECUTE range outperform 1 point in incite.

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I guess if people wanted to test the 1h theories, they could perhaps sap into honor points, and get the wrathful 1h's? Would the resil taking the spot of a secondary stat make them worthless? I don't think so, with all the AP those weapons have, why not :)

What else do you have to use the honor on?

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I guess if people wanted to test the 1h theories, they could perhaps sap into honor points, and get the wrathful 1h's? Would the resil taking the spot of a secondary stat make them worthless? I don't think so, with all the AP those weapons have, why not :)

What else do you have to use the honor on?

There is also black bruise heroic. It's AP itemized. Might be more relevant to check with a 277 mainhand.

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Well, with heroic Cryptmaker, you're looking at 159 strength baseline, with an extra 48 with matching sockets, plus just over twice the secondary stats (crit, hit, etc) of a one-hander. Let's presume that you'll be hit/expertise capped with either set of weapons (slightly annoying to deal with, and probably leading to being over cap on one set or another), 1h or 2h so all the secondary stats on the weapons will be haste/crit (from reforging hit off of Cryptmaker, it's about equal to the hit on a Bloodvenom Blade), and we'd probably be looking at 2% crit and 3% haste more from the 2h weapons, on top of what already looks like 400ish strength between two of them.

I'm not sure if that's going to equal 15% execute damage, I doubt it would but have no hard evidence. Still, you'd also be losing white swing damage, due to the higher baseline dps of 2h weapons, even further exaggerated due to the 25% haste buff of Executioner. Add in that you'll be blowing a GCD on a weapon switch and resetting the swing counter, that probably cuts further into the damage. While I wouldn't at all be surprised if SMF would still do more damage in Execute range, I'd also suspect that most execute phases won't be long enough to make up for the damage lost via switching and the missing talent point from Incite or War Academy, which is going to take a healthy bite out of Heroic Strike for the entire fight.

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So did anyone try going dual spec - TG and SMF? Seems sensible to do, now that our execute range is so beefy. Use TG till 20%, switch to 1handers for 15% more dmg from execute (and everything else - HS and melee as well). Of course you will lose on a bit of stats, but still might give you more then 1 point in incite.

You can't change spec in combat. Unless that changed with 4.0? Don't see why it would though.

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He was suggesting having one spec with both TG and SMF by taking one point out of Incite and putting it into SMF. His mention of dual spec was probably just a suggestion that this not be used as your primary spec until it can be determined whether or not it actually beats a TG-only build.

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You can't change spec in combat. Unless that changed with 4.0? Don't see why it would though.

Shha is suggesting you create a spec with both 31-pt talents, using Titan's Grip 2H advantage for the main part of the fights, and switching to one-handers at the execute range, thereby activating Single-Minded Fury and it's 15% damage increase on 1-handers. You still can't change spec in battle.

I think I agree with thebitterfig, execute phases tend to be short and probably it won't be a DPS increase. But it would be nice seeing some numbers.

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