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Vitalstatistix

Arms DPS: 4.0 and Cataclysm

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Seems you got to me first, hehe. After reading your first post, I wanted to try a simple test to check it out. The test consisted on applying Rend, do nothing else than auto-attack, reapply Rend as soon as it expires and end auto-attacking before the second Rend expires. Doing this I got values between 1002 to 1403 DPS, with 12 ticks of Rend.

I then did another test consisting in using TC to reapply Rend just before it expires, ofcourse, ending the test by stoping auto-attack before the second Rend expires. I got values from 1262 to 1617 DPS, with 11 and sometimes 12 ticks of Rend, meaning if timed right, you won't lose ticks. This might be a glitch, but it happened.

I didn't use any other abilities and did it on Battle stance as to not jeopardise the results. I also discarded the extreme, unreal cases, i.e., getting 0% or 80% crit chance on Auto-Attacks.

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For what it's worth, the classical interaction of stats, buffs and dots for shadow priest is as follows :

- Contribution (or procs) of AP / Spellpower is calculated on cast / refresh (including auto-refresh) ;

- contribution of haste / crit gear buffs on the player is calculated on cast / refresh (haste is sometimes an exception and can be rolled as long as the dot is kept up)

- contribution of haste / crit debuffs on the mob is calculated on the cast / refresh;

- contribution from damage percentage buffs on the player is calculated on the cast / refresh;

- contribution from damage percentage debuff on the mob is calculated for each tick.

One way to integrate it in one algorithm is as follows:

- at each cast or refresh, the dot ticks value, crit rate and frequency (haste) are computed and stored;

- then any damage received (included from dots) is multiplied by the damage percentage modifiers, when the damage are received.

This makes sense because damage percentage modifiers apply the same modification / operation to all damage, whereas the crit / haste modifiers depends on the crit / haste rate of the casted spell.

As for the refresh mechanism, the basic rule is as follows :

- if the dot is already up when the refresh is, the next tick time is not changed. The new duration is the sum of the time to next tick and the base duration.

- if the dot is applied, the duration is the base duration, and the first tick is at the "expected" time.

I've done no testing, but it is likely that rend follows the same rules. Haste rolling might be possible though.

Edit : some dots applied on crit / cast, such as deep wounds, have different behaviour, because Blizzard avoids double dipping effect when possible (for example, critting deep wounds would :

1/ increase your deepwounds "deposit" (you have more crit, hence it applies more frequently)

2/ increase your deepwounds damage at constant deposit, because it will crit more often.

3/ Potentially (but they could disable that), allows deep wounds to proc from itself, which makes it basically out of control.

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Well, Rend *should* follow the general rules of dots. Deep Wounds behaves differently because it has a buffer so the additional damage from a new crit is rolled into the existing one more or less like Ignite. Even DW damage per tick changes depending on the presence of Trauma, but I'm not sure there is anything else that can affect its tick damage only.

We probably can simplify saying that the buffs on YOU are applied on cast/refresh, the debuffs on the target may be applied on tick and the refresh extends the duration by the entire tick count (in the case of Rend 6), but I didn't do extensive testing.

The problem of solo testing Rend as arms is that we apply 2 debuffs at once: bleeds and physical damage. The latter also applies only when a bleed is ticking. So if the first tick deals 1 damage the second one should deal 1.352 damage. Since Trauma lasts 1 minute the first tick on the reapplication should deal 1.3 and the following ones again 1.352.

As I said already, the first tests I did about 2 months ago had a different behaviour because both buffs and debuffs seemed calculated per tick, so swapping stance provided a Rend tick change. I don't know if any other dot showed this behaviour before.

However the current behaviour, which seems aligned with other dots, has some interesting effect on our decision to refresh or reapply: if you have a buff that will expire before the last tick it may be better to refresh (and thus using TC) rather than reapply Rend. This is something I never considered since I assumed it changed on a tick basis.

Also, I couldn't do anything to let Rend "roll", but maybe the rolling is only tied to haste which doesn't affect it at all.

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I haven't seen any parses detailing exactly how much harder Execute hits when compared to Mortal Strike in a raid setting, so if it is really not a contest then it might be best to just spam it.

Very limited data from last night: execute hits significantly harder then MS after the hotfix. Not quite double but up in the range of 75% more damage.

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From my testing, it doesn't look like the 115% WD mastery has been implemented yet. When it is, I think Mastery could overtake Crit as a desirable stat.

My parses in ICC25 last night showed that opportunity strikes was hitting harder then melee swings, I reforged my haste to mastery based on that.

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Very limited data from last night: execute hits significantly harder then MS after the hotfix. Not quite double but up in the range of 75% more damage.

I can confirm this. I've seen my MS hit for 14k while Execute going for 21k. As a reply to Rsydion, you might want to drop OP but not MS due to LttS talent.

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parse_01.jpg

Damage for Strikes of Opportunity has been increased to ~115% as per patch notes.

The boost may also increase the value of Expertise, since Mastery procs are tied to melee hits — reducing the compensatory potential of Overpower. If a dodged melee attack and its lost Opportunity Strike would not have critted, a rare normal Overpower hit would result in a ~25% damage loss (breaking even with LttS); while a critical Overpower would produce up to double damage with LttS. But if both the dodged melee attack and its lost Opportunity Strike would have critted — increasingly likely as gear improves — a critical Overpower would need LttS to produce a slight net gain. Even assuming no repercussions from Overpower's GCD and rage cost, that's an awful lot of makeup work.

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Damage for Strikes of Opportunity has been increased to ~115% as per patch notes.

The boost may also increase the value of Expertise, since Mastery procs are tied to melee hits — reducing the compensatory potential of Overpower. If a dodged melee attack and its lost Opportunity Strike would not have critted, a rare normal Overpower hit would result in a ~25% damage loss (breaking even with LttS); while a critical Overpower would produce up to double damage with LttS. But if both the dodged melee attack and its lost Opportunity Strike would have critted — increasingly likely as gear improves — a critical Overpower would need LttS to produce a slight net gain. Even assuming no repercussions from Overpower's GCD and rage cost, that's an awful lot of makeup work.

Likewise the buff to the mastery swing further drives down the value of slam if slam pauses the swing timer still (which I'm pretty sure it still does) because using more slams will drive down the number of whites and therefore the number of Strikes of Opportunity (SoO?).

I'm not sure slam really has much of a role in our "rotation" now. With the 15 second rend, 3 second heroic strike CD, 6 second MS CD, and 6 second OP CD (when exp capped), I never found myself in a position to not be able to use one of those. The slam damage is so far behind heroic strike and the rage cost so high- it doesn't seem to have a place.

Bladestorm also seems to have no role for single target DPS as the WW crits were around 40% of a heroic strike or MS for me and even corrected for GCD it's well behind another attack for single target DPS.

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Raided ICC25 as Arms this weekend. Check armory for spec and gear. Favoring Heroic Strike + 3/3 Incite over Slam + Battle trance in regards to priority and those couple of talent points. On most fights, I only used Slam when flooded with excess rage or during Deadly Calm with maximum HS usage. Here is the WoL raid parse for Friday night for you number-crunchers if it can be used to help gather some information.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I haven't raided as Arms since Ulduar so there's a little bit of learning curve here because of that and the new talents, but the above priorities and having Incite appeared to do really well.

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New Beta Build has this little gem in it: "Taste for Blood will not occur more than once every 5 sec, down from 6 sec."

This seems pretty useless if Rend is still not scaling with haste, making a difference only in the occasional case of a clipped rend, which while useful, won't come up often.

I'm wondering if maybe that change is a sign that they decided to relent on their position and allow melee DoTs to scale with haste. A 5second ICD would allow Rend/TFB to scale without any problems up until 20% haste, which is a pretty solid softcap for haste, all things considered. Anyone on Beta want to test to see if this is the case?

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We probably can simplify saying that the buffs on YOU are applied on cast/refresh, the debuffs on the target may be applied on tick and the refresh extends the duration by the entire tick count (in the case of Rend 6), but I didn't do extensive testing.

That's not really correct.

The best way to say it is that damage multipliers debuff on the mob are applied on tick, any other buff/debuff is applied on cast / recast, and that refreshing between the 2nd to last and last tick is equivalent to refresh just after the last tick.

As for testing, you might want first to test in an other spec, where you can try to pop trinket / use cooldowns, and study their effect and the refresh mechanism.

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...so the priorities stats are now:

Hit til cap (8%) > exp (26) > str > crit til ~30% > mastery > crit > haste.

Correct?

One more thing, after seeing so many logs and graphs, at execute phase, stay at zerk stance for MS Execute spam and skip OP, rend or slam (+HS when DC)

Kind of, apparently you only need an expertise rating of 172/173, or 22 expertise, to not get dodged while behind a boss. Obviously adjust the necessary rating for weapon racials.

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New Beta Build has this little gem in it: "Taste for Blood will not occur more than once every 5 sec, down from 6 sec."

This seems pretty useless if Rend is still not scaling with haste, making a difference only in the occasional case of a clipped rend, which while useful, won't come up often.

I'm wondering if maybe that change is a sign that they decided to relent on their position and allow melee DoTs to scale with haste. A 5second ICD would allow Rend/TFB to scale without any problems up until 20% haste, which is a pretty solid softcap for haste, all things considered. Anyone on Beta want to test to see if this is the case?

I think this has more to do with server latency. It used to miss procs at every 6 seconds pretty often, so I'm sure they just changed it to get rid of that problem (unless you have extreme amounts of latency lag). Rend shouldn't miss overpower procs now. I know in raids I used to miss the OP proc on some ticks of rend every three or four rend cycles, and it really messed up my groove.

I remember posting about this over a year ago (edit: about 10 months ago) on the Warrior forums (edit: bug report forums) as a change that needed to happen due to messing up rotations from missed procs due to rend and Overpower being so tightly tuned to have to occur exactly in sync lest a proc is lost.

My quote in December of 2009:

The second bug is Taste for Blood missing procs. If I am correct in my assumption, it is designed to "proc" every six seconds considering you have rend up (coinciding with the ticks, of course). However, it will fairly often skip a tick (and sometimes even two) before proccing again (for example, it will proc at the first tick of rend at 18 seconds remaining, then skip the 12 second remaining tick and proc on the 9 or even skip that one and proc on the 6). I am fairly sure this has to do with latency creating a delay, and the delay eventually leading to disrupting the skill ICD. Again, this pretty much kills our rhythm, which is very important to being successful as Arms compared to everyone else today. I suppose one solution would be to change the ICD to something like 5 seconds instead of 6, since rend only ticks in three second intervals anyway. It would give a bit more leeway on any latency issues and wouldn't generate any more maximum ticks than the current implementation (aside from MAYBE one every six rends or so if you time the rend applications perfectly).

Source:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [bUG] Sudden Death + Taste for Blood (PVE)

As a response to earlier posts, I don't see dropping Overpower in the execute phase as a good idea. it has a one second GCD and almost always crits, making it do more damage on average than the other skills (per use, aside from Execute), and far more damage per rage. Of course, that being said, it does require that you apply rend every 15-18 seconds to keep it going, which costs an Execute. This is another situation where having a simulation model would be wonderful.

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If TfB can proc every 5 sec, and Rend ticks when you apply it. Can you apply rend every 5 sec to get quicker TfB procs? Not that it would even be worth it, just curious.

I guess if this was possible then you would be able to spam rend and see dmg every gcd, which I don't think is the case.

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If TfB can proc every 5 sec, and Rend ticks when you apply it. Can you apply rend every 5 sec to get quicker TfB procs? Not that it would even be worth it, just curious.

I guess if this was possible then you would be able to spam rend and see dmg every gcd, which I don't think is the case.

That would be very difficult and a definite DPS loss considering the GCD is 1.5 seconds. You would have to delay skills to do that. It would go something like rend > mortal strike > (GCD skill or Overpower) > wait 1 second or 0.5 seconds, depending on what you used > rend again.

Should definitely be possible though, since it does proc off of the initial rend application damage.

Edit: Hellord has the better answer. I forgot that applying rend extends the duration instead of resetting it (by 3 seconds I think?).

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Applying Rend while it's ticking doesn't change the tick frequency. The only possible way to increase the procs is applying additional Rends with skewed frequency.

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As a response to earlier posts, I don't see dropping Overpower in the execute phase as a good idea. it has a one second GCD and almost always crits, making it do more damage on average than the other skills (per use, aside from Execute), and far more damage per rage. Of course, that being said, it does require that you apply rend every 15-18 seconds to keep it going, which costs an Execute. This is another situation where having a simulation model would be wonderful.

Using Jungard's WoL report, i think Rend is also worth using during execute phase even without TfB considerations. Assuming Execute and rend have equal crit rates (which looks/should be close to true), Execute was hitting for 17k average noncrit and Rend will be doing 6 ticks of 2.5k, which is 15k noncrit. I dont know the average rage cost of execute but even assuming 15rage as a very forgiving estimate, Rend is outperforming executes efficiency. Of course this is taking into account that rage is still a finite resource. But it seems to me like Rend is probably the most rage efficient attack we have, all on it's own. If the boss has a very short time to live, this pushes things in favor of execute, but as long as most of the rend can tick out and give OP usability on top of that, i think its worthwhile.

Assuming a world where Slam actually matters and the priority is supposed to be MS->OP->Slam then HS rage burning, i think execute simply replaces Slam in the priority list and at that point nearly all gcd's are filled so you have to skip Slams and resort to HS to burn any excess rage.

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Using Jungard's WoL report, i think Rend is also worth using during execute phase even without TfB considerations. Assuming Execute and rend have equal crit rates (which looks/should be close to true), Execute was hitting for 17k average noncrit and Rend will be doing 6 ticks of 2.5k, which is 15k noncrit. I dont know the average rage cost of execute but even assuming 15rage as a very forgiving estimate, Rend is outperforming executes efficiency. Of course this is taking into account that rage is still a finite resource. But it seems to me like Rend is probably the most rage efficient attack we have, all on it's own. If the boss has a very short time to live, this pushes things in favor of execute, but as long as most of the rend can tick out and give OP usability on top of that, i think its worthwhile.

Assuming a world where Slam actually matters and the priority is supposed to be MS->OP->Slam then HS rage burning, i think execute simply replaces Slam in the priority list and at that point nearly all gcd's are filled so you have to skip Slams and resort to HS to burn any excess rage.

From my experience with Execute range, using a Rend -> MS -> Execute (with benefit of the Slaughter debuff) priority indeed doesn't really allow for Slam or Heroic Strike usage in terms of rage availability. I had enough rage for the occasional HS at the same time (especially if Deadly Calm was up again at some point in < 20%) but that's really it. I'm not sure how it would compare to skipping rend and just going through a MS/Execute-only cycle, but here is what I was doing:

- Prioritized MS > Execute for the purpose of getting the Lambs to the Slaughter buff up for my next Execute.

- The cycle then looks something like MS -> Execute -> X

- For X, I would either reapply rend, use another Execute or Overpower.

- I tried the occasional overpower to see how well allocating the Slaughter buff only to Execute worked. Weaving in the occasional OP when Rend didn't need refreshing was at least the better decision for rage conservation.

-

In conclusion, it's a no-brainer to hit MS over Execute because of that 30% modifier. The argument for using Rend during the < 20% cycle is the same as weaving in the occasional Overpower. If you're really having to watch your rage to ensure you have enough for your MS and Execute big hitters, it's probably more worthwhile to use Rend and Overpower during that time than to use Heroic Strike to burn rage.

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OP has still been 100% crit rate for me in raids and because of that, the low rage cost, and the lowered GCD it should take priority over MS in the rotation. It doesn't crit as hard as MS but the crit rate makes the average OP>average MS every time.

MS adds 30% damage though (Lambs to the Slaughter), so using that buff with Overpower is the point of using MS first. Since it does almost always crit, it will get a higher benefit from the 30% buff compared to Mortal Strike 4.5 seconds later.

In execute range, MS is still prioritized for the same reason. Giving Execute the 30% buff is the reason it is done.

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MS adds 30% damage though (Lambs to the Slaughter), so using that buff with Overpower is the point of using MS first. Since it does almost always crit, it will get a higher benefit from the 30% buff compared to Mortal Strike 4.5 seconds later.

In execute range, MS is still prioritized for the same reason. Giving Execute the 30% buff is the reason it is done.

After recent changes 20+rage Exe>OP if you have Ltts up. If you can delay OP to get another MS with Ltts is probably better aswell cause of the insane multiplier for MS. In general you can't do this consistently because of cd collisions. Depending on the gear and T4B cooldown, the rage treshold for Exe priority changes.

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MS adds 30% damage though (Lambs to the Slaughter), so using that buff with Overpower is the point of using MS first. Since it does almost always crit, it will get a higher benefit from the 30% buff compared to Mortal Strike 4.5 seconds later.

In execute range, MS is still prioritized for the same reason. Giving Execute the 30% buff is the reason it is done.

After some review I removed my other post and also looked at my logs from this week which showed uptime of Enrage at 67.9% for all boss fights, as MS crits are required to keep that up, that further puts MS as top priority for rotation.

Would the low uptime of Enrage favor Crit on stat priority (over Mastery)?

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MS adds 30% damage though (Lambs to the Slaughter), so using that buff with Overpower is the point of using MS first. Since it does almost always crit, it will get a higher benefit from the 30% buff compared to Mortal Strike 4.5 seconds later.

In execute range, MS is still prioritized for the same reason. Giving Execute the 30% buff is the reason it is done.

When the Taste for Blood proc won't be wasted (i.e. if it procs shortly after you use MS), there's no reason not to let both MS and Overpower benefit from the +30% Slaughter buff. If the timing of the next available Overpower won't overlap your GCDs, you can get a +30% MS by holding off on Overpower, gain the Slaughter buff again and use it on the TfB proc you were sitting on to get extra MS damage and not lose out on extra Overpower damage either. You will find yourself in situations like this a lot where you can make a choice between holding off on OP for additional damage to hit another MS while sometimes your timing won't work out that way. If it's going to proc again before you can MS again, just use it and keep your normal priority. A wasted proc is a far bigger penalty than the benefit you gain from hitting an extra +30% Mortal Strike. It's something to pay attention though because it is a nice DPS increase when you recognize situations where you can do this and take full advantage of it.

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The new Beta build has MS @ 10% healing but the Weapon dmg his skyrocketed to 185%! Add in the Glyph and we are talking 203.5% WD. Pretty nice. Mortal Strike - Spells - Sigrie

Slam Rage cost has dropped back to 15 as well, will be interesting if this changes the HS>Slam philosophy.

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The new Beta build has MS @ 10% healing but the Weapon dmg his skyrocketed to 185%! Add in the Glyph and we are talking 203.5% WD. Pretty nice. Mortal Strike - Spells - Sigrie

Slam Rage cost has dropped back to 15 as well, will be interesting if this changes the HS>Slam philosophy.

For Fury, changing Bloodsurge so it provides no rage cost as well was their solution for HS being a better button to push than Slam. If that gives any indication about their design intent, this change should reflect the same thing -- that they want HS to be the rage dump and not as big of a part of our damage (with Inner Rage apparently being another rage dump and not much else, but at this point I'm starting to doubt that will be worthwhile at all). They want us using Slam primarily over Heroic Strike but if the numbers say otherwise (damage per rage especially), naturally the Warrior community will learn towards whatever is the better choice. This might bring Slam a little more in line and a better choice vs. pooling rage for your next Heroic Strike, which happens pretty often. A lot of the time where I have a free space, I don't yet have enough rage for HS and have to pool a little. Right now, that yields higher damage but this could change. I look forward to seeing some number-crunching on how efficient Slam will be after that change. Pretty sexy MS damage buff though.

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