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Tahotar

Update from Tigole on 2.1

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Are the complaints about Gruul serious? It seems many of us here on the forums talked about how much of a joke fight it is post-nerf and while we are not representative of most guild, it still is relatively easy. Most of the raiding guilds on my server with a clue have killed him, and we're not talking about world class guilds. I occasionally randomly surf guild progression posts on other realm forums just to see where people are at and I routinely see half a dozen or more guilds killing Gruul on their respective servers. Come on now, let's be realistic here. Any guild that can kill Maulgar will kill Gruul in relatively short order.

Complaints about (MAYBE) Magtheridon and SSC would be more in order here.

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I feel that Magtheridon is the most well-tuned encounter in the game currently, including trash.

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Are the complaints about Gruul serious? It seems many of us here on the forums talked about how much of a joke fight it is post-nerf and while we are not representative of most guild, it still is relatively easy. Most of the raiding guilds on my server with a clue have killed him, and we're not talking about world class guilds. I occasionally randomly surf guild progression posts on other realm forums just to see where people are at and I routinely see half a dozen or more guilds killing Gruul on their respective servers. Come on now, let's be realistic here. Any guild that can kill Maulgar will kill Gruul in relatively short order.

Complaints about (MAYBE) Magtheridon and SSC would be more in order here.

This isnt necessarily true, my own guild thrives on long distance encounters like Nightbane and Maulgar. We can literally last forever and do the fights with 1-3 dps. We're just nowhere near close to the DPS required to kill Gruul. You can't heal around fights with ridiculously silly mechanics like growth. Its like gurg has said time and time again, dps is king. Gone are the days of alternative methods of downing things. So many of the new fights are completely on rails, save borderline exploiting through "creative use of mechnics".

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This isnt necessarily true, my own guild thrives on long distance encounters like Nightbane and Maulgar. We can literally last forever and do the fights with 1-3 dps. We're just nowhere near close to the DPS required to kill Gruul. You can't heal around fights with ridiculously silly mechanics like growth. Its like gurg has said time and time again, dps is king. Gone are the days of alternative methods of downing things. So many of the new fights are completely on rails, save borderline exploiting through "creative use of mechnics".

Isn't this just a roundabout way of admitting to having poor DPS players? Nightbane is really one of the only fights where I feel that DPS is a complete non-issue, and even then that's not 100% accurate as tip-top dps can lock down the summoned skeletons faster and cleaner than a long, drawn-out brawl. We had a recent Nightbane kill with 3(!) priests present and shackling the adds, and I really would have preferred just more DPS.

I dont think it's unreasonable for Blizzard to plan 25-man encounters around the average DPS class contributing ~90% of their pve-specced dps. We all know that some classes have an easier time living up to their potential than others- mage/warlock vs. hunter, for example. Individual hunter attentiveness and "skill" can vary immensely from one player to another, and it has a staggering effect on their effective dps. It's when I see these Gruul meters with mages and hunters doing 200k right next to druids and shadowpriests doing 300-350, that's just a bad player being carried by better players.

I think Magtheridon is one of the better raid bosses designed by Blizzard. I enjoyed learning and executing that fight, much moreso than pre-nerf Gruul.

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This isnt necessarily true, my own guild thrives on long distance encounters like Nightbane and Maulgar. We can literally last forever and do the fights with 1-3 dps. We're just nowhere near close to the DPS required to kill Gruul. You can't heal around fights with ridiculously silly mechanics like growth. Its like gurg has said time and time again, dps is king. Gone are the days of alternative methods of downing things. So many of the new fights are completely on rails, save borderline exploiting through "creative use of mechnics".

Well admittedly you are required to have rounded out balance of relatively skillful individuals. When I say skillful I mean whatever it takes in skill level to kill Gruul, you need your dps to be as skilled as your healers to be as skilled as your tanks. Gone are the days of MC and some BWL where you need tanks (to a degree) and healers with a clue and a bunch of button mashing monkey dps. I don't think that's a bad a thing, having been a healer for a year, I say BMM (button mashing monkeys) can go to hell.

Also have to agree on the enjoyability of Magtheridon. I'm just trying to be careful here because I know I have a really good guild which can make a difficult fight like that seem enjoyable and not too hard. We need to keep in mind his position in raid progression when assessing if his difficulty is appropriate.

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I think some of you are seriously underestimating Gruul. The horde on my server have been killing Maul for weeks but have yet to get a better than 57% Gruul attempt with pots (no flasks other than MT and OT). The idea of doing it completely without buffs is not even worth considering. The alliance only has 4 Gruul kills and they were fully buffed raids. Your average guild will not be killing Gruul without pots in this expansion with the current state of things.

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Without stacking the raid (we actually had a lot of melee, I think 6 or 7 total), we killed Gruul last night in 5 minutes 50 seconds, no bugging out, no bugged shatters, and no one potted. The fight really is a shadow of its former self.

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Without stacking the raid (we actually had a lot of melee, I think 6 or 7 total), we killed Gruul last night in 5 minutes 50 seconds, no bugging out, no bugged shatters, and no one potted. The fight really is a shadow of its former self.

It's an execution fight now, not a ridiculous consumable fight. Think C'thun. Of course good guilds think he's easy and lesser experienced guilds think it's harder. They really did a good job of tuning Gruul.

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I'm not trying to say it isn't possiple. I'm just posting a view from a slower progression server whose top guilds are in the average range. My guild was top of horde progression after dropping Nef, just weeks before KT was killed by Nihilum. We are in the average area for raid guilds and from our PoV Gruul is not possible unbuffed. Most guilds here are struggling on the Curator or Shade. Maulgar is a very challanging encounter with a 1 shot still not yet possible.

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I wonder how people would feel about Gruul if they had toned down the growth damage or his hp only, and left shatter at the same (lethal) levels. That, in my opinion, would be VERY C'thun-esque in tuning, which is probably why they opted for full range of nerfs to the encounter. It's not fair to assume that every guild that wants to try 25-man BC content is going to be able to display that level of coordination.

I think his difficulty is really appropriate now.

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Well admittedly you are required to have rounded out balance of relatively skillful individuals. When I say skillful I mean whatever it takes in skill level to kill Gruul, you need your dps to be as skilled as your healers to be as skilled as your tanks. Gone are the days of MC and some BWL where you need tanks (to a degree) and healers with a clue and a bunch of button mashing monkey dps. I don't think that's a bad a thing, having been a healer for a year, I say BMM (button mashing monkeys) can go to hell.

Basically. From the application info I posted above:

Understand that DPS classes are more important in TBC than they ever have been before. It used to be that if you had a good tank and some good healers to keep that tank alive, all that DPS meant was how long it took for the boss to die. No longer.

That's not really a bad thing. I mean, think back to MC through AQ40, and large parts of Naxx. If you had a terrible tank, you were going to wipe. If your healers sucked, you were going to wipe. If your DPS sucked, you had longer clears.

TBC has just spread responsibility more evenly.

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I wonder how people would feel about Gruul if they had toned down the growth damage or his hp only, and left shatter at the same (lethal) levels. That, in my opinion, would be VERY C'thun-esque in tuning

He feels very C'thun-esque right now. If you get knocked near someone and can't get away before shatter it's pretty close to a eyebeam chain between two people. Probably won't kill you. However, if 3 or more get chained/shattered you still will die in C'thun and in current Gruul.

Differences are that you can't control your distance from each other fully to avoid chaining entirely like you could in C'thun. However, that is balanced with a bit lower shatter damage than chaining damage and the fact that you can hurt multiple people for differing amounts.

Good guilds make C'thun look easy just like good guilds make Gruul look easy. The similarities in personal responsibility are pretty close in the current Gruul implementation. A little less on the interrupt front but everyone still needs to pay attention.

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No one should ever die in the current form of Gruul's shatter. Ever. Even worst case scenarios we're talking are survivable... unless your setup pre-shatter is ass.

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our average guild will not be killing Gruul without pots in this expansion with the current state of things.

Our server had a ~10-man guild + pug kill Gruul a couple weeks ago. I guess it depends on your server.

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Good guilds make C'thun look easy just like good guilds make Gruul look easy. The similarities in personal responsibility are pretty close in the current Gruul implementation. A little less on the interrupt front but everyone still needs to pay attention.

C'thun is still far far cooler than gruul.

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Basically. From the application info I posted above:

That's not really a bad thing. I mean, think back to MC through AQ40, and large parts of Naxx. If you had a terrible tank, you were going to wipe. If your healers sucked, you were going to wipe. If your DPS sucked, you had longer clears.

TBC has just spread responsibility more evenly.

I agree, that it is not a bad thing. Maybe it is b/c of my class, but I love the DPS tests in the raid game. That is why I am not sure of the reason that a lot of people have been speaking about hating Hydross so much. I mean sure he is difficult and his loot is pretty meh (but I do like my ring) but it is pretty exhilerating to me to be able to get him down before the doomsday enrage. People like to say rogues are 2-button monkeys (and lets be honest most are) but some rogues (like Kalman and Pf and others) that really focused on the precise cycles to squeeze out your optimal dps show otherwise, and it is in encounters like Hydross that you want guys like that on your team.

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Natural - I am sure it depends on the server. My server never managed to do anything other than guild only Ony kills. The top guilds laughed at teh idea of anyone there PuG'ing her. We never reached a point were we could reliably kill her with less than 30. So a PuG on Gruul not likely to ever happen here.

Not to mention we were hosting MC runs for people to get gear if that gives you an idea of our server. Where other servers were selling spots in BWL and AQ40, we were doing it with MC.

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C'thun is still far far cooler than gruul.

I entirely agree with coolness factor. However, I think there is a large disconnect between guilds that did all of AQ40 and especially C'thun which showed people how to move around and those who haven't and are just becoming comfortable with those concepts.

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