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2.1: Graveyards, Flight Paths and Trinkets!

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There was obviously a problem with Paladin Healing in relation to Holy/Disc Priests. Is this the correct answer? I dunno, my highest pally alt is 24. But I think Holy/Disc Priests should be the better straight up healer whereas pallies would bring more utility and stuff.

No, there is no reason why Priests should be better healers than paladins. Utility? Our utility is mostly PVP based.

Shadow priests and Vampiric Touch.

That doesn't make any sense. Because Paladin + Shadowpriest together is overpowered, we nerf the paladin so the paladin will be gimp when he does NOT have a shadowpriest in his group? That's just like balancing encounters with a fully flasked raid in mind.

If they really want to fix our synergy with Shadow priests, they should boost SA to 20% but don't make overhealing count.

IF the change happens, it doesn't affect your healing power, just your endurance. It makes other healing spec'd classes relatively more desirable (maybe), and might change the tendency of raids to stack Holy paladins as healers. (which is kinda ironic, considering paladin complaints in WoW 1.0 and various changes made to the class then)

No, it won't affect my endurance or comparable desire for healer classes. Because I'll replace the mana lost from Illumination with SMPs. Nobody else will not notice a difference, just us.

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Well, Felwood definitely needed a southern flight point, and I'm glad to see more direct flight routes (though the relative few of them in TBC speaks to how well they did the flight paths in the first place in the expansion).

New Darkmoon Faire trinkets is a step in the right direction. I received a Two of Beasts from a mob in Hellfire Peninsula and my initial gasp of amazement at getting a blue drop was quickly replaced by the sad realization that this item was probably worthless. So having Cards that produce useful Trinkets will be a good thing.

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That doesn't make any sense. Because Paladin + Shadowpriest together is overpowered, we nerf the paladin so the paladin will be gimp when he does NOT have a shadowpriest in his group? That's just like balancing encounters with a fully flasked raid in mind.

If they really want to fix our synergy with Shadow priests, they should boost SA to 20% but don't make overhealing count.

VT is not the same as VE. (5% of DPS as mana regen vs. 25% of DPS as healing -> 2.5% of DPS as mana return to paladins) Though, thinking on VT a little more... 5% of an S-Priest's DPS. 600 DPS S-Priest -> 30 MPS -> 150 MP5 per person... seems a little high. (Even if we halve that, it rivals the amount of MP5 I get from my gear, and I'm an MP5 freak)

No, it won't affect my endurance or comparable desire for healer classes. Because I'll replace the mana lost from Illumination with SMPs. Nobody else will not notice a difference, just us.

Have you made up your mind whether "we will be gimp without shadow-priests", or "we're the only ones who would notice a difference in our raid performance", if this change goes into effect? Nerfs suck, but I think it's silly how powerful Holy paladins are relative to other healers. Nerf us, buff them, either method has its ramifications. Considering the tree synergy 31+ Holy has, nerfs will properly have a smaller impact.

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Every healer is gimped without a shadow priest for regeneration. ALL The healing classes should be brought up to a regeneration level that we currently have. Chain chugging SMPs is not my idea of fun, SMPs should be for emergencies.

Giving healers more mana regeneration would trivialize very few fights.

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The problem with holy priests isn't necessarily bad healing, but support and utility. They can heal well: between PWS, PoM, and their group heal they certainly can output the hps necessary to warrant their raid spot. For utility they have fort, res, and sometimes spirit. Guess what shadow priests have? Fort, res, sometimes spirit. Oh and great group mana regeneration. Holy priests don't bring enough beyond just healing at the moment. Where shadow get their group health/mana regeneration talents, holy gets lightwell and a targetted group heal - neither of which are very highly desired.

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How about a new graveyard near Coilfang Reservoir?

The pvp graveyard (which alliance possesses 90% of the time) isn't good enough for you?

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The problem with holy priests isn't necessarily bad healing, but support and utility. They can heal well: between PWS, PoM, and their group heal they certainly can output the hps necessary to warrant their raid spot. For utility they have fort, res, and sometimes spirit. Guess what shadow priests have? Fort, res, sometimes spirit. Oh and great group mana regeneration. Holy priests don't bring enough beyond just healing at the moment. Where shadow get their group health/mana regeneration talents, holy gets lightwell and a targetted group heal - neither of which are very highly desired.

I'd like to take a crack at this, as I have a Priest in Tier 3, and now a Paladin in Tier 4.

Holy Paladins have a large repetoire of tools to use on raids. Such as JoLight, JoWisdom, BoWisdom, BoLight, BoMight, BoKings, BoSalv, HoJ for certain trash mobs, taunt for limited situations (as a holy paladin anyways), Cleanse, DS, BoP, Auras (Conc being the best, along with Devo for MT group) and limited burst DPS past 20%. However none of these stack with exception to HoJ/HoWrath and anything beyond 3 paladins in a raid is nearly unnoticed outside of the additional healing which in most situations isn't necessary past 6 or 7 healers at most. Alot of these tools are very specialized, and outside of the gimmick fights not much else is used.

Granted Holy Paladins have alot more tools but most are situational at best, and many serve no real purpose in ideal raid conditions. (I taunt to give our tanks anuerysms. And occasionally to save someone's pixelated life.)

Holy/Disc Priests however stack very well outside of the obvious PW:F/Divine Spirit/Shadow Prot - Mana Burn, Renew, PoH (1 per group plz?), CoH, PoMending, Inspiration procs, Light Wells, Psychic Scream (limited situations), Mind Soothe (limited situations), Dispel (offensive and defensive) and these tools with exception to Mana Burn, Psychic Scream and Mind Soothe are ideal for almost all raid situations you encounter.

I really feel that in overall relative "power" as a Holy Priest I had more utility to offer to a raid in regards to healing - which is why I am there. Sure there are those rare situations where a taunt or BOP saves someone, or for some ungodly reason I need to BoFreedom the tank, but those feel few and far between.

The power gap is greatly increased when you arbitrarily assign a Holy Priest to a single target - as this isn't the Holy Priests strength. Sure they can do the job, and do it damn well, but, a Paladin can and will outperform a Holy Priest on single target healing as that is our niche - whereas a Holy Priest will perform better in all situations outside of single target healing. Basic Raid Healing, Multiple target heals, Full Group heals, etc. Basically shoring up the loose ends of the raid healing wise.

I do however think Priests need a tiny buff, but thats easy stuff - all Blizzard would have to do is change the logic on CoHealing and make it more like Chain Heal in that it heals the 5 people lowest on health in the raid nearest to the target area/person within a given area. Past that, I really feel that healers are almost perfectly balanced now, small Priest buffs withstanding, much better than they ever have been.

The synergy between healing classes is by far the best it ever has been, and now I really do feel it when our Tree Druid doesn't log on, or when our Resto Shaman logs early. In Vanilla WoW I didn't even notice most of the time.

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We'll see what we shall see when the notes go up. I have the feeling we were due for ptr this week (since the skywall bonechewer cluster went to hell on monday) but something came up.

I can't believe you guys are still dealing with that crap :(

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No, there is no reason why Priests should be better healers than paladins. Utility? Our utility is mostly PVP based.

I'm not going to argue with you over the utility provided by a holy priest vs the PvE utility provided by Paladins.

If you don't understand the benefits of Blessings, Judgments, Auras, Cleanse and Divine Intervention in a PvE raid environment...there would be no point discussing it with you.

I am going to say currently, a paladin provides equal healing and more utility to a raid. In fact, a raid benefits having more then one paladin but an entire raid can get by with 1 Holy/Disc Priest and the rest are Shadow. That is all I am going to say about that.

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That Illumination change...hurts, if true.

Most healers that I raid with will jokingly say "nerf paladins", but they generally agree that something needs to be done to improve the healing trees of other classes. This Illumination change totally came out of left field...perhaps from the same designers that are brewing up the latest set of alchemy 'fixes'?

Now what we would end up with is the healer population in raids going up to meet new demands in healing endurance, which lowers overall raid dps, which makes the dps races that seem to be a hallmark of TBC raiding that much harder to win. I suppose the Paladins that gear up in the direction of +healing/mp5 rather than +scrit/+healing won't feel it as much, but for those that have invested countless hours gathering spell crit gear, this is devastating.

Hopefully this change doesn't make it past the conceptual stages, and instead meaningful improvements to other healing classes in terms of raid utility/endurance are applied.

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Holy/Disc Priests however stack very well outside of the obvious PW:F/Divine Spirit/Shadow Prot - Mana Burn, Renew, PoH (1 per group plz?), CoH, PoMending, Inspiration procs, Light Wells, Psychic Scream (limited situations), Mind Soothe (limited situations), Dispel (offensive and defensive) and these tools with exception to Mana Burn, Psychic Scream and Mind Soothe are ideal for almost all raid situations you encounter.

Lightwell? I can't think of a time any of our priests even touched that horrible talent.

Illumination is the only healing talent that scales the mana cost of your spells, based on gear..Its increadible, and it is probably "too strong" for one 5 point talent. That said, if it does go to 50%, I believe paladins will need a regen talent lower in the tree and a small boost in the top of the holy tree, but, really, no one here can say that the talent, with current itemization in mind, isn't just crazy. The power of that talent needs to be spread around the tree, though, and other healers need to be boosted, slightly, all in all, the crux is thought that too much power was contained in just illumination.

As for utility? We have done raids, easily, with one holy/disc priest...Raids with one paladin, are exceptionally harder, though.

Devo aura, BoW, JoW and Salv are all so huge its rediculous, there is no other support class that is going to touch those abilities in their general utility, none..You could strip away every other ability and BoW/Salv+Healing would be enough to bring two paladins :P. This, however, doesn't include the plethora of other things the class can do, its just an awsome utility class, in those terms, I am sorry, a priest has got nothing on it, no healer does, really.

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The possibility that the heaped hunter changes might be real is intriguing.

The pvp graveyard (which alliance possesses 90% of the time) isn't good enough for you?

It would be, if it ever sent me to that graveyard when I died inside a CFR instance. Currently the only times I've been sent there are when I died near the meeting stone.

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The problem with holy priests isn't necessarily bad healing, but support and utility. They can heal well: between PWS, PoM, and their group heal they certainly can output the hps necessary to warrant their raid spot. For utility they have fort, res, and sometimes spirit. Guess what shadow priests have? Fort, res, sometimes spirit. Oh and great group mana regeneration. Holy priests don't bring enough beyond just healing at the moment. Where shadow get their group health/mana regeneration talents, holy gets lightwell and a targetted group heal - neither of which are very highly desired.

A shadow priest with spirit means they don't have VT, doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

As for holy priests, I think we are still perhaps the best raid healer around. That being said, diversity in healers is amazing. For some fights, chain heal is almost a must-have. For other fights, Prayer of Mending, a high HPS output, and PWS are far more useful. And of course, blessings are always wanted as well. I think paladin mana regen and efficiency is vastly overrated. So many fights have enrage timers, whether hard coded or artificial, you only need mana to last that long. Maintaining your mana as a priest just takes slightly more effort and thought than as a paladin. Things like using the click on bangle right after a clearcast procs, then using an inner focus after that for 2 gheals...sitting outside of 5sr for perhaps as long as 30 seconds, getting well over 500mp5 during that time. Who needs mana back on crits? Add in a pot now and then, perhaps an innervate from a feral druid (which actually does more than my mana bar atm), and you're fine. And yea, things like PWS are invaluable. I can't even count how many times I saved someone's life pre-nerf Gruul by PWSing someone who looked too close on a shatter, then seeing them live with <1500 HP (my PWS is 1900ish atm?). It's also very useful in other encounters such as Tidewalker, Hydross, Lurker, Blind. And Prayer of Mending is just as good. Being able to use 2 instant casts to burst pre-emptive heals on someone for 4k every 10 seconds is unique to the priest class currently.

This doesn't even get into the uses for PoH (which is much more situational now with every raid having chain heal, but still very good at times), Circle of Healing (which while limited, actually does have its uses), and the higher HPS output that priests have over paladins. Also, once priests can sit in 2pc t5, mana regen will be even less of an issue.

The only issue I have with holy priests is the fact that we ignore our 11 and 31 pt holy talents entirely. It's not that we're underpowered, it's just that it would be neat if we actually took what I guess most people consider to be the "defining" talents of the tree. Spirit of Redemption is only good for the passive 5% spirit really, but at least it's worth the point. While I could be missing something, I think -most- classes will take most of their 11, 21, 31, 41 pt talents, even if for situational use.

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I'm not going to argue with you over the utility provided by a holy priest vs the PvE utility provided by Paladins.

If you don't understand the benefits of Blessings, Judgments, Auras, Cleanse and Divine Intervention in a PvE raid environment...there would be no point discussing it with you.

Blessings and Auras are our buffs. PWF certainly is superior to Kings for the MT.

Cleanse - Dispell. Oh we can clear both poison and disease, that's about it.

Divine Intervention is wipe protection. It serves no purpose at all in many, many fights.

Judgements are the only decent PVE utility we have that priest lack.

Most of our kickass utility is stricly PVP with extremly rare uses in PVE.

I am going to say currently, a paladin provides equal healing and more utility to a raid. In fact, a raid benefits having more then one paladin but an entire raid can get by with 1 Holy/Disc Priest and the rest are Shadow. That is all I am going to say about that.

A 25 man raid can use 3 paladins, they don't stack that well after that

However, the same raid can also use 4 shadow and 1 holy priest

3 < 5 I think. There's NO room in almost all raids out there for any paladins that aren't holy. Priests actually get to chose. You can't ignore the shadow priest completly when contemplating the balance between Paladins and Priests.

What exactly do you think we will accomplish with nerfing illumination?

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That Illumination change...hurts, if true.

Most healers that I raid with will jokingly say "nerf paladins", but they generally agree that something needs to be done to improve the healing trees of other classes. This Illumination change totally came out of left field...perhaps from the same designers that are brewing up the latest set of alchemy 'fixes'?

Now what we would end up with is the healer population in raids going up to meet new demands in healing endurance, which lowers overall raid dps, which makes the dps races that seem to be a hallmark of TBC raiding that much harder to win. I suppose the Paladins that gear up in the direction of +healing/mp5 rather than +scrit/+healing won't feel it as much, but for those that have invested countless hours gathering spell crit gear, this is devastating.

Hopefully this change doesn't make it past the conceptual stages, and instead meaningful improvements to other healing classes in terms of raid utility/endurance are applied.

Paladins basically can't run out of mana if they play correctly, and they can accomplish this with blues/Kara/t4 gear. All t5 and t6 can offer them right now is lots of +heal for bigger heals, since they don't really need longevity. That's a problem.

Looking at a WWS parse from Morogrim last night...

I was #2 on Effective Healing, with low overhealing. I regained 10.6k mana from 4 Super Mana pots, 5.8k mana from Mana Tide, 5.3k mana from BoW, 1.5k from Mana Spring, and 1.5k from my Warmth of Forgiveness. I had mana oil, mageblood, mp5 food, etc., on me. I was completely OOM and running on fumes for the last 5%.

A paladin with objectively worse gear than me was just behind me at #3 on Healing. He got back 20.3k mana from Illumination alone, not to mention another 4.6k from Spiritual Attunement being healed after Earthquakes/Graves.

I consider that excessive. Even paladins in my guild agree it's not unreasonable. A paladin in a shadow priest group (due to the Attunement synergy) will still have infinite mana anyway. With the proposed Inspiration change, this paladin still would've regained over 10k mana from Illumination, and had to use fewer pots/consumables to equal my mana pool.

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The pvp graveyard (which alliance possesses 90% of the time) isn't good enough for you?

If your spirit spawned there it would be great instead you spawn on the east side of the lake (I assume the horde GY is the west side of the lake). That GY only works for the 5 man instances.

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Gurg please don't forget that we don't regenerate from spirit as we don't have these talents. That's regeneration you don't parse.

We also don't have anything else we can bring to the raid, we are right now the purest of all healer classes.

I agree the shadow priest stuff needs to be fixed, Overhealing should not trigger SA.

And I can definatly run out of mana if I am doing Gruul HS healing with only 1 other healer. If a Paladin is always at 90+ mana, he's not healing enough (expect shadow priest). Or you've brought too many healers.

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Gurg please don't forget that we don't regenerate from spirit as we don't have these talents. That's regeneration you don't parse.

We also don't have anything else we can bring to the raid, we are right now the purest of all healer classes.

I agree the shadow priest stuff needs to be fixed, Overhealing should not trigger SA.

And I can definatly run out of mana if I am doing Gruul HS healing with only 1 other healer. If a Paladin is always at 90+ mana, he's not healing enough (expect shadow priest). Or you've brought too many healers.

I don't regenerate from spirit either. That's why I didn't compare to a priest or druid.

The thing is, paladins would still be superb single-target healing and utility, and the fact is that they stack better than basically any other pure healer. If you have 8 healers, you probably want something like four paladins, a druid, a shaman, and a couple of priests. Four paladins means your whole raid can get every blessing they might want. Multiples of any other healer are only as good as the raw healing they bring to the raid.

As a raid leader, Illumination being 50% would not make me cease bringing 3-4 paladins when possible.

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I've always thought the effectiveness of Paladin direct healing was countered by its complete inflexibility. There aren't a lot of options for a paladin to deal with AE damage for example, but they're awesome at keeping a one target up and that's really about it. A big problem is that once you aren't spamming Flash any more due to HP/sec needs, your large heals will eat your mana bar in very short order even if you downrank since they're more inefficient, and making use of your other talents to mitigate that is a big deal right now. I'm concerned primarily because there are 5 other talents that indirectly feed off of Illumination in the Holy tree, and slashing its effectiveness has a chilling effect on the rest of the tree as well. If you take away a large chunk of the endurance that a paladin has there isn't a lot left in terms of healing that makes them desirable over another healing class, at which point they're relegated to average healers and buff bots or sub-par tanks. I don't think it'll cripple the class to the point of unplayability, but it's really going to hurt.

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We also don't have anything else we can bring to the raid, we are right now the purest of all healer classes.

Anything to bring to a raid as in? If you mean utility, then I have to disagree, you bring the most utility, of any healing class...As said before, just their blessings (Discluding aura and cleanses ect) will see to that.

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Gurg please don't forget that we don't regenerate from spirit as we don't have these talents. That's regeneration you don't parse.

We also don't have anything else we can bring to the raid, we are right now the purest of all healer classes.

I agree the shadow priest stuff needs to be fixed, Overhealing should not trigger SA.

And I can definatly run out of mana if I am doing Gruul HS healing with only 1 other healer. If a Paladin is always at 90+ mana, he's not healing enough (expect shadow priest). Or you've brought too many healers.

Shaman don't get much from spirit either. Priests/druids are the spirit healers. Also, why would you ever want to dedicate 2 healers to something like Gruul HS healing when 1 healer can do it fine? Who cares about mana efficiency/etc/etc if you're using an entire extra raid slot so you can sustain it longer?

I don't regenerate from spirit either. That's why I didn't compare to a priest or druid.

The thing is, paladins would still be superb single-target healing and utility, and the fact is that they stack better than basically any other pure healer. If you have 8 healers, you probably want something like four paladins, a druid, a shaman, and a couple of priests. Four paladins means your whole raid can get every blessing they might want. Multiples of any other healer are only as good as the raw healing they bring to the raid.

As a raid leader, Illumination being 50% would not make me cease bringing 3-4 paladins when possible.

Have to disagree with you here. I would never think of bringing a 4th paladin, I think that's a huge waste of a raid slot. 3 paladins, 2 priests, 2 shaman, 1 druid would be nice, and if I had to take more, it would definitely be priests or shaman, not paladins. Some fights, the 3rd paladin is even overkill, and I'd prefer another type of healer.

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Anything to bring to a raid as in? If you mean utility, then I have to disagree, you bring the most utility, of any healing class...As said before, just their blessings (Discluding aura and cleanses ect) will see to that.

Buffs aren't utility. They're raid-wise power enhancers, yes, but it's no substitute for having a more difficult game-time decision than "big heal" or "little heal". Even with this change, in terms of power a paladin at the very least the equal of any other healer in a raid, but in a 5 man there's really no substitute for a group-ish heal on an AE boss, even if you can only blow it once or it only hits 3 people at a time. That's utility, not a 15 minute buff.

Ironically, raiding erases much of that flexibility by focusing the damage in a single place.

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A big problem is that once you aren't spamming Flash any more due to HP/sec needs, your large heals will eat your mana bar in very short order even if you downrank since they're more inefficient, and making use of your other talents to mitigate that is a big deal right now.

Without factoring in illumination, on a target with BoL, HL is the single most efficient single target heal unless you are comparing it to healing wave with a full stack of healing way and over 2k healing.

With illumination factored in, no heal is even close to approaching it for mana efficiency.

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Continueing with the patch notes, here's another warrior dps nerf! :)

I wonder how long they will keep reducing the coefficients of our dps; as they will always have to. Rage doesnt seem to be 'normalized' at all, it's still a linear function of damage dealt, just a bit flatter. 5% cut from flurry will just make the curvature smaller, but the big picture doesnt change a lot.

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