Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

GravityDK

Blood | DK endgame tanking [4.x]

831 posts in this topic

That really is not a good argument. This is a problem with DK EH and avoidance does not add EH and neither does mastery if you cannot survive the hits inbetween shields, obviously. So your point is pretty much: "DK EH is so low I have to rely on RNG not to die." and I agree. DK EH needs fixing but this has nothing to do with mastery or avoidance stacking either.

Having to rely on avoidance is simply just stupid design. No, avoidance is not worthless but it isn't really much about stacking Blood Shields but giving you time to regen your second pair of FU Runes so you have the resources to put up diseases or double DS. However, you would have to avoid quite a few hits for this scenario to happen and as I said before, you can't force it to happen. You can only hope that it does. Quite different from the active mitigation design of DS.

You would have to rely on AV as much as you have to rely on your runes being up all the time and connecting a DS. DS comes first, but when that fails all you have left is your AV and cooldowns. Again, your CDs can't always be up all the time so in the end you are relying a bit on AV.

As far as this whole hit/exp issue is concerned, I don't really see why it should matter that much because there are a lot of upgrades in FL from T11 that has a lot of hit/exp. I mean I'm not even trying to get any hit/exp and I have 2%/19exp, further upgrades will get me more hit while keeping exp the same.

Avoiding hits might mean you get less of your Mastery, but in the end it leads to a higher overall survivability. I mean you can get pummeled with 10% avoidance (arbitrary #) and while you're getting full use of your mastery, you will die because A) You'll run out of cooldowns and/or B) your healers will oom.

As a side note I completely agree with the "more EH = DS better" line and there's quite a few ways to make it happen but I'm not exactly sure that's Blizzard's train of thought with DKs as was said so many times in blue posts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've had to shift from tanking to DPS since Juggernaut died, but frankly tanking was becoming more frustrating than fulfilling this tier purely due to our class and its deficiencies.

This is the most worrisome part of this whole argument. Countless times Blizzard has stated that when guilds begin refusing to use a certain class/spec they will address the issue, but it's already clearly started. Linistroni in Premo is now DPS, Vyoh in Numen is now DPS, Marza from Jugg/Vigil/Exodus is now DPS (he was one of the main tanks brought up for itemization viewing earlier on in Cata's blood discussions), and I see more and more DKs being forced to swap from main spec blood to main spec frost. It's even at the point where the guild I'm apping to has asked if I was willing to roll a paladin to tank for in the next tier of content just due to the classes deficiencies.

There are a few guilds still actively using DKs, but outside of Blood Legion I haven't seen any 'top tier' guilds utilizing a DK tank for the majority of the fights (in 25m, because 10m damage in take is an absolute joke for every fight sans Majordomo H). Typically speaking DKs have never had a really high representation in top tier guilds, sans some fights (Steelbreaker, Vezax, Sarth) and ICC, and it's being shown quite a bit more here in Cata heroics. Bosses are simply tuned to hit far too hard and we are inefficient at handling this kind of damage.

Even in BL Riggs has a tank of each class and has kept his paladin 100% up to date and utilizing him on Majordomo. I can only assume that he's keeping his paladin relevant when it inevitably boils down to him having to main switch next tier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll chime in and say that I did infact just swap back to DPS after swapping to being our MT last tier. There is absolutely zero point in a world where bosses are being underhealed to meet DPS checks to burden your guild with a Blood DK tank. Our EH and the vision that Blizzard has for us has utterly failed in the Firelands heroics. I would literally get globalled occassionally by Ragnaros (on the pull a few times, mind you) because my Death Strike would get parried and he would hit me for ~100k back to back with Bone Shield up because I had no Blood Shield. This is is simply unacceptable. I've given up giving constructive suggestions on how to fix our class, the ball's in Blizzzard's court now. If they don't fix anything about Blood DKs in 4.2 then no guild in the world that is going for high rankings will even consider using a Blood DK.

I know this is going to come across as whine but it's just simply put the truth. If Blizzard doesn't realise this by now then they're just not paying attention to high end guilds filtering out their Blood DKs over Block Tanks. This is not unfounded whine either, I've tanked everything in WotLK as did I tank everything in t11 (including Nefarian's bone constructs, which is a whole different problem with Blood DKs lacking a Block mechanic) and I tanked everything up to Majordomo. I swapped to my Prot Paladin alt for Domo and then even attempted to tank Ragnaros, but I will hold my guild back no more - I'll just let the block tanks tank him and then maybe even reroll to Prot Paladin after this tier is done.

The problems with DKs that have been discussed are so minor that the real issues at hand just get missed out on. Our passive mitigation is too low after they nerfed our armor on the beta. Bone Shield is an outdated mechanic that is supposed to serve as a Holy Shield/Shield Block but it doesn't even come close. Death Strike being avoided brings us from a suboptimal tank to a horrible one - when your DS gets avoided 2-3 times in a row you're solely relying on your healers to keeping you up which is just pure bad design - I thought Blizzzard's vision was to keep DK's the "active" tank?

I feel Blizzard needs to adress the following: our armor, our Bone Shield mechanic and definitely our Blood Shield mastery. The way that our mastery interacts with Avoidance is pure stupidity. Not to mention how it interacts with itself and other absorb effects. Bone Shield needs to turn into our Mastery and it needs to become our "Block". For Paladins it is already literally a 20-30% damage reduction as it stands. Why would us having that make us overpowered?

Grim times are ahead, that's for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After tanking 11/13 (10-man) heroics last tier I've also switched to Frost. I wasn't feeling overwhelmed per se, but when I went frost and our feral druid went tank, it just solved so many problems:

- More passive tank durability. The active tanking element is sold as the primary means by which a DK tank can stand apart from the rest. I appreciate that, and in a lot of instances enjoyed it. However, the truth is, if you fail to make full use of that active tanking element, it becomes a burden not to you, the tank, but to your healers. It's already enough work for healers to try to 2-heal every other 10-man fight. Guaranteeing that the game is handling our tank's mitigation, not a fallible human player who can be distracted, who can lag, or who can simply get tired after a long night of progression, makes everyone's lives far easier.

- No competition for off-set plate tank drops.

- No problems with hatchling DPS (this was before the death strike change, so I have no idea if the fix actually resolved that issue).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Evidently this tier has been unkind to us - not only the gimmicks of Alysrazor and Majordomo, but also when a tier like this has forced a lot of guilds to drop several healers in favor of meeting DPS requirements. It becomes quite obvious what currently needs to be changed regarding our own surviability.

The complexity of our way of mitigating damage is something that Blizzard seems happy about and determined to stick to, despite the many balancing issues it creates. There is a plethora of factors that need to be taken into consideration from an encounter design POV regarding Death Knight tanks, and in the end a lot of these factors are simply overlooked.

What the block tanks get in favor of their rather simple defensive mechanics is a guarantee that they will always be able to do what's needed. With a Death Knight there's always going to be encounters where we excel or fall far behind simply because of the rather limited length of balancing each tanking spec gets in terms of being "viable" for any given encounter. It's more than evident that what Blizzard considers viable is far from the community's opinion.

A simple example:

Previous tier, healers leaving a tank at 70% before the next swing was a reasonable scenario. In addition, Death Strike was fully utilized this way. Damage intake allowed reactive healing.

This tier, when a tank is at far greater risk of dying in 2-3 hits, reactive healing is less possible. This goes for Death Strike as well, and this is where our system of survivability falters. Active, or reactive mitigation won't fully work under these conditions.

When re-applying your diseases, using Bone Shield or back-to-back Death Strike misses puts you at such a great risk that it currently does, something needs to change. I believe that as long as such a great portion of our survivability comes from a single ability - an ability which a chance of missing, being parried and dodged, and shares resources with other important abilities - we will just see the issues escalate in the coming tiers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Summary

These are simplistic examples, but I think they serve to demonstrate what people are talking about with synergy. Clearly when we're making gear choices, we don't really get the option for "all avoidance" or "all mastery", and the other effects that each has may be more or less desirable for certain fights or play styles, but I hope this shows what is meant when people say Avoidance has a negative synergy with Mastery for Blood tanks.

Thank you. Exactly my point. Obviously both effects work towards the same goal, ie. taking less damage. There seems to be a complete mental block apparent where people can't separate the notion of "As a tank my job is to [take less damage], there are many mechanics that do this, ergo they have synergy" and "Irrespective of what my job is, one mechanic makes the other mechanic less powerful, ergo there is no positive synergy between them. They still are both beneficial to me."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.