Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Rosin

Cataclysm Discipline Priest Compendium

876 posts in this topic

How exactly would those stat weights translate over to ones that you would put in PAWN for quick equipment comparisons in game? I guess I'm just not getting the point of having 2 versions of burst vs sustained?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I would slot the PoH Prime rather than the PWB Prime for the following reason. PWB is going to be used less than PoH, thus your 'bang for buck' will be a lot less. Renew I hardly ever touch, feels a wasted CD to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the above two that the glyph of PWB is not very useful. First, it's only 10% extra healing for 10 seconds, every 2 minutes, only on people in the small area of barrier, and who already have the 30% mitigation from it.

I have been using the glyph of renew (and improved renew talent) in my disc spec since 4.0 hit. My reasoning is that renew crits trigger divine aegis, and that the extra haste from borrowed time will usually add an extra tick to it. This gave me a stronger renew than a holy priest to use on the lich king ledge phases when I didn't want to have weakened soul up on the raid.

In Cata I'll probably switch to the prayer of healing glyph since it's already favored by disc due to the guaranteed divine aegis and it shouldn't cause as much overheal in the cata healing environment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with the above two that the glyph of PWB is not very useful. First, it's only 10% extra healing for 10 seconds, every 2 minutes, only on people in the small area of barrier, and who already have the 30% mitigation from it.

Let's not be hasty with this (and other stuff). The glyph can be very good, but how good depends on raid size, composition and especially the final encounter tuning that nobody knows yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The PW:B Glyph will defiantly be very powerful and very useful on many of the encounters where the raid will be grouped up tightly to mitigate an ability from the boss. Generally during these times the other healers will have their ground effect aoe's all stacked under the raid. Tossing a glyphed barrier down on top of those already stacked ground effect heals will substantially reduce damage incoming while increasing healing being done resulting in more healing being done and less mana being spend cumulatively by the raid's healers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How exactly would those stat weights translate over to ones that you would put in PAWN for quick equipment comparisons in game? I guess I'm just not getting the point of having 2 versions of burst vs sustained?

I also had the question in the holy compendium as well as this one which numbers would be best used for a balanced gear set. Currently I have used the following ratios... Int slight greater than spirit. Mastery twice as valuable as crit and haste/spellpower somewhat better than mastery. I value haste above the other stats since it allows me to spam the cheap heal faster. For discipline I might more closely value mastery and crit but for gear weightings...crit is generally always the lowest even for disc since I will always be reforging out of it for another stat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How exactly would those stat weights translate over to ones that you would put in PAWN for quick equipment comparisons in game? I guess I'm just not getting the point of having 2 versions of burst vs sustained?

The 'Burst' stat weighting is how a stat affects your peak healing per second. This has been our metric for WotLK since max HPS was desirable. Spirit has no effect on this number.

The 'Sustained' stat weighting is most likely what our metric will be for Cataclysm raiding, at least for the early tiers. This is how much healing you can output until you are out of mana. Haste has no effect on this number, except for extra ticks of Renew.

I adjusted the divisors so that the Sustained value would not be hundreds of times larger than the Burst values (and cause confusion), but the two metrics cannot be compared directly to each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice work on the compendium!

There are some points i'd like to discuss.

Atonement/Archangel viability

I would really like to play with the new talents, but I opted out after doing some tests in beta. I found the following issues:

- Atonement Bug: Atonement doesn't heal anybody when the boss has a large hitbox. this bug was reported on August, and remains unsolved.

- Atonement Nerf: It now heals only 50% of the Smite damage, and 25% if it procs on yourself.

- Archangel Nerf: It now restores only 1% of mana per Evangelism stack (up to 5 stacks). Considering that 5 Smites cost 13585, you would need 271700 total mana to get the 5 Smites full refund. So, this is definitely not a mana regen talent.

- Lack of Archangel Synergy: The Archangel healing buff doe not affect absorbs, nor Atonement, which are the biggest focus of the Atonement/Archangel disc build.

- Usually Low Smite/Heal cast frequency: The high damage going on in many fights makes it hard to cast lots of Smites/Heals in a short time. You would either take a long time to get the 5 stacks, or you would have to give up throughput by using Smite when you actually should be using something more suited to the current situation.

By the way, the suggested A/A spec recommends taking Strenght of Soul, but Heal is not going to be frequently used with this spec. I would put those two points in Inpiration. 10% damage reduction is quite significative.

So, after all the nerfs and bug, do you guys really consider the Atonement/Archangel spec viable for raiding? I can only see it fit as a for fun low throughput healing spec, for not getting bored in easy (not high-end) content.

Prime Glyphs

Penance and pw:Shield is must-have for me too.

But for the third slot.. I'd take Renew for healing the tank, and PoH for healing the raid.

In an environment where most of the raid is not topped, which occurs in almost every cataclysm boss, those little HoTs will be quite effective. And considering the new DA 100% proc chance from PoH, we'll cast it a lot.

The Glyph of Power Word: Barrier also has it's value, though I consider it to be situational. Good for when people are on top of each other, preparing the raid for an incomming massive burst damage.

Hymn of Hope

It's now raid-wide. To ensure you will get at least one tick, you will have to be one of the 3 raid members with the lowest mana. Quite hard in a 25man raid. Whether you are going to wait until you are almost depleated before casting, or cast it at any other time, making it a pure altruist spell, is your choice.

So, combining Shadow Fiend with HoH is now tricky, specially because HoH is a channeling spell, and it should only be used in a lul. I'll use them both combined whenever possible, but.. hoping for getting mana depleated in a lul.. I wouldn't count on that.

Theorycrafted Spell Values and Stat Weightings

The disc tree considered is 33/8/0.

By those numbers, I suppose it's an Atonement/Archangel spec. Is it the 35/6/2 linked spec, moving two points from Strength of Soul to Inspiration?

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- Atonement Nerf: It now heals only 50% of the Smite damage, and 25% if it procs on yourself.

While I wish it was nerfed, it's not. The nerf only applies to rank 1 of Atonement. MMO-Champion had that wrong for about half a day. Rank 2 is unchanged, so 100% of Smite damage and 50% on self at 2/2 Atonement.

Also, Blizzard mentioned in the hotfix notes a few days ago that they specifically increased Atonement heal values to match Heal HPS. They really want this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Healing = Average Heal * (1 + Critical% * (0.5 + Divine Aegis * Shield Discipline)

Isn't DA calculated after the whole crit healing? Then it should probably be someting like Healing = Average Heal * [1 + Critical% * (0.5 + 1.5*Divine Aegis * Shield Discipline Mastery)]. With DA being 0.3 most of the time and Shield Discipline Mastery being (1+0.025 * Mastery Points). Or am I wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The 'Burst' stat weighting is how a stat affects your peak healing per second. This has been our metric for WotLK since max HPS was desirable. Spirit has no effect on this number.

The 'Sustained' stat weighting is most likely what our metric will be for Cataclysm raiding, at least for the early tiers. This is how much healing you can output until you are out of mana. Haste has no effect on this number, except for extra ticks of Renew.

I adjusted the divisors so that the Sustained value would not be hundreds of times larger than the Burst values (and cause confusion), but the two metrics cannot be compared directly to each other.

Wouldn't haste allow you to spam a more efficient heal? or are these numbers more tied to a set rotation? In theory a higher haste value would increase throughput at the expense of mana vs. spellpower and crit increase throughput regardless of mana. This would appear to be true even in a sustained healing environment where haste would increase our overall output or the effectiveness of our efficient heals.

Looking at the numbers I am seeing of course a big devaluation of haste as the increased importance of regen and mana efficiency takes over. I am looking over numbers and am wondering if part of the devaluation of haste comes from the reset of our haste plateaus/caps. Does the inability to reach the extra renew ticks or the expense of mana actually devalue the haste in your calculations? or does the math simply support a higher HPM from the other stats at the expense of HPS? Crit/mastery/spellpower of course directly reduce the HPM cost and increase HPS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haste gets more value as we have the ability to get more of it, we simple cannot stack enough of it in the pre-raid/first tier to make your argument valid yet. Depending how future content goes, you may be right. If you check the pre-raid gear, you see that we'll mostly be stacking mastery initially, then filling in haste as we get it. Once items start having mastery+haste/crit on them, then we will start getting into the stuff you are talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I have seen people comment on Atonement not benefiting from A/A or Grace, something I haven't seen anyone mention yet is that it also doesn't seem to be affected by healing reduction debuffs either. From what I have seen the heal is completely based on how much damage is done and so could have situational use on fights that have MS effects like the ones seen in the Bastion of Twilight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Power Word: Shield has a 1 second cooldown when talented and a high mana cost. How am I

supposed to spam this like I used to?

The days of PW:S spam are over. I expect that we will be able to set up and maintain about

3-5 shields at a time.

=

Hasn't been this brought with 4.0.1? Although I admit it feels more sluggish then before, but PW:S having a 1-sec cooldown which is "baked" into the GCD doesn't change the fact it's still an instant, spammable spell.

While PW:S isn't as mana friendly as Heal, raid-bubbling might be viable in some fights (from watching Paragon's videos, Omnitron Defense System comes to my mind) with Inner Will reducing its cost from 19% to 16.15%. The whole reason priests' core spells like Heal, G.Heal etc. were buffed was [as I read from a blue post] that they thought priests weren't using them enough. I think it might be too early dissing situational PW:S spam...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Although I admit it feels more sluggish then before, but PW:S having a 1-sec cooldown which is "baked" into the GCD doesn't change the fact it's still an instant, spammable spell.

It probably feels more sluggish because most disc priests won't get the GCD down to 1s after the talent changes. 1.2s average instead of 1s. is pretty noticeable. Though I have to say I'm not 100% whether there aren't additional factors such as the new antilag feature in the client.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rotation for the 'heal' style build as opposed to AA build needs one important realisation: you must put the penance or GH before the second heal. You otherwise risk not having weakened soul on the target when it lands, thus loosing out on renewed hope crit chance.

Carnathagia, you state in another post to 'balance' haste/crit/mastery (which I agree with), but do you take renewed hope into these calculations or do you see it being a bonus ontop of the 'balanced' crit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haste for efficiency

Not really. When you are talking about a more efficient spell and haste, its generally the difference between Heal and Greater Heal. Greater Heal has 89% of the efficiency of Heal, but it has 2.6x the throughput. You can't begin to attain the amount of Haste you would need to equalize that difference. You will still have to use the correct spell at the correct time.

Renewed Hope

Remember that Renewed Hope also includes the target of your Grace effect, so as long as you maintain Penance and some direct heals in an Atonement rotation, you shouldn't have an issue with losing Renewed Hope.

Stat Balance

Critical rating is showing to be the best non-spirit secondary stat for a Disc healing rotation, despite being devalued by Renewed Hope and Inner Focus. Mastery increases the value of critical rating, and vice versa. Haste rating increases the value of both slightly, but has its own benefit due to Disc's longevity. The assumption to balance these stats considers buffs to critical and haste percentages, but the balancing I referred to is in the individual ratings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There seems to be major discrepancies between the coefficients table and the actual healing values. For a disc profile, Heal should be (3390 + 0.3624 * 6760) * 1.15 * 1.06 = 7118, while it's listed as 12360. While this calculation doesn't include crit, it clearly won't make up for that difference. The healing table also dismisses Renew-5 while having a value for Renew-4, should be the opposite?

Regarding renew, it should tick for 2683 with IT and GoR. With 5 ticks it has 90% of Heal's HPM and the benefit of not moving Grace around. Once enough haste is available to gain 6 ticks with BT, which may be attainable in haste-oriented 372s, it will be extremely efficient.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vuhdo comes with an very usable default setup right out of the box. The configuration

interface is completely redesigned and the appearance of the raid frames can be customized if desired.

VuhDo : Raid Mods : WoWInterface Downloads

Might be useful to note that the author of this mod answers questions and replies to bug posts at PlusHeal.com • View forum - Vuhdo Support.

By the way, the suggested A/A spec recommends taking Strenght of Soul, but Heal is not going to be frequently used with this spec. I would put those two points in Inpiration. 10% damage reduction is quite significant.

I agree, gaining inspiration in lieu of SoS is a huge benefit for an AA disc priest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding haste and sustained throughput, I don't know how you computed it. But imho, the "best" way to do it is not to compute how much healing one can do until you get oom (with heal, that would be nearly infinite in fact), but how much healing one can do in a given time frame (let's say 6 minutes, for example).

If one uses this metric, and given the fact that we can (or at least should) be able to sustain Heal nearly infinitely, then haste shall have a strictly positive (albeit small) value for sustained throughput. This is because although mana is still the main constraint for this metric, time is also a constraint we can't neglect (by contradiction, if time is no constraint, then the best sequence is the spam of the most efficient heal, ie. Heal. As we can sustain it, then mana is no longer a constraint either...). In practice, the best sequence is (at least for a quick intuition) a mixture of Heal and Greater Heal and Renew.

The number of Renew is fixed, such as to keep it on target all time (well, in fact, it might change a little due to haste effect, but that won't change a lot). Then, we can determine the proportion of Heal and Greater heal such as :

1/ To drain the remaining mana in that time frame (ie. increase the number of GH as much as possible)

2/ To keep every GCD occupied (but it is better to spam Heal than being oom after too much spam of GH).

The correct way to see it is :

1/ The mana constraint forces us to use efficient spell;

2/ The GCD / time constraint prevents us from spamming only the most efficient spell.

Now, having more haste means that you have more free GCD, and hence, you can spend the same amount of mana with more spells, using more Heal and less Greater Heal. This new mixture is globally more efficient, and as the amount of available mana is kept identical, haste increases the sustained healing a little bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There seems to be major discrepancies between the coefficients table and the actual healing values. For a disc profile, Heal should be (3390 + 0.3624 * 6760) * 1.15 * 1.06 = 7118, while it's listed as 12360. While this calculation doesn't include crit, it clearly won't make up for that difference. The healing table also dismisses Renew-5 while having a value for Renew-4, should be the opposite?

Regarding renew, it should tick for 2683 with IT and GoR. With 5 ticks it has 90% of Heal's HPM and the benefit of not moving Grace around. Once enough haste is available to gain 6 ticks with BT, which may be attainable in haste-oriented 372s, it will be extremely efficient.

Grace is an additional 24% bonus, while the effect of Critical, with RH and DA is another 26%. However, the Spellpower in that example should be 7482 (8535 raid buffed) from the same gear set with Discipline's 15% increase to Intellect. That gives you the 12360 figure.

The spreadsheet shows glyphed and talented, Renew5 at 5.38 HPM, which is still worse than Heal, Greater Heal, and Binding Heal for single target, but slightly better than Shield. Assuming that an encounter will never require more HPS than Greater Heal spam, it wouldn't make sense to use any of your casting time for a less efficient, lower HPCT spell like Renew as Disc unless you had to move and could spare the mana. And although that will likely happen, it doesn't seem to me to justify the last 2 points in our Disc spec over some of the other attractive options, or for a glyph slot over Barrier or Prayer of Healing. Perhaps after more experience with the raid encounters, that can be determined empirically.

It doesn't seem worth using even for raid healing, since even Holy Nova5 is slightly better, and Prayer of Healing is much better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Permalink from "Surviving Until Dec. 7th" thread.

Hmm I did not realise inner focus is now a 45 second CD. With ~2 sec cast time that means if you use IF and then cast 6 gheals IF there will be 3 seconds left on IF. That is 1 free gheal every 8. With 2.5 sec cast time its 1 free gheal every 7. 12-14% reduction in gheal mana cost.

I'm skeptical that Cataclysm encounters would encourage such heavy use of GH, but I figured I'd reference it in hopes it would get added to the regen section. It is effectively free mana, and I feel the value of the combat regen should be noted. Which I'd post, but I'm not exactly sure how to calculate it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The spreadsheet shows glyphed and talented, Renew5 at 5.38 HPM, which is still worse than Heal, Greater Heal, and Binding Heal for single target, but slightly better than Shield. Assuming that an encounter will never require more HPS than Greater Heal spam, it wouldn't make sense to use any of your casting time for a less efficient, lower HPCT spell like Renew as Disc unless you had to move and could spare the mana. And although that will likely happen, it doesn't seem to me to justify the last 2 points in our Disc spec over some of the other attractive options, or for a glyph slot over Barrier or Prayer of Healing. Perhaps after more experience with the raid encounters, that can be determined empirically.

That may be true for single target situations but for 5 man and 10 man there is a lot of advantages to casting an instant single GCD spell on someone needing non urgent topping off so you can remain focused on your main target (the tank). This preserves both your grace stack and allows you to be addressing multiple targets in an efficient manner. Even for single target situations not everything is patchwerk but there are often short duration bursts of healing needed (5-6 seconds) and using downtime earlier to get renew up can be of significant value to assist you through that burst.

It is dangerous to compare a hot like renew to a direct heal because of these difference in application and the fact that they can combine synergistically. However as mentioned without first hand experiance of the encounters the value of the renew glyph is hard to judge but I can see situations where it will be of value. The good news is that we can now easily change glyphs between fights for negligible cost so we can tailor to the specifics of the situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.