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masanbol

[Elemental] Cataclysm Discussion - Patch 4.3

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Might want to mention for reforging that as hybrids we get the nice ability to reforge to hit even if an item already has hit. If an item has spirit/crit we can reforge to hit and if it has hit/crit we can reforge to spirit. Opens up more options.

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The greater and lesser shoulder enchants cost the same. So as soon as you're exalted with Therazane, there's no reason to ever use the lesser lodestone.

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I'm sure most people have figured this out by now, but I thought it was worth mentioning anyways. If you're freaking out about mana when you first start running 85 dungeons, don't worry too much. Lightning Bolt costs 6% of base mana (which stays constant), while Rolling Thunder procs return 2% of maximum mana (which is based on gear). This means that once 2% of your maximum mana exceeds 6% of base mana you'll start seeing a return on Rolling Thunder procs. You'll still see a net decrease in mana until 2% of your max mana makes up for non-Rolling Thunder procs, Flame Shock, Lava Burst, etc, but it gets a little better at that point.

There are a few other things that affect our mana regen, such as clearcasting or free Lightning Bolts from Elemental Overload proccing Rolling Thunder, but max mana seems to be the biggest factor. After I hit the point where I was getting back more from Rolling Thunder than my Lightning Bolt costs I stopped being perpetually out of mana in instances.

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So, am I to understand Chain Lightning is completely out of our single-target dps rotations? I always thought that its shorter cast time made it slightly better than LB, even despite that its chance to overload is a third of that of LB, and I thought the decrease to its cooldown would make it an even more advantageous tool.

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So, am I to understand Chain Lightning is completely out of our single-target dps rotations? I always thought that its shorter cast time made it slightly better than LB, even despite that its chance to overload is a third of that of LB, and I thought the decrease to its cooldown would make it an even more advantageous tool.

The LB coefficient is higher Chain Lightning's making it better for single target DPS. I find myself leaning toward Chain if there are more than 1 boss/mob side by side for any period of time, because the bounce damage and additional Fulmination charges are outright more damage than just LB on one mob.

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In Wrath we used Chain Lightning on single targets earlier in the tiers because it was just plain better than Lightning Bolt but it scaled worse than Lightning Bolt so by the time we got to T10 (some T9) it was used less (removed completely when the cast time was below 1 sec). It was always used for the 2nd charge of Clearcast after a Lava Burst or when you knew you had to move and couldn't get off a Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst was on cooldown. It also fit in nicely with the Lava Burst cooldown, you didn't have to wait an extra .5 sec for your Lightning Bolt to finish so you could get off your next Lava Burst.

Lava Surge reduces the benefit CL had with fitting in between LvB cooldowns, and with the new queue system it may actually cost you DPS. The reduced cooldown on CL itself would mean more usage which means more mana spent and CL has always been less mana efficient than Lightning Bolt even under Clearcast. Spiritwalker's Grace and Fulmination make for better spells to cast while moving so CL is less useful in those situations.

Right now, CL only has it's place when there are multiple targets, not only because the damage itself outweighs the damage of Lightning Bolt and the mana cost, but also because of increased Rolling Thunder procs of the mana return and the LS charges.

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If you only have 3 or 4 shield charges and you have a fresh glyphed flame shock on a target, is it better to earth shock or do another flame shock in the event you have to move?

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After seeing posts in the Resto thread about following Unleash Life with a casted heal into a queued riptide and getting the bonus healing on the heal, the riptide and the riptide hot I was wondering if Unleash Flame would work the same way with UF -> LvB -> FS granting the damage bonus to the lava burst as well as the FS impact and dot.

Here's a couple short logs from casting at a dummy for a couple minutes.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The first one is just FS and LvB with FT on my MH to get base damage. The Second is UF -> LvB -> FS, nothing else changed.

LvB, FS and FS dot damage are all seeing the same % increase so it looks to be working.

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If you only have 3 or 4 shield charges and you have a fresh glyphed flame shock on a target, is it better to earth shock or do another flame shock in the event you have to move?

If your FS is fresh your shocks will be on cooldown anyway, cast UE. Else i'd say ES. Use the spreadsheet that was posted earlier in this thread.

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What are peoples thoughts on the current meta situation, at first I went with chaotic using int in red, haste in yellow and spirit in blue, but looked up a few of the top dps shamans on world of logs and noticed them using the 54 int and 2% mana one so I gave it a go and re-gemmed everything to +40 int / 20 Int 20 Haste / 20 Int 20 hit and my damage seems a lot better as does my mana conservation.

As far as trinkets go, any with +int seem to be the best, while the hit ones look nice, you can easily reforge any crit items into hit, but you can't reforge into int.

[item]Theralion's Mirror[/item] and [item]Witching Hourglass[/item] look to be a very nice combo for the next two weeks until [item]Darkmoon Card: Volcano[/item]

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What is everyone thoughts towards using the spirit flask? I havent seen flasks mentioned yet, so i was wondering whether you guys thought keeping your gear at 300 rating (380 if your an alchemist) under the hit cap was a good idea? You also get the added benefit of reforging all your extra spirit on gear.

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The choice of FS over Flametongue has to do with making it easier to deal with the shock 9cooldown. If the interaction of those spells isn't a problem for you, you can always use a different glyph.

*** Edited, for authoring while drinking too much eggnog. Thanks Binkenstein! ***

Hard coded timers scale dps in haste brakets, right?

The base timer on FS is 18 seconds, with glyph (+9) it is 27 seconds.

Example (drawing on) Riptide with glyph:

Flameshock duration with glyph: 27 sec

[Table]# of Ticks |Time between ticks needed |Haste needed |Rating needed |Haste needed assuming WoA |Rating needed assuming WoA

9 ticks|N/A|0% Haste|N/A|N/A|N/A

10 ticks|2.7963 sec|7.2846% Haste|239 Rating|2.1758% Haste|72 Rating

11 ticks|2.4677 sec|21.5707% Haste|708 Rating|15.7816% Haste|518 Rating

12 ticks|2.2082 sec|35.8573% Haste|1176 Rating|29.3879% Haste|964 Rating

13 ticks|1.9981 sec|50.1426% Haste|1645 Rating|42.993% Haste|1410 Rating

14 ticks|1.8245 sec|64.4286% Haste|2113 Rating|56.5987% Haste|1856 Rating

15 ticks|1.6787 sec|78.7097% Haste|2581 Rating|70.1997% Haste|2302 Rating[/Table]

Credit: Philondra, Resto Shaman Forums

When considering alternatives to the shock ticks, do we need to consider the break in the haste gap? That is, if we are in the middle of 1410 - 1855 haste rating do we compare the 2% crit to 13 ticks of flame shock?

The unglyphed version would appear similar to:

Flameshock duration: 18 sec

[Table]# of Ticks |Time between ticks needed |Haste needed |Rating needed |Haste needed assuming WoA |Rating needed assuming WoA

6 ticks|N/A|0% haste|N/A|N/A|N/A

7 ticks|2.6608 sec|12.748% Haste|418 Rating|7.3791% Haste|242 Rating

8 ticks|2.1779 sec|37.7474% Haste|1238 Rating|31.188% Haste|1023 Rating

9 ticks|1.8433 sec|62.7516% Haste|2058 Rating|55.0015% Haste|1804 Rating

10 ticks|1.5979 sec|87.7464% Haste|2878 Rating|78.8806% Haste|2587 Rating[/Table]

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This is incorrect because you're missing that UE consumes a GCD on it's own, as does LvB, so if you want to use the logic you just did, you would have to compare UE + LvB to two LB casts, not just one. It doesn't stack up, and it won't unless its single-target damage or damage bonus is increased.

Alternately you could do what we did, which is take only the bonus damage gained by buffing LvB or FS with UE (do not include the base damage of FS or LvB themselves, since that would be present anyways), add it to the single-target damage of Unleash Flame, and compare that to a LB cast. Even factoring things in like DPCT, a LB is better.

There is one time when UE is useful beyond when on the move. If Flameshock is about to need to be refreshed, using UE on both the LvB and FS makes it worth it. Just using my numbers, UE does 3974 damage, LB does 7488 damage. I am going to ignore Lightning overload + Feedback here, assuming the .44 seconds saved (using my haste values without wrath of air 1550 haste rating, 12.1% haste) will equate the damage lost from not being able to proc those two. So the extra damage from FS + LvB needs to be greater than 3514.

My LvB crits for a min of 17.5k. My flameshock does 2073 + 12033 (glyphed) damage, so 31,606 damage total. Increased by 30% nets you 9,481.8 damage.

Obviously it is a small subset of the times when UE is up that it would be useful in a no-moving fight, but to say it isn't worth it ever I believe is incorrect.

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I might not be understanding you, but UE only applies to your next fire spell, so you would only get the bonus on flame shock in your scenario, not both FS and LvB.

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Nidhoggr's post indicates that, much like Unleash Life and Riptide, UE can affect both FS and LvB with a single cast.

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There is one time when UE is useful beyond when on the move. If Flameshock is about to need to be refreshed, using UE on both the LvB and FS makes it worth it. Just using my numbers, UE does 3974 damage, LB does 7488 damage. I am going to ignore Lightning overload + Feedback here, assuming the .44 seconds saved (using my haste values without wrath of air 1550 haste rating, 12.1% haste) will equate the damage lost from not being able to proc those two. So the extra damage from FS + LvB needs to be greater than 3514.

My LvB crits for a min of 17.5k. My flameshock does 2073 + 12033 (glyphed) damage, so 31,606 damage total. Increased by 30% nets you 9,481.8 damage.

Obviously it is a small subset of the times when UE is up that it would be useful in a no-moving fight, but to say it isn't worth it ever I believe is incorrect.

After going over this I think I can safely say that it's still not all that practical to use UE in a "regular rotation" or spell priority, mainly because of the narrow circumstances under which this would actually work and be a DPS increase. Since you have to cast LvB before FS in order for both spells to benefit from Unleash Flame, the FS DoT would have to already be on the target when LvB is cast to guarantee an LvB crit (or the whole exercise is pointless, missing an LvB crit would negate any DPS gain and then some). That suggests that you're clipping FS, which reduces the amount of damage you're going to gain from the boosted spell by an amount equal to the number of ticks you clip.

This means that in order for it to be a DPS increase over an LB, you would need to take the 20% extra damage from LvB and FS, subtract the total damage from the number of ticks you clip when casting FS, and compare that to a single LB, taking into account things like Overloads and Rolling Thunder shield procs. I think it could be a slight DPS increase when used just as FS is ending (i.e. clipping only a single tick of the DoT), but it still wouldn't really fit in our spell priority.

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After going over this I think I can safely say that it's still not all that practical to use UE in a "regular rotation" or spell priority, mainly because of the narrow circumstances under which this would actually work and be a DPS increase. Since you have to cast LvB before FS in order for both spells to benefit from Unleash Flame, the FS DoT would have to already be on the target when LvB is cast to guarantee an LvB crit (or the whole exercise is pointless, missing an LvB crit would negate any DPS gain and then some). That suggests that you're clipping FS, which reduces the amount of damage you're going to gain from the boosted spell by an amount equal to the number of ticks you clip.

This means that in order for it to be a DPS increase over an LB, you would need to take the 20% extra damage from LvB and FS, subtract the total damage from the number of ticks you clip when casting FS, and compare that to a single LB, taking into account things like Overloads and Rolling Thunder shield procs. I think it could be a slight DPS increase when used just as FS is ending (i.e. clipping only a single tick of the DoT), but it still wouldn't really fit in our spell priority.

It's 30%, not 20 if you have Elemental Weapons

I agree completely that it is not consistent enough to be part of a priority system, more of, "After you have the priority system down, if these stars happen to align you can pull out a bit more dps by doing x. If you are still learning the priority system, this could be a dps loss and should be avoided."

Also, in my testing, any time you refresh the Flame Shock debuff (clip it) it adds an extra tick on to the next one. Every time I cast Flame Shock on a blank target it would tick 11 times, if I clipped a previous Flame Shock it would tick 12 times. Now I am not sure of the exact mechanics at work here, if it adds the time between ticks to the new flame shocks duration, or if it adds the time remaining until next tick from the previous FS onto the front end of the next. If it's the latter then you don't lose anything assuming you let the UE FS tick to it's end. (also that extra tick hits for the UE'd amount, so the UE would affect the LvB + FS + 1 tick FS)

So, assuming the latter clipping effect, it would be

.3 LvB + .3 directFS + .3 * 1.09 tickFS + UE damage + (LB Cast time - instant cast time) * avgDPS

vs

(1 + (masteryProc * .75)) * LB + (.6 +(masteryProc * .6))*LScharge

Using my numbers w/ Flametongue weapon, no totems it nets me 450 dmg + (LB Cast time - instant cast time) * avgDPS

Parts to consider further:

1. UE uses up Clearcasting but cannot proc it, so the FS will never get the Clear Casting 10% bonus.

2. How do stats affect the comparison? (I was testing with 6494 spell damage, 14.28% haste, 17.96% crit, 15.1 mastery) Obviously mastery will skew it torwards not using UE, but due to the DPCT of FS I think int would skew it back. Haste/crit not sure.

3. Mastery Procs do not factor in the original damage at all. Not sure if this is documented, but I believe it simply fires off a second spell with a new number from it's damage range and a .75 modifier.

My main concern is how various stats affect this comparison. Say it only generates an extra 4k damage over 27 seconds; if you pull it off correctly now. Once you are in 359+ gear does it generate more of a dps increase?

Other thoughts about UE, say a boss silences, you use UE during the silence, afterwards LvB is available, do you refresh the FS with the UE as well? Only if less then x ticks left on FS? It should at least be mentioned that UE is usable while silenced.

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I don't think I read this on any of the above posts and haven't seen this discussed elsewhere.

On multi-target pulls, is it beneficial to flame shock alternate targets so you have multiple flame shocks up for increased lava surge proc chances? It's certainly fun to get lava surge spam, but the loss of globals makes me wonder if I'm gimping myself or not.

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I don't think I read this on any of the above posts and haven't seen this discussed elsewhere.

On multi-target pulls, is it beneficial to flame shock alternate targets so you have multiple flame shocks up for increased lava surge proc chances? It's certainly fun to get lava surge spam, but the loss of globals makes me wonder if I'm gimping myself or not.

This is a really a question of whether it's more important to have higher individual DPS versus lower single target damage. You are trading GCDs to put damage where it doesn't necessarily need to be instead of focusing on burning the primary target. It's the same situation as phase 1 DPS of warriors/rets/DKs on Heroic Lich King in Wrath if they went with their AOE heavy rotation instead of focusing on their single target. This would artificially inflate their DPS on damage meters but their individual damage on HLK would be much lower than their potential.

From the fights with adds I have seen in cataclysm so far, there hasn’t been a good situation where adding a flame shock DOT to another target is going to help the raid overall. Regardless, the viability of multi-target flame shock has been decreased with the removal of the talent Booming Echoes. Additionally, you may be hurting your DPS through the opportunity cost of using the shock cooldown for an additional flame shock instead of for a fulmination proc.

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I think its worth it to multi-flame shock but only in situations where the DPS on the second target isn't meaningless.

In the current tier some examples where I use it:

Council P1 and P2

Nef P2

Valiona and Theralon

Al'akir P2

Wyrmbreaker

In all of those situations you're flame shock is on something thats actually useful. As far as I know, a full duration flame shock is more damage per global than a lightning bolt. Plus you get the increased lava surge procs.

With FS glyph its not that hard to keep it up on two targets without interfering with fulmination as long as you pay attention to your shock CD and shield charges.

There are some other fights where you could do it but the second target is pretty much meaningless DPS so its not worth doing. Something like Maloriak's adds.

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I can't find Ghostcrawler's post, but with Cataclysm and the DoT changes they made, you won't clip your DoTs anymore. Essentially if you recast a DoT before it runs out, the time you clipped will be added to the end of your new one. Obviously this doesn't work for full duration or even half duration DoTs, but if you have say one tick (maybe 2?) left on your FS it will be added on to the fresh one.

I did some brief testing on the dummies, and it is indeed true that you can cast FS right after a LvB and both will benefit from the UE. The UE buff is not removed from you until a spell lands, so it's entirely possible to cast FS while LvB travels.

How applicable is this? I don't really know, since I'm not sure how often that situation can be set up while turreting, but I just wanted to mention that it is indeed possible.

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Is it going to be worth it to reach the melee hit cap with just hit, and then going to the spell hit cap with spirit? I was under the impression that this would be good for your GFE melee swings, similar to a moonkins treants.

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