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Scorned

[Cataclysm] Protection Warrior

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Guess it depends on how you look at it because if you block you gain rage, with talents. If you avoid all damage expect spells would you have enough rage to be a solid tank with just weapon damage? Think we have always been meant to balance incoming damage and of course while dodge as well as parry are great to avoid damage. We still need to have a strong balance of all three stats I feel.

Honestly do not recall but is the hit table still working that it rolls for: Miss -> Block -> Dodge -> Parry? Overall dodge and parry are also avoidance and block is mitigation it is not really classified as avoidance for most people.

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The idea behind having a very high amount of mastery (and thus block %) is to have full coverage, and guarantee you have a permanent 30% damage reduction, at minimum, vs melee swings (the bulk of all damage nearly all bosses do). The easiest tanks to heal are those that take steady damage, not those that take spiky damage. Even if the spiky damage tank is taking say less than half of the overall damage (compared to a 'steady' tank), it can be more difficult to heal because of the wide variance in swing damage.

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Xav, I talked with my guildmate that works at Blizzard, he confirmed that taunt resist has been removed. Which is by far the best change of the expac. I wonder how much we have to care about threat stats now, beyond maybe soft capping expertise.

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I'm with ComMcNeil on this one.

The time of spike damage has passed and we're not in the risk of dying in two hits anymore. Even a "spiky" tank, who focuses on avoidance, will take at least 5-7 shots before going down and that, to me at least, is already smooth enough. The point then becomes lowering damage taken, which it seems is accomplished through pure avoidance over mastery stack, at least until a certain threshold.

Unfortunately, I lack the knowledge to do my own math or double check these numbers, but according to this post from Tankspot parry+dodge will result in less damage taken until 5400 combined avoidance ratings (mastery included). From there on out it's best to stack mastery.

Also, regarding the threat discussion, assuming these values are correct (I had them saved in my HD from patch 4.0.1, unfortunately can't quote the source):

Concussion Blow - (75/100*AP)*2

Shockwave - (75/100*AP) *2

Heroic Throw - (AP*0.5+12)*1.5

Devastate - [1.5(weapon dmg)+336*(number of sunders on target)]

Our priority becomes:

Shield Slam > Revenge > (Rend - with 30% debuff and/or through BnT) > SW = CB > HT > (Regular Rend) > Devastate

Which probably means Devastate will mostly be used to prevent stacks from dropping.

Note: Shield Slam's formula was changed in 4.0.3 I believe, so I didn't provide it here, but we all agree it's our best threat generating ability.

What really interests me in this discussion is the point for point value of talents like Deep Wounds, Incite and Cruelty have for threat.

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I disagree with you simply due to the fact that there are bosses in 25 player raids, normal difficulty, that can 3 shot a tank - and some bursts upwards of 100-150k damage.

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Regarding lost rage on avoided swings instead of blocked ones, I for one can say, that threat wise, this does absolutely not matter in any way for a single target boss. After about 20 secs into the fight, there is no chance to loose aggro ever again if all goes well...and even then, one should focus more on direct aggro stats than on mastery for extra rage. (Expertise comes to mind as imho the best stat for aggro until softcap)

I would also agree that there must be some kind of threshold, where pure avoid stat ratings are getting weaker than mastery, simply because afaik mastery does not have any diminishing returns in comparison to the avoid stats dodge and parry.

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I'm with ComMcNeil on this one.

The time of spike damage has passed and we're not in the risk of dying in two hits anymore. Even a "spiky" tank, who focuses on avoidance, will take at least 5-7 shots before going down and that, to me at least, is already smooth enough. The point then becomes lowering damage taken, which it seems is accomplished through pure avoidance over mastery stack, at least until a certain threshold.

Simply not true. I know they SAID that would happen, but it just didn't. And I'm sure healers are loving them for it.

Also, as Xav said, even if the tank isn't taking a lot of damage, a tank taking predictable damage allows the healer to heal elsewhere, or even move a healer off the tank. Spikey tank still might take two healers, even if lower damage overall.

I'll admit I haven't done the numbers either, and I don't know how much avoidance 5400 combined is. But the fact that mastery doesn't diminish should make it the clear best investment. Especially since once we max out regular block, we're already halfway to making everything critical block too.

EDIT: no one is saying completely eschew avoidance. In fact, you should specifically look for pieces with avoidance/mastery(especially now that we know taunt can't miss) on them to help fill out the table. I'd be willing to bet that in the course of maxing out mastery to fill the attack table, you incidentally reach that point in avoidance where mastery become better anyway.

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So for the total avoidance number should I be taking my percentage of the following (Dodge * 176.71)+(Parry * 176.71)+(Mastery * 179.3) to get my total avoidance number? When I got near 6400 score I only took mastery my armory showed that was over the base you start with and got roughly 4747, but not sure if that is correct so I am asking to double check my math on the matter.

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I have a few quick questions about Tanking Stats.

What would be our Soft Cap and Hard Caps for Tanking Heroic's and the first set of T11 Dungeons?

Maybe another way to put it what should we be looking to shoot for anyways.

Hit Soft Cap:

Hit Hard Cap:

Expertise Soft Cap:

Expertise Hard Cap:

Block %:

Crit Block %:

For the two Blocks I understand here you pretty much just want the highest number possible though I was courious to see what everyone was looking to shoot for during Heroics and T11 Content (To start out with).

Thank for the replies/help in advance!

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I have a few quick questions about Tanking Stats.

What would be our Soft Cap and Hard Caps for Tanking Heroic's and the first set of T11 Dungeons?

Maybe another way to put it what should we be looking to shoot for anyways.

Hit Soft Cap:

Hit Hard Cap:

Expertise Soft Cap:

Expertise Hard Cap:

Block %:

Crit Block %:

For the two Blocks I understand here you pretty much just want the highest number possible though I was courious to see what everyone was looking to shoot for during Heroics and T11 Content (To start out with).

Thank for the replies/help in advance!

I have 25 expertise and according to the pane it says that against a raid boss I have a .25% chance to be dodged so I believe it's still 26 for the soft cap which would mean that I'm already capped for heroics I believe. As of this time I have almost 43% block however I still have a couple of items below 333(that aren't reforged or enchanted for mastery) so I'm imagining someone with 346 might have 46-47% or even more if you reforge for mastery mostly. For hit, I'd assume it'd be around 6-8%. My warrior has only 1.88% and it says I have a 4.12% chance to miss on 87 mobs so I guess around that. Hope that helps you.

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I wanted to ask a few questions first is it worth reforging for threat stats such as expertise and hit . currently i reforged pretty much all my dodge and a lil bit of my parry to get expertise soft cap and pretty closeto the hit soft cap. the only thing about this is that my avoidance got kinda gimped 9.55% dodge 12.14% parry i havent reforged anything to mastery just yet because i wanted to get my threat stats up so my single target threat gem would just be monster. so my block chance is 41.69% only being 14.16 mastery. heres a link to my armoryCencen @ Frostwolf - World of Warcraft i wanna see if maybe i could get some insight from other sources. and dont judge my spec lol im gonna be using the single target threat deepwounds spec when the servers come up. thanx in advance for your help

Cencen of Origami

US-frostwolf

Don't sign your posts.

Expertise and hit are stats that help you maintain and smooth out your threat. They're really good for some encounters. Right now though in heroics, I'd make sure you focus on mitigation and survival as people continue getting geared. The longer you can survive/less damage you take can mitigate a lack of gear elsewhere somewhat. Same for raiding. Go in with a mindset of "I want to survive for as long as possible".

Edit: Also, has anyone noticed a rare item that's farmable for tanking? Wowhead lists a gun called Thundercall, but it looks like it's not enabled. There's also a BOE gun in raids, but it's a little disappointing that there's no ranged weapon to purchase via JP or such.

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In regard to the Mastery/Parry/Dodge discussion. I think we can all agree that Dodge is the clear loser, since it doesn't really benefit from talents like Parry does. That being said, if we focus solely on maxing avoidance/mitigation, there will be a clear (but unknown as far as I know) balance between parry and dodge where the DR of a higher stacked parry stat will negate the crit block bonus from Hold The Line.

Comparing Mastery directly with Parry is a bit more interesting. I haven't been able to test this yet because of a lack of higher parry gear, but I think that all things being equal, an ideal stat distribution might involve softcapping Parry to get a high uptime of Hold the Line, and then reforging the surplus parry into mastery. It seems to me that the synergy of a near permanent 10% crit/crit-block with high mastery rating might be incredibly significant both for our TPS and mitigation.

I'll try to look into what kind of stats would require this uptime, or if parry chance + hold the line is just point for point not as good as mastery. If it is its clearly a moot point, but I think it will be an interesting dynamic for us as the gear gets better to have these 2 stats both contributing to critical block %.

I personally have reforged to mastery and expertise for the smoothing of burst and threat. That's one thing that I really like about mastery, not sure if it's been mentioned. Unlike dodge and parry, it will still build vengeance for you. It's very nice to be mitigating a large chunk of damage while still building your tps and dps.

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I've been playing with Impending Victory a bit. The concession is that threat talents are lackluster with the current implementation of vengeance, and that the last 20% of a boss can often be the roughest.

On a slow hitting boss like Atramedes, Blood Craze ends up being pretty useless... we know that.

But look at VR spam sub 20%:

ezfuzd.png

Self heals are not game-breaking, i only did 9.8% of the healing on myself over the course of the fight.

But VR was 51.2% of that healing.

Assuming that the last 20% of the boss lasted 20% of the fight. (Sounds redundant - it's not)

~5% of all incoming heals sub 20% are from non VR self-heals.

Now VR covering 51.2% of my heals is 5% of my total incoming heals over the course of the fight.

But, VR is 25.01% of all healing to me sub 20%

Which means when a boss is under 20% potentially 30% of all incoming heals are self heals.

Has anyone else been mucking around with this? When the other options are threat talents, can we justify not taking IV?

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

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I've been playing with Impending Victory a bit. The concession is that threat talents are lackluster with the current implementation of vengeance, and that the last 20% of a boss can often be the roughest.

On a slow hitting boss like Atramedes, Blood Craze ends up being pretty useless... we know that.

But look at VR spam sub 20%:

ezfuzd.png

Self heals are not game-breaking, i only did 9.8% of the healing on myself over the course of the fight.

But VR was 51.2% of that healing.

Assuming that the last 20% of the boss lasted 20% of the fight. (Sounds redundant - it's not)

~5% of all incoming heals sub 20% are from non VR self-heals.

Now VR covering 51.2% of my heals is 5% of my total incoming heals over the course of the fight.

But, VR is 25.01% of all healing to me sub 20%

Which means when a boss is under 20% potentially 30% of all incoming heals are self heals.

Has anyone else been mucking around with this? When the other options are threat talents, can we justify not taking IV?

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Very interesting stats regarding VR. I've found on numerous fights w/ adds that due to BnT and increase TC dmg I've had VR pop and I've used it to successfully keep myself alive.

Last night actually, on the first boss (rock worm) in Hero Stonecore, our healer went down while the boss was about 20%, so I used SW then LS/ER to heal myself once I was low to survive till next burrow phase. Once the burrow phase began I was actually able to self heal up to 75% via the trogs which spawn by using VR. Once the boss came back up I continued to heal from the additional adds and the extra time allowed for the DPS to finish him off.

The impressive thing about VR is that I did this and I'm not even specc'd for it. I can only imagine how awesome it is to use during that last 20% and/or this same type of situation. Considering that healers are learning to heal all over again while we're all gearing up I have to say it's very tempting to at least try out.

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Very interesting stats regarding VR. I've found on numerous fights w/ adds that due to BnT and increase TC dmg I've had VR pop and I've used it to successfully keep myself alive.

Last night actually, on the first boss (rock worm) in Hero Stonecore, our healer went down while the boss was about 20%, so I used SW then LS/ER to heal myself once I was low to survive till next burrow phase. Once the burrow phase began I was actually able to self heal up to 75% via the trogs which spawn by using VR. Once the boss came back up I continued to heal from the additional adds and the extra time allowed for the DPS to finish him off.

The impressive thing about VR is that I did this and I'm not even specc'd for it. I can only imagine how awesome it is to use during that last 20% and/or this same type of situation. Considering that healers are learning to heal all over again while we're all gearing up I have to say it's very tempting to at least try out.

The only real use I see for Impending Victory after testing a bit myself in raids/dungeons is only WHEN the healer goes down, which in a raid shouldn't be happening. So from my point of view, the talent is almost useless as I barely Devastate a target unless it's to refresh sunders. With an overflow of rage on raid bosses, Heroic Strike/Shield Slam/Revenge are my top priorities damage wise, + Rend ticks more than Devastate and by refreshing Rend with Thunderclap once every 15 seconds (with Blood and Thunder), means I can Shockwave for 10% more, which is higher than Devastate damage. (This is testing with 3 sunders. And for the purposes of my test, I wasn't testing threat values, purely damage on the Raiding Test Dummy. But again, Devastate is proving to be lower threat-wise than most of the above.)

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The only real use I see for Impending Victory after testing a bit myself in raids/dungeons is only WHEN the healer goes down, which in a raid shouldn't be happening. So from my point of view, the talent is almost useless as I barely Devastate a target unless it's to refresh sunders. With an overflow of rage on raid bosses, Heroic Strike/Shield Slam/Revenge are my top priorities damage wise, + Rend ticks more than Devastate and by refreshing Rend with Thunderclap once every 15 seconds (with Blood and Thunder), means I can Shockwave for 10% more, which is higher than Devastate damage. (This is testing with 3 sunders. And for the purposes of my test, I wasn't testing threat values, purely damage on the Raiding Test Dummy. But again, Devastate is proving to be lower threat-wise than most of the above.)

My concern is that the argument you are giving is for threat, which is not an issue - I don't think anyone is contesting that point.

I have serious doubts that we will be sitting at full health on HM progression - even with all the healers alive. These bosses hit hard. Keep in mind that the impending victory buff lasts 20 seconds (maybe 25 with minor glyph?) So you devastate twice, and sit on the buff until you can get an effective heal out of it. Even in a fight where you don't cast the spell because you are not at risk - you would have gained ~3% damage output with those talents in a threat slot. With three points in War Academy - my average victory rush is hitting harder than my average revenge. I'm not convinced the threat trade off is as large as it is being presented, and if you are forced into a devastate/VR spam fest because of needed heals, who cares if you have a threat drop off?

I know the leading post in this thread says a 5% heal. But glyphed and spec'd these are hitting for 9.54%. These are not little heals. (included a couple SM's for a sense of relation)

vpw7zb.png

I just don't think from an end-game progression perspective that you can ignore this for the sake of marginal threat gains.

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The only real use I see for Impending Victory after testing a bit myself in raids/dungeons is only WHEN the healer goes down, which in a raid shouldn't be happening.

Well, to be honest, did you already raid? Because right now there are some/many fights where especially at the 20% mark group damage goes up and healers tend to burn their mana quickly, so you should try to help them out a little bit.

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Don't sign your posts.

Expertise and hit are stats that help you maintain and smooth out your threat. They're really good for some encounters. Right now though in heroics, I'd make sure you focus on mitigation and survival as people continue getting geared. The longer you can survive/less damage you take can mitigate a lack of gear elsewhere somewhat. Same for raiding. Go in with a mindset of "I want to survive for as long as possible".

Edit: Also, has anyone noticed a rare item that's farmable for tanking? Wowhead lists a gun called Thundercall, but it looks like it's not enabled. There's also a BOE gun in raids, but it's a little disappointing that there's no ranged weapon to purchase via JP or such.

Judging by Thundercall's portrait it appears as though it may drop from Vortex Pinnacle although I have yet to actually see it. Its possible if it drops from trash that wowhead wouldn't know.

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Regarding Thundercall, I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist and Wowhead has wrong data. The "best" pre-raid tanking weapon would then be this one: Abatement Cannon. However, even if not tinkered specifically for us, Volatile Thunderstick might be a better option, as it has more stamina, mastery and you can just reforge away the critical strike rating.

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My concern is that the argument you are giving is for threat, which is not an issue - I don't think anyone is contesting that point.

I have serious doubts that we will be sitting at full health on HM progression - even with all the healers alive. These bosses hit hard. Keep in mind that the impending victory buff lasts 20 seconds (maybe 25 with minor glyph?) So you devastate twice, and sit on the buff until you can get an effective heal out of it. Even in a fight where you don't cast the spell because you are not at risk - you would have gained ~3% damage output with those talents in a threat slot. With three points in War Academy - my average victory rush is hitting harder than my average revenge. I'm not convinced the threat trade off is as large as it is being presented, and if you are forced into a devastate/VR spam fest because of needed heals, who cares if you have a threat drop off?

I know the leading post in this thread says a 5% heal. But glyphed and spec'd these are hitting for 9.54%. These are not little heals. (included a couple SM's for a sense of relation)

vpw7zb.png

I just don't think from an end-game progression perspective that you can ignore this for the sake of marginal threat gains.

This is my point exactly... to sit on it when needed. I was trying it out last night and ultimately my approach was to have something to help the healers late in fights when mana is low and at a major premium. On more than a few occasions I was able to return +50k heals on myself with VR. W/ it glyphed and extended it really may have it's use in raids. Threat wise, at the end of the fight threat is a non-issue so I'm not necessarily worried about the rotation at that point. In most situations that late in a fight my goal is just survival... multiple VR heals replaces HP which definitely helps get the job done.

All of this may be moot in the future with upgraded gear and stronger healers however right now it's an interesting spec. Although a bit foreign to warriors I'm going to keep working it and also see how it plays out in my raids this weekend.

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Pinnick / Booi,

I have also been considering speccing into improved VR, if nothing else for the sheer fact that I would hope to prevent a tank death in the last stages of a fight while healers are still gearing up, reinforced by the fact that this will all be exacerbated when we move into hard modes.

I've currently tanked Omni / Magmaw / Halfus / Valiona and Theralion, and I can recall the last 20% being to the point where healers are going oom (especially on Halfus) and it would have helped greatly. However, I do think a better implementation would be if they put the ability on a long cooldown or made it a not-so-often proc, where we can put a spot heal on ourselves throughout the duration of the fight when needed.

What's more, is I would hope that threat will never factor in to our decision to use these self heals or not like it will for paladins down the road as DPS scales, since by the end of the fight I would presume if we've been doing our abilities correctly, we should be well ahead.

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From my limited experience in only 2 nights of cataclysm raiding, one thing I did notice was how large a portion of total raid damage tanks can contribute, especially in the 10 man bracket. I still support maxxing survivability over all as tank, but a 3% damage loss over the duration of the fight is a lot more significant than a 3% threat loss. Its possible that the extra damage ending the fight a few seconds sooner makes up for any extra mana the healers had to spend during the 20% range.

On another note, is it normal to be maintaining more than 50% up time on Inner Rage without sacrificing heroic strike?

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Regarding Thundercall, I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist and Wowhead has wrong data. The "best" pre-raid tanking weapon would then be this one: Abatement Cannon. However, even if not tinkered specifically for us, Volatile Thunderstick might be a better option, as it has more stamina, mastery and you can just reforge away the critical strike rating.

Technically not a pre-raid item, but Crossfire Carbine is quite easy to get. It drops from Bastion of Twilight trash (even in 10 man normal mode, ignore the heroic tag) which can be farmed with ease by a team of people in mostly 5 man hc gear.

Regarding Impending Victory, I feel like raid tanks should spec for it. Even if it's a poor talent, it's still something that increases our survivability.

In a 5 minute fight, in practice you tend to get about a minute window of Impending Victory. That's 13 uses or so on average, which is 117% of your health in healing. I'm using a 9% heal here. If it's actually 9.54% then the total amount healed becomes 124%.

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Well, to be honest, did you already raid? Because right now there are some/many fights where especially at the 20% mark group damage goes up and healers tend to burn their mana quickly, so you should try to help them out a little bit.

Yes, I raided in the first week of Cata. Not to the extent of people like Xav, but I'm still finding it's usefulness limited not only by the fact that it's not a 100% chance on Devastating a target below 20% (and therefore may never even proc, even if that chance is extremely low) but also because I prefer most of my other talents over it. When/if I get to a fight where keeping the offtank (thats me!) alive is a real concern and the 5-10%% health every 2 GCD's (if it were to be THAT good, which I doubt it is, but then again, it could proc every single Devastate) is needed, then I may spend the points for it. But in the 3 BoT, 5 BWD and 1 TotFW bosses I've attempted, I can't see the 5-10% being a massive difference. But it's mainly because I can't guarantee it'll proc.

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