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malthrin

Paladin Simple Questions: Cataclysmic Mode

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This is the thread for simple questions that don't fit anywhere else. If your question applies to one of the existing thread topics, please post it there instead; if you expect to generate significant additional discussion, create a new thread. If, however, you have a simple question that only requires a simple answer and don't see a better place to post it, this is your thread.

Note that all forum rules still apply. Before posting, you should still Search (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t43256-how_use_search/) to verify that the answer isn't already available. Asking people to make specific gear or spec decisions for you is still against the rules. Finally, keep in mind that proper capitalization, punctuation, and spelling are even more important in short posts than long ones.

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The Prot thread recommends reforging dodge/parry into mastery. But then it recommends the stamina/parry gem over the stamina/mastery gem. Am I missing something?

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The Prot thread recommends reforging dodge/parry into mastery. But then it recommends the stamina/parry gem over the stamina/mastery gem. Am I missing something?

The gems listed are gems that tanking Paladins should be looking for; there is not a specific gem recommendation. The order in which they are listed is entirely arbitrary. The gem you choose depends on your gear and if/how much you are able to reforge.

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Is Protector of the Innocent proccing a beacon heal intended? It seems a bit imbalanced to be able to double dip like this.

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I checked all of the forums and didn't see anything on this topic, so please forgive me if this has all ready been answered. What should Holy Paladins look to reforge with their stats, if at all?

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I checked all of the forums and didn't see anything on this topic, so please forgive me if this has all ready been answered. What should Holy Paladins look to reforge with their stats, if at all?

There was a lot of theory behind people reforging crit/mastery into haste. If you want a more in-depth look at the theorycraft behind this theory and others visit: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t102488-way_light_holy_cataclysm/

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I was looking for info on the Holy Paladin (Healing) Haste cap. I found the post regarding the numbers but they don't seem too add up and they also don't account for changes in Cataclysm, for example they are saying a 15% Haste increase for judging when mine says 9%.

So far I have worked out that 1% Haste is equal to 128.21 Rating / 1 Rating = 0.0078%

Holy Light is also now a 3 second cast rather than a 2.5second cast. With talents takes it to a 2.5% cast.

After removing all my gear it was still saying 2.43s cast which I found to be related to the Speed of Light talent which increased Haste by 3% but doesn't show on the Summaries to the right.

What I don't know is what the cap is now to get this down to an acceptable limit to get FoL to 1sec cast?

Edit: After doing some dodgy maths I think I have it to 1409 (rounded) for haste cap at 100ms Latency to get Maximum Flash of Lights.

Note: These values are rounded as I'm not as smart as some.

1sec = 1.5 / (1.00*1.227*1.11)

= 1.1 Cast time.

The 1.227 Comes from 3% Speed of Light 9% Judgement 5% Boomkin 5% Wrath of Air and 0.7% from Basalisk Liver Dog buff food which gives 90 Haste rating.

Could someone smarter check this?

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The 1.227 Comes from 3% Speed of Light 9% Judgement 5% Boomkin 5% Wrath of Air and 0.7% from Basalisk Liver Dog buff food which gives 90 Haste rating.

Haste effects combine multiplicatively, and all sources of rating add together to form one of those haste effects. Boomkin and WoA are the same buff - they don't stack. The haste threshold for 1 second Flashes is then at h = 1.5/1.03/1.09/1.05 - 1 = 27.244% from haste rating. From Combat Ratings at Level 85, the haste conversion is 128.0571, so you would need 27.244 * 128.0571 ~= 3489 rating to hit that cap. 3399 with buff food ;)

Given how the new spell queuing system works, latency should not impede your ability to cast even GCD-limited spells.

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Is Censure's tick rate still affected by haste, and if so, has this been acknowledged as being intentional?

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If you're using Glyph of Seal of Truth to hit expertise cap (+10 expertise with seal up), is it still worth it to use Seal of Righteousness for the cleave effect in AoE, or will dodges from lack of expertise negate the extra damage cleave does?

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What factors are involved in the delay between using an ability that generates holy power and the holy power actually becoming available? Is it just lag, or is there a set delay?

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Is Protector of the Innocent proccing a beacon heal intended? It seems a bit imbalanced to be able to double dip like this.

According to a blue post today, yes.

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motofirebox: Supposedly, since the spells that cause the delay in the HP gain are not baked in with the gain, there is a slight delay when the server must check the existence of the presence of the various talents and buffs which allow the HP gain.

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Hi fellow paladins. As a tank, I read the protection thread daily, although I dont think I understand our protection cap fully. I did read everything in the rist post and tried to figure out what is what, but I have some question still waiting to be answered. I hope this is the right thread to ask them, as in the protection topic it would be off (that topic is for higher level discussion of tanking).

Our 102.4% avoidance cap comes from 4 different parts. Base miss + parry chance + dodge chance + block chance. I understand it. So...

1. Is it (theoretically) okay to get 51.2% parry + 51.2% dodge to be avoidance capped? Or any other stat? Or 102.4% block or parry chance to be capped?

2. Why is masterity more important, then parry or dodge? I understand that there is a thing called parry haste, but dodge is zero dmg dont it? Since block is just 30% dmg reduction (or 40%) why we like msatery over dodge or parry?

3. Some mentioned "block cap" in the topic. Is there a cap of block? Which means there is a separated cap just for masterity rating therefore block chance %?

So as you get the picture i'm a bit confused about what item to choose according to my personal stats, the itemstats and how this avoidance cap really works and makes us a better tank? THank you for the answers.

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1. Is it (theoretically) okay to get 51.2% parry + 51.2% dodge to be avoidance capped? Or any other stat? Or 102.4% block or parry chance to be capped?

2. Why is masterity more important, then parry or dodge? I understand that there is a thing called parry haste, but dodge is zero dmg dont it? Since block is just 30% dmg reduction (or 40%) why we like msatery over dodge or parry?

3. Some mentioned "block cap" in the topic. Is there a cap of block? Which means there is a separated cap just for masterity rating therefore block chance %?

1.) Yes, but that's much harder to do than to also use Mastery due to diminishing returns on Dodge and Parry and due to how stat budget works.

2.) Mastery doesn't suffer from diminishing returns and it also gives decent amounts of block per point.

3.) Block cap is what you've already talked about (miss+dodge+parry+block == 102.4%). Once you reach block cap, it makes sense to start swapping out Mastery for pure avoidance (dodge/parry) since, as you pointed out, taking 0% damage is better than taking 60% damage.

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1.) Yes, but that's much harder to do than to also use Mastery due to diminishing returns on Dodge and Parry and due to how stat budget works.

2.) Mastery doesn't suffer from diminishing returns and it also gives decent amounts of block per point.

3.) Block cap is what you've already talked about (miss+dodge+parry+block == 102.4%). Once you reach block cap, it makes sense to start swapping out Mastery for pure avoidance (dodge/parry) since, as you pointed out, taking 0% damage is better than taking 60% damage.

1. Okay, so I got the core part of the avoidance thingy right.

2. What exactly diminishing return means for parry and block? I know that diminishing return is when for e.g. 100 crit rating is more crit% on lvl10 then at lvl85. How this applies to dodge and parry?

3. Oh, the name confused me. I thought "block" is only related to mastery. So "block" in block cap means blocking dmg in a way what consists dodge, parry and block.

Thank your for your fast and clear answers.

(Reaching then 102.4% seems kinda impossible yet.)

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Our 102.4% avoidance cap comes from 4 different parts. Base miss + parry chance + dodge chance + block chance. I understand it. So...

1. Is it (theoretically) okay to get 51.2% parry + 51.2% dodge to be avoidance capped? Or any other stat? Or 102.4% block or parry chance to be capped?

2. Why is masterity more important, then parry or dodge? I understand that there is a thing called parry haste, but dodge is zero dmg dont it? Since block is just 30% dmg reduction (or 40%) why we like msatery over dodge or parry?

3. Some mentioned "block cap" in the topic. Is there a cap of block? Which means there is a separated cap just for masterity rating therefore block chance %?

1. Technically possible, but don't forget the base miss chance is 5%, so more like 48.7% parry + 48.7% dodge. This would be the technical ideal.

2. Mastery is more important because block gets you closer to the 102.4%. First off, parry haste doesn't exist anymore, so parry and dodge are for all intents and purposes the same (which means the one that has more points in it is farther into DR so it should be reforged away). Mastery is more important because, although at lower levels of dodge and parry where they will reduce incoming damage MORE than mastery, blocking happens more, making the incoming damage less "spiky". So you have a more consistent incoming damage, allowing healers to use more mana efficient heals to keep you alive.

3. "Block cap" is referring to the fact that, when you reach 102.4% total avoidance, getting more block is useless, as it is the first thing to drop off the table. At that point, you want ot reforge away mastery into dodge and parry, while maintaining 102.4%.

I hope this clears it up a bit

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Okay just wondering. Everyone says intellect is the most important stat, understood!

Then haste is also super important as we have to use tons of holy lights.

But should u reforge all your mastery/crit into Haste? Just some of your crit/mastery. Or is it best to just keep it as it is, or will it depend on weather u are running 5 man hcs or raiding 10/25man?

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You should pretty much always reforge Crit or Mastery into something better like Spirit or Haste. Personally, for heroics I would probably recommend Spirit, but both are good. Spirit is almost 3 times better then crit for both output and longevity, and almost twice as good as mastery. Haste is superior to spirit for output, but with a non-trivial cost to mana.

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Prot Meta gem: The one with 5% block value. Does it puts us at 45% or 41% with holy shield up? (has it been tested vs 2% increase armor?)

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Getting back to delukz' question

1) If you were to actually get gear to a point where you would have 102.4 pure avoidance, then you'd be a tank your healers love and your dps hates.

It's important that tanks are getting actual hits because a significant portion of their threat comes from this. The AP increase through Vengeance and abilities proccing on receiving hits are necessary for threat management. (warriors and druids get extra rage).

So even if you could get to a state of pure avoidance it's probably one you would want to avoid (pun!) and instead find a suitable balance between avoidance and mitigation.

In reality, diminishing returns are going to make being entirely avoidable impossible.

2) sixcore seemed to have missed the point on this one...

Mastery gives you a flat chance to block. X mastery is Y chance to block.

Both parry and dodge however are on a diminishing curve. So your first X parry rating will give you Y chance to parry. If you already have a chunk of parry, then adding X parry rating won't give you Y chance to parry, it'll give less than Y chance to parry.

As you get more parry%, you need increasingly larger amounts of parry rating to add another percent of parry. The same is true for dodge.

That also explains the motivation for the reforge. If your dodge% is higher than your parry% and you're not block capped, then reforging X dodge rating into mastery will (due to the Diminishing returns) will be the better choice. The amount of dodge rating you're removing will reduce your avoidance (parry+dodge) by less than it would if you took away the same amount of rating in parry.

3) There is no hard cap on block. It's similar to Hit or Expertise. It is 'capped' because at some point getting more doesn't have any effect at all.

Being over the cap in anything can sometimes be a good thing if a certain mob mechanic reduces your abilities.

A mob doing a stat reduction could change things, as you loose Str (parry) and agi (dodge).

There have also been mobs with a higher-than-normal chance to hit.

I'm not sure if either of the above occurs in Cata instances/raids.

In any case it has in the past sometimes been beneficial to be slightly over cap, I'm unsure if such cases exist in Cataclysm content.

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Prot Meta gem: The one with 5% block value. Does it puts us at 45% or 41% with holy shield up? (has it been tested vs 2% increase armor?)

Right now, it will put you at 41% just like the old 1% BV metas. This appears to be a bug.

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How does effective HP calculates now? I keep seeing higher ilvl paladins with lesser hp then mine, but with a bigger block %. I gemmed stamina till this point, but I'm not sure weather change them to masterity or sta/masterity gems. I'll defintely change some at least for socket bonuses what gives mastery, but still would be nice to know what is superior due to EHP values.

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How does effective HP calculates now? I keep seeing higher ilvl paladins with lesser hp then mine, but with a bigger block %. I gemmed stamina till this point, but I'm not sure weather change them to masterity or sta/masterity gems. I'll defintely change some at least for socket bonuses what gives mastery, but still would be nice to know what is superior due to EHP values.

What is your total avoidance at now? People are stacking avoidance over stam because it makes you easier to heal. More avoidance makes your HP less spiky. In Wrath HP stacking was super useful to help against getting 1-2 shot by a boss. Where with Cata mechanics you don't get 1-2 shot you get 10 shot. So smoothing out that incoming damage allows healers to predict your HP changes much better. I've gemmed multicolor gems to get bonuses. The itemization on socket bonuses are much better in Cata. I use Stm/Mst and Stm/Pry gems to meet socket bonuses, even for blue sockets. These kind of choices will likely change in the future as better gear comes along.

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