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emptyrepublic

Cataclysm Tanking/Protection Field Manual :: Updated Feb 9, 2011 (4.0.6)

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This discussion is rather pointless, since block cap is out of reach for the time being.

I keep seeing people talking about block cap as if it were some hypothetical thing in late cataclysm or something. Just to make this clear, block cap is possible in 359 gear.

So, which is it? Clicking through to Tharia's profile indicates he's packing about 95% block+avoid pre buffs. That makes me think 102.4% isn't impossible to reach.

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So, which is it? Clicking through to Tharia's profile indicates he's packing about 95% block+avoid pre buffs. That makes me think 102.4% isn't impossible to reach.

If you look closer at Tharia's setup, you will notice that he has practically no hit or expertise. Obviously, this is working for him, and in a situation when you completely dump those stats, you'll find it much easier to bring mastery up to levels close to block cap.

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If you dump literally everything else, and gem/enchant/reforge with no other goal than to maximize Mastery, plus use food elixirs, other buffs purely to maximize Mastery, then it is JUST reachable in ilevel 372 purples. In ilevel 385 purples it will be reachable with fewer contortions.

Also, Theck and I worked out the correct weighting for Armor (well, really, Theck worked it out and I occasionally said "Huh, what?") and I've updated the weighting.

Now that this is worked out, I'm going to re-do the math for pre-raid gear to see how much the weightings shift for a different gear level. After that, I'll put out a list of values for trinkets, but I've got family in town now so I'm not 100% sure when I'll be able to get to it..

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So I re-did the weightings with pre-raid gear (basically my gear except I swapped the Engy helm for the JP since) and didn't hit Mastery quite as hard as Zarko. Also, on Dodge/Mastery pieces I reforged Dodge into Parry so they weren't quite as far apart.

The results were interesting. First, Mastery drops to 0.0010094, so even if everything else stayed the same their weightings would go up because their yardstick for comparison went down.

Weights

Mastery 1.00

Parry 1.01

Dodge 0.87

Armor 0.55

AGIL 0.50

A couple notes. First, I fixed the problem with the armor and I feel good about the 0.55 number. Second, I figured out why Parry and Dodge are so far apart and its not entirely because my gearset (even after reforging) is somewhat Dodge heavy (1127 vs 888). Its the AGIL.

Dodge DR is driven by both the dodge% you get from Dodge as well as the dodge% you get from AGIL, right? So while most tanking gear doesn't have very much AGIL, you get a good bit from buffs like Strength of Earth (549 AGIL and STR) then throw in some AGIL pieces (weapon + relic + Tia's Grace) and I'm looking at over 1100 AGIL contributing to dodge%, making the DR bite incrementally harder into incremental dodge. Not sure exactly what to do about this.

Also, while I haven't exactly been avoiding Parry (I've got a Parry cogwheel in my engy helm, so I'm not quite this low in game), it looks like the breakeven point between Parry and Mastery is somewhere in the low 900s for Avoidance, and failing to get over that hurdle is easier than I had thought.

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Got windwalk today and did some testing with the MonkeySpeed addon.

WW: 115%

WW & Boot Enchant: 124%

WW & PoJ: 132%

Edit: As a side note if anyone wants logs to test uptime or something let me know. I can upload to WoL or use any addon.

If you can upload the logs to WoL, I'll take a look at them just to double-check the proc trigger testing we did on beta. On beta, it was 1 PPM off of melee attacks only (no spell or censure triggers).

The uptime we've modeled is between 30% and 40% depending on hit and expertise, which works out to around 0.8%-1% avoidance.

So I re-did the weightings with pre-raid gear (basically my gear except I swapped the Engy helm for the JP since) and didn't hit Mastery quite as hard as Zarko. Also, on Dodge/Mastery pieces I reforged Dodge into Parry so they weren't quite as far apart.

Can you post the relevant stats of the item set (block%, parry%, dodge%) with the results? That way I can check them against the analytical model.

For instance, your parry valuation seems high, especially for a gear set where we haven't reforged heavily for mastery. In theory, the only factor governing the valuation of mastery vs. avoidance is your post-DR avoidance contribution (equation 14 in the derivation, all the way at the end). For any gear set with more than about 10.2% parry, mastery should come out ahead of avoidance.

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If you dump literally everything else, and gem/enchant/reforge with no other goal than to maximize Mastery, plus use food elixirs, other buffs purely to maximize Mastery, then it is JUST reachable in ilevel 372 purples. In ilevel 385 purples it will be reachable with fewer contortions.

This is the profile I'm basing my conclusions on.

chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

Only thing missing is raidbuffs and elixir/food, so 315 mastery rating and about 590 agi and 700 str.

I'm pretty sure chardev doesn't calculate avoidance correctly (at least it doesn't count agility as dodge, there seem to be other bugs), so I took the ratings I got out of the profile and added them into my spreadsheet (it's self made, so possibly wrong, but it does mirror correctly the ingame char sheet, so I'm quite confident in its accuracy) and got 103.6% combined avoidance, even if not counting the stacked trinket.

Again, disclaimer, right now this is only theoretical. I can't say if this is viable for hardmodes or not, especially because you are missing out on the 4t11 bonus, which might prove very useful. I don't think block cap is possible in 359 gear if you want the set bonus. A big stamina loss is also inevitable.

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Theck,

Yeah, sorry, meant to post that but been busy.

The totals incl enchants and buffs is 1127 dodge and 1184 AGIL (trinket), 888 Parry and 2606 Mastery. Ugh. Had a cell pointing to the wrong place which screwed up my Mastery number. I have to redo my values.

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If you can upload the logs to WoL, I'll take a look at them just to double-check the proc trigger testing we did on beta. On beta, it was 1 PPM off of melee attacks only (no spell or censure triggers).

The uptime we've modeled is between 30% and 40% depending on hit and expertise, which works out to around 0.8%-1% avoidance.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Player name is Jkdc. This is Cho'gall so there are a few times that I'm attacking from behind or not attacking at all but hopefully it helps. 523 Hit, 25 Expertise

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Also, while I haven't exactly been avoiding Parry (I've got a Parry cogwheel in my engy helm, so I'm not quite this low in game), it looks like the breakeven point between Parry and Mastery is somewhere in the low 900s for Avoidance, and failing to get over that hurdle is easier than I had thought.

The crossover point is exactly 952 rating for either type of avoidance in the absence of agility. Agility will reduce the crossover point by roughly 0.58*(post_kings_paperdoll_Agi-Base_Agi), or 0.61*(pre_kings_agi) for an individual item. So the 549 agi from Strength of Earth reduces the crossover point by ~335, and if you really had a total of 1100 agi from SoE+Items, the threshold would drop down to 282.

In any event, the gear details explain why your parry valuation was so high. I'll try and double-check the rest of the numbers later, but they all look reasonable given the gear set you chose.

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World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Player name is Jkdc. This is Cho'gall so there are a few times that I'm attacking from behind or not attacking at all but hopefully it helps. 523 Hit, 25 Expertise

23% uptime according to WoL, which is probably reasonable. It's hard to estimate a value without knowing exactly how much face time you had with the boss and how much you deviated from a 939 (which is what the 30-40% uptimes are calculated for).

However, the proc rate seems right. You had 16 procs out of 376 triggers (melee-type attacks), which is 4.26%. A 1 PPM enchant on a 2.6-speed weapon should give 4.33%. So, pretty good agreement for a limited data set.

Checking line-by-line, every proc accompanies a known proc trigger, so it seems like it's unchanged from beta.

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Hmm, just realized I'm missing a STR component for pushing Parry further into DR. Incoporating that should reduce the value of Parry, unless STR doesn't contribute to DR. I believe it does but I'm not 100% sure. If anyone knows for sure, let me know.

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I have 2 pieces of gear that have the same amount of STR and no parry. With both unequipped I was at 10.15% parry, with one equipped it went up to 10.33%, with both it went up to 10.52%. Don't know if that helps or not.

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World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Some more data with WW...

Valiona, Chimaeron, and Atramedes are probably the best to look at for stats, minus phase switches and a few WoGs here and there I was nearly 939 for all of those. 525 Hit and 25 Expertise again.

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Hmm, just realized I'm missing a STR component for pushing Parry further into DR. Incoporating that should reduce the value of Parry, unless STR doesn't contribute to DR. I believe it does but I'm not 100% sure. If anyone knows for sure, let me know.

Strength contributes parry rating directly. In other words, your character sheet parry rating includes the contribution from Strength. It's affected by DR exactly the same way parry rating is, because it is parry rating.

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Wrathblood:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AimAPrLO1QRLdFZqTWoxYzhOSHlyU3J0WDdPN2pxYlE&authkey=CKjVnI4F&hl=en&pli=1#gid=1

Also, the maintankadin thread for it: Maintankadin -; View topic - Theorycrafting Item Scores

I put together a spreadsheet doing a similar calculation, for my current heroic gearing levels. It does all the calculations and DR to try to calculate weightings for the various stats. The avoidance comparison numbers should be pretty solid, while the threat numbers are linked in kind of an arbitrary fashion.

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I do not understand why all prot paladins at the moment go with glyphed SoT and the other threat increasing glyphs.

I am maintanking with glyphed Seal Of Insight + glyphed WoG, I am not having threat issues with 2% hit and 2 expertise points and healers rarely have to heal me when I'm using my cooldowns smartly. My own WoG is capable of critting as an 45k absorb shield, and Im popping it every ~10 seconds, or twice in a row iwth Eternal Glory.

Can someone clear it up to me, why everyone is going with the old SoT setup?

Last night our 3 healers had rougly 30m healing done each, and I self-healed myself for 17m, where Seal Of Insight came 2nd.

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Can someone clear it up to me, why everyone is going with the old SoT setup?

Last night our 3 healers had rougly 30m healing done each, and I self-healed myself for 17m, where Seal Of Insight came 2nd.

Because 10 full Expertise points for a single glyph is extremely valuable threat-wise and equates to 1792.80 Expertise rating.

On a side note, if you have 3 healers and you had to self heal over 17m, I'm troubled by their abilities and by the amounts of overheal that occurred. Beyond that, with only 2% hit, little expertise and lack of Seal of Truth, I am also worried about the amount of damage your DPS is capable of without causing threat issues. Without a WoL or equivalent to analyze I'm purely speculating but your account over events sounds a bit far fetched.

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Because 10 full Expertise points for a single glyph is extremely valuable threat-wise and equates to 1792.80 Expertise rating.

On a side note, if you have 3 healers and you had to self heal over 17m, I'm troubled by their abilities and by the amounts of overheal that occurred. Beyond that, with only 2% hit, little expertise and lack of Seal of Truth, I am also worried about the amount of damage your DPS is capable of without causing threat issues. Without a WoL or equivalent to analyze I'm purely speculating but your account over events sounds a bit far fetched.

Threat is NEVER a problem beyond the first few seconds of the fight. One Tott or MD is enough to cover your ass while you wait for vengeance and it's really easy to maintain threat from there on. You don't need hit, you don't need expertise. (It does help, but often not as much as saving healer's mana or time, depending on the situation obviously)

Healing yourself is very viable and the mana this saves is huge.

Btw, looking at your profile, it seems to me you haven't done any raiding in cata yet, so I wouldn't talk too much about capabilities of healers. Some of these fights are quite intense, even on normal mode, at least in mostly 346 gear. hardmodes will be even more so.

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Threat is NEVER a problem beyond the first few seconds of the fight. One Tott or MD is enough to cover your ass while you wait for vengeance and it's really easy to maintain threat from there on. You don't need hit, you don't need expertise. (It does help, but often not as much as saving healer's mana or time, depending on the situation obviously)

Healing yourself is very viable and the mana this saves is huge.

Btw, looking at your profile, it seems to me you haven't done any raiding in cata yet, so I wouldn't talk too much about capabilities of healers. Some of these fights are quite intense, even on normal mode, at least in mostly 346 gear. hardmodes will be even more so.

speaking of looking at profiles, I felt compelled to question something in your spec. You're glyphed Seal of Insight, so logically one would assume that you're using seal of insight, yet you're talented into Seals of the Pure, which has absolutely 0 effect while SoI is active. I would have assumed that since you're also glyphed for WoG, you'd have points into Eternal Glory to make the most benefit of it.

Not bashing you or anything. I just look at a lot of the profiles of the more involved raiders to get an idea of what others are doing, and I noticed it. I figured it was simply an oversight on your part and thought to mention it to you.

On another note. About Glyph of Seal of Insight: It just seems to me that a rather meager 5% gain in healing doesn't quite match up to the massive increase in Expertise from Glyph of SoT.

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On glyphs: You use Seal of Insight for the healing it does. So naturally you also want to glyph it, because other glyph choices aren't really valuable. So you don't compare glyphs, you compare seal+glyph for their combined effect.

On my personal choices, I realize my spec doesn't match my glyphs, I was trying around a bit during raid yesterday and didn't want to delay the raid by respecing ;) reglyphing on the other hand is fast. That's all. Eternal Glory is a great talent if you try to max self heal obviously.

Btw, I'm not saying healing yourself is the way to glory. While healing is tight on new bosses, so is dps. I'm still trying out a lot. Right now, I'm just saying it is viable.

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I agree, 2 bosses in Blackwing Descent is not really a progress and I'm probably not good enough to be on this forum anyway. My healers are not bad, I went to maximum self-healing setup to let my healers focus on the raid, not the other way around. I have solo tanked Magmaw with the 50% armor debuff from 90% of boss' health, to the kill. I don't know if Magmaw with 1tank is actually the proper tactic, but despite the nasty debuff, healers focused on the raid and easily kept it topped up throughout the fight and finished with 30% or more mana each at the end. Threat wasn't an issue on Omnitron Defense either. I really suggest people to try it out, I just had 47k WoG critical heal in 5-man.

PS

Our dps is not so good to over-aggro me, but good enough to squeeze inside the enrage timer.

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Can someone clear it up to me, why everyone is going with the old SoT setup?

The two glyphs (SoT and SoI) are mutually exclusive; you can't get the benefit of both at the same time. So you pick the one that you feel helps you more, either by making the majority of situations easier, or by making the hardest situations easier, or some other metric.

Many of the bosses have healing-intensive phases where you're in danger of dying. If that's your biggest concern, SoI is certainly a valid way to glyph.

Many of the bosses have dps-intensive burn phases, where you're not as in danger of dying as you are in danger of missing an enrage mechanic. SoT is very valuable there, because with a high stack of Vengeance we pull pretty reasonable DPS.

So far, we've had more trouble with the burn phases than the healing-intensive phases. So I've stuck with SoT for now. Also note that those of us who were killing 3+ bosses in the first week of the expansion may have been doing so with severely undergeared DPS, making extra damage output more valuable. That will become less important as DPS players gear up more and can hit enrage timers all by themselves. :P

On a more general note, the itemization difference in the two glyphs is ridiculous. SoT is a huge chunk of expertise, where SoI is only a small amount of increased healing. We already have a lot of tools for helping out during the healing phases; simply changing seals to SoI gives you 95% of the survivability of the unglyphed version, and you're probably already sinking Holy Power into WoG during those periods. So I think that the cost-benefit ratio of the two is something to consider as well.

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On a more general note, the itemization difference in the two glyphs is ridiculous. SoT is a huge chunk of expertise, where SoI is only a small amount of increased healing. We already have a lot of tools for helping out during the healing phases; simply changing seals to SoI gives you 95% of the survivability of the unglyphed version, and you're probably already sinking Holy Power into WoG during those periods. So I think that the cost-benefit ratio of the two is something to consider as well.

Exactly. I make heavy use of WoG and have it talented/glyphed, but the massive stat boost from the SoT glyph is too good to pass on if you ever use SoT at all. That said, it's easy to swap glyphs on a fight-by-fight basis - best practice will probably be to decide in advance which Seal you're using on a given boss, and glyph appropriately.

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Exactly. I make heavy use of WoG and have it talented/glyphed, but the massive stat boost from the SoT glyph is too good to pass on if you ever use SoT at all. That said, it's easy to swap glyphs on a fight-by-fight basis - best practice will probably be to decide in advance which Seal you're using on a given boss, and glyph appropriately.

Thanks for your point. I will probably try glyphed SoT now and keep spamming WoG. Seems like best balance between threat and selfheal.

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