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Hinalover

[Feral-Bear] Cataclysm Release

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Well I'll post this since it seems to be the correct thread to post this in. Using the current internal build of Rawr 4 (changeset 55801), I came up with two different lists for Pre-Heroic Dungeon list as well as A pre-Raid list for Bear tanks. Both used the Night Elf Race with NO profession perks and no extra buffs. I wanted to get a list that did not favor one profession over another. Also since Dungeon comps and raid comps differ so much I did not want to favor one buff over the other. If people wish for it, I can add buffs or professions and reevaluate.

There is currently a major bug that Jothay and I are trying to figure out in which Relics seem to not want to be shown in the range slot even though all the coding indicates that it should. This does affect the results a little bit but not by much. I will post the list without the relic, and I can update this list once this bug is worked out.

Also when comparing races for bear tanks, Night elves have the lead for their mitigation followed by Tauren, Worgen, and Trolls trailing.

Pre-Heroic Dungeon list - Evaluated against level 87 mobs hitting for 80,000 unmittigated damage per hit (20,000 mitigated)

[TABLE]Slot | Name | Gems | Enchant | Reforge

Head |[iTEM]66936[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52294[/iTEM] [iTEM]52233[/iTEM] | [iTEM]62366[/iTEM] | 68 Haste -> Dodge

Neck | [iTEM]52321[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52233[/iTEM] | | 51 Haste -> Dodge

Shoulders | [iTEM]66905[/iTEM] | | [iTEM]62333[/iTEM] | 46 Haste -> Dodge

Back | [iTEM]62383[/iTEM] | | Enchant Cloak - Protection

Chest | [iTEM]56562[/iTEM] | | Enchant Chest - Greater Stamina | 73 Hit -> Dodge

Wrist | [iTEM]55886[/iTEM] | | [iTEM]44947[/iTEM] | 40 Haste -> Dodge

Hands | [iTEM]62433[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52233[/iTEM] | [iTEM]34207[/iTEM] | 67 Haste -> Dodge

Waist | [iTEM]56537[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] | | 73 Hit -> Dodge

Legs | [iTEM]62425[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] | [iTEM]56551[/iTEM] | 59 Haste -> Dodge

Feet | [iTEM]55871[/iTEM] | | | 53 Haste -> Dodge

Ring 1 | [iTEM]52348[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] | | 45 Mastery -> Dodge

Ring 2 | [iTEM]52348[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] | | 45 Mastery -> Dodge

Trinket 1 | [iTEM]55816[/iTEM]

Trinket 2 | [iTEM]55795[/iTEM] | | | 86 Hit -> Dodge

Weapon | [iTEM]55066[/iTEM] | | [iTEM]68134[/iTEM] | 80 Haste -> Dodge

Relic |

[/TABLE]

Pre-T11 Raid list - Evaluated against level 88 mobs hitting for 100,000 unmitigated damage (25,000 mitigated damage)

[TABLE]Slot | Name | Gems | Enchant | Reforge

Head |[iTEM]56344[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52294[/iTEM] [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] | [iTEM]62366[/iTEM] | 72 Hit -> Dodge

Neck | [iTEM]52321[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] | | 51 Haste -> Dodge

Shoulders | [iTEM]58134[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] | [iTEM]62333[/iTEM] | 52 Hit -> Dodge

Back | [iTEM]62383[/iTEM] | | Enchant Cloak - Protection

Chest | [iTEM]56562[/iTEM] | | Enchant Chest - Greater Stamina | 101 Crit -> Dodge

Wrist | [iTEM]63454[/iTEM] | | [iTEM]44947[/iTEM] | 44 Mastery -> Expertise

Hands | [iTEM]62433[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52233[/iTEM] | [iTEM]34207[/iTEM] | 67 Haste -> Dodge

Waist | [iTEM]56537[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] | | 73 Hit -> Dodge

Legs | [iTEM]58132[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] | [iTEM]56551[/iTEM] | 80 Mastery -> Dodge

Feet | [iTEM]63435[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52233[/iTEM] | | 60 Haste -> Dodge

Ring 1 | [iTEM]52348[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] | | 45 Mastery -> Dodge

Ring 2 | [iTEM]52348[/iTEM] | [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] | | 45 Mastery -> Dodge

Trinket 1 | [iTEM]56347[/iTEM]

Trinket 2 | [iTEM]56328[/iTEM] | | | 114 Hit -> Dodge

Weapon | [iTEM]55066[/iTEM] | | [iTEM]68134[/iTEM] | 80 Mastery -> Dodge

Relic |

[/TABLE]

Both list insists on being Parry Soft cap.

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Ok, I just updated the list and I adjusted a few minor things

a) I turned off Parry haste and adjusted the base swing speed of the boss to 2.5 so that Infected wounds is able to bring down that number to usual 2 seconds. As far as I know of, none of the first tier bosses parry haste. I can change that value if we do find out that one or more of the bosses parry haste.

b) I double checked all items that are crafted or given by way of reputation, that and I was a moron in thinking [iTEM]56551[/iTEM] was a Leatherworking only item.

@Rojans: You are correct for the most part. The back, chest, and waist are BiS for Pre-heroic and Pre-Raid items. The ring on the other hand is beaten out by [iTEM]52348[/iTEM] for two reasons. One, it is not Unique-equip so that you can equip two of them. Secondly, it has a socket that you can place a [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] in it. When comparing the two, [iTEM]52348[/iTEM] with a [iTEM]52242[/iTEM] gem in it and 45 Mastery -> Dodge reforge comes in at 22176 rating, while [iTEM]62362[/iTEM] with a 50 Haste -> Dodge comes in at 22057.34 rating. This means that if you only get one [iTEM]52348[/iTEM], you can use your second slot for [iTEM]62362[/iTEM]

@fr0d0b0ls0n: Sure. Both favor Dodge fairly high if you do not factor in Parry haste. If you do factor in Parry haste, Expertise is valued higher than Dodge until Parry haste soft cap, when it drops in value.

Pre-Heroic Dungeon

[TABLE]Stat | Rating

Stamina | 50.69

Armor | 35.77

Agility | 28.51

Dodge Rating | 21.69

Bonus Armor | 10.9

Mastery Rating | 9.49

Strength | 7.76

Expertise Rating | 6.35

Crit Rating | 6.33

Attack Power | 3.88

Hit Rating | 3.19

Health | 2.13

Haste Rating | 0.94

[/TABLE]

Pre-Tier 11 Raid

[TABLE]Stat | Rating

Stamina | 47.13

Armor | 35.54

Agility | 22.41

Dodge Rating | 19.55

Bonus Armor | 9.92

Mastery Rating | 7.41

Crit Rating | 6.35

Strength | 4.8

Expertise Rating | 4.77

Health | 3.19

Attack Power | 2.4

Hit Rating | 2.13

Haste Rating | 0.66

[/TABLE]

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Was the honor buy-able [iTEM]64728[/iTEM] and Tol Barrad [iTEM]64986[/iTEM] gear considered in your setups? I know the resilience is a loss, but based on your stat weights they are competitive if not apparently BIS for some slots due to their higher item level.

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Is it a good idea to use a macro to put Thrash and Swipe on the same button? It'll cast either Swipe/Thrash depending on what order you put them in.

The one I'm tentatively about to use is

#showtooltip

/castsequence Thrash(Bear Form), Swipe(Bear Form)

So the first time I click it, it'll use Thrash. The second time, swipe. The way I see it, it'd just make AoE tanking a lot simpler by condensing your two moves into one button. The rotation would just be that macro twice, another move (e.g. Lacerate, Mangle), and then the macro twice again, and so on.

I'm just wondering if anyone sees any sort of drawback to that, or if it would be acceptable (and perhaps easier) to use.

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I did the same thing, Talanik. Since they are both on a six second cooldown, it's easy enough to just have them on the same button in a cast sequence. My only change was that I eventually moved swipe first in the order, just because it costs significantly less rage - I wanted the cheaper ability first for those snap threat, low-rage moments where I just want to get everything's attention long enough to get the rage up for the Thrash, Maul, etc.

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I'm preparing for tanking in Cataclysm and I'm brushing up on the new AOE rotations.

(linking to image until I figure out how to properly format a table)

aoerotationsx.th.png

Berserk refreshing the cooldown of mangle has no real impact here, due to prioritizing AOE abilities vs single target ones. At this time, the extra mangles could only be fitted in the place of one lacerate, and that will cause some issues with pulverize uptime (if pulverizing).

What I'm keen to know is, from experience, during the normal instances, which of the above rotation is closer to actual rage-sustainable rotation (if any) ?

Edited for not to confuse other druids. Thank you Talanik, it somehow escaped my mind that maul is NOT on the GCD

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@Timberton, Maul is not on the GCD and can be used independently of Swipe and Thrash. You simply use maul whenever you have excess rage. About 50-60 is when I hit Maul.

What I've been doing for AoE threat seems to be the best I can come up with. If I'm not chain pulling and can afford to switch out of bear form, I'll pop thorns and then pull. If I'm unable to, then oh well. Either way, I start with Swipe/Thrash, then a couple tab target Mangle/Lacerates during the GCD, rinse and repeat. Don't forget to put up Demo roar sometime after the pull either. I've found it a lot more useful in the heroics nowadays when you need every bit of damage mitigation possible.

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Also when comparing races for bear tanks, Night elves have the lead for their mitigation followed by Tauren, Worgen, and Trolls trailing.

Could you expand on this? Specifically so Worgen against Night elf? Its a given that Dodge is more valuable then crit, but to what extent does this apply? How much of a survival loss is 1% dodge versus the SD procs of 1% crit? Crit is one of the highest ranked stats for Feral DPS and I commonly fill the OT role where I will spend significant time in cat form. Additionally Shadow meld has no virtually no raid practically, while Darkflight has limited usefulness is more practical.

Is it a good idea to use a macro to put Thrash and Swipe on the same button? It'll cast either Swipe/Thrash depending on what order you put them in.

The one I'm tentatively about to use is

#showtooltip

/castsequence Thrash(Bear Form), Swipe(Bear Form)

So the first time I click it, it'll use Thrash. The second time, swipe. The way I see it, it'd just make AoE tanking a lot simpler by condensing your two moves into one button. The rotation would just be that macro twice, another move (e.g. Lacerate, Mangle), and then the macro twice again, and so on.

I'm just wondering if anyone sees any sort of drawback to that, or if it would be acceptable (and perhaps easier) to use.

I have done this and saw no real drawback. The only addition I have made is changing it to do a reset after 6 seconds. As opposed to switching back and forth between the two, the reset will make sure that you always lead off with a thrash.

#showtooltip

/castsequence reset=6 Thrash, Swipe (Bear)

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Could you expand on this? Specifically so Worgen against Night elf? Its a given that Dodge is more valuable then crit, but to what extent does this apply? How much of a survival loss is 1% dodge versus the SD procs of 1% crit? Crit is one of the highest ranked stats for Feral DPS and I commonly fill the OT role where I will spend significant time in cat form. Additionally Shadow meld has no virtually no raid practically, while Darkflight has limited usefulness is more practical.

Quickness has actually changed, currently it is "Reduces the chance that melee and ranged attackers will hit you by 2%." Which makes it much more useful than the 1% dodge as I think it was also effected by diminished returns while there now with the removal of defense no real way to decrease the chance a boss can hit you. Making Druids above Worgens.

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Could you expand on your reasoning for reforging master into dodge, versus reforging crit; On such items as the [iTEM]Elementium Destroyer's Ring[/iTEM] and [iTEM]Elementium Poleaxe[/iTEM]? Your charts have mastery listed as more valuable than crit in both tiers.

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Hey, I guess it won't matter as much in the future, but some of the pre-Heroic items require [Chaos Orb]s to make. Being as they drop in Heroics, it's kind of a catch-22 item to be putting into a pre-Heroic item category. Sure, they don't require the player themselves to be getting them, but since they're BoP, they probably won't be very widely available, if at all for the moment. Could you look into some alternatives for these slots?

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#showtooltip

/castsequence Thrash(Bear Form), Swipe(Bear Form)

So the first time I click it, it'll use Thrash. The second time, swipe. The way I see it, it'd just make AoE tanking a lot simpler by condensing your two moves into one button. The rotation would just be that macro twice, another move (e.g. Lacerate, Mangle), and then the macro twice again, and so on.

I would add a reset value, either time based, or at a minimum with the combat variable, to ensure you always have your preferred ability up first. As mentioned before, I would prefer swipe for initial snap threat. For example:

#showtooltip 

/castsequence reset=6 Swipe(Bear Form), Thrash

That will give you Swipe first, with the macro going back to Swipe as it comes off CD 6 secs later if you don't use Thrash by then. This will most likely be the case between pulls, which is why I said you could also use "reset=combat" instead. The only problem with that one is if you (or some impatient dps) chain pulls another pack, the combat variable might reset it back to an ability that's still on CD. I prefer the timer.

Also, in regards to your suggestion of rotation, you'll actually need to pop *two* other abilities while those in the macro are on CD. A total of 4 GCDs covering 6sec to get the first of those abilities off of CD. Macro 2x and one other GCD only uses 4.5sec.

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Regarding the stat ratings posted above by Hinalover, a couple of the values didn’t look quite right to me, so I did some sanity check calculations.

The value of agility seemed a bit low, so I made the following check:

Agility should be approximately .73*Dodge + .55*Crit + Strength. This looks good, so if agility is low, it’s because one of those stats are valued lower than they should be.

The ratio of dodge to armor seems low, so I looked at how much dodge and how much armor would be required to increase the damage reduction by 1%. (These values include the effects of diminishing returns and make the assumption that 1% damage reduction from armor is about the same as 1% dodge.)

In my pre-heroic set, the values were 211 dodge rating and 391 armor.

In my pre-raid set, the values were 218 dodge rating and 404 armor.

In my theoretical BiS (heroic raid) set, the values were 242 dodge rating and 457 armor.

Since in all cases, it takes more armor to get 1% reduction, then dodge rating should be more valuable than armor. Inverting the values above give dodge to armor ratios of: 1.85, 1.85, and 1.89. This makes me believe that the rating values for armor and dodge need to be adjusted, and they are actually almost reversed from what they should be. (On a side note, the armor to bonus armor ratio is dead on from my calculations, so that value should also be adjusted accordingly.)

If the values for armor and dodge are reversed, then the following stat values would also have to change: agility goes up to maintain the calculation above and bonus armor goes down to maintain its ratio with armor. Another minor change is that strength is listed as 2x AP, which means the values were not computed with the Mark of the Wild buff present. This would have the effect of slightly increasing the value of strength.

Making the changes above to the posted stat ratings would give the following:

Pre-Heroic Dungeon

[TABLE]Stat|Rating

Stamina|50.69

Agility|37.21

Dodge Rating|35.77

Armor|21.69

Mastery Rating|9.49

Strength|8.15

Bonus Armor|6.61

Expertise Rating|6.35

Crit Rating|6.33

Attack Power|3.88

Hit Rating|3.19

Health|2.13

Haste Rating|0.94[/TABLE]

Pre-Tier 11 Raid

[TABLE]Stat|Rating

Stamina|47.13

Agility|34.44

Dodge Rating|35.54

Armor|19.55

Mastery Rating|7.41

Crit Rating|6.35

Bonus Armor|5.46

Strength|5.15

Expertise Rating|4.77

Health|3.19

Attack Power|2.4

Hit Rating|2.13

Haste Rating|0.66[/TABLE]

I suspect that the other secondary stats should be valued higher as well, although at this point, the only evidence for that is the BearCADv2 spreadsheet by Fasc, which was mentioned in the older Bear thread. (I can't seem to find a link to it now.)

It would be nice to see if anyone else has been working on stat rating calculations or simulations so we can come up with balanced values that agree using multiple models.

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Finwe,

With Hinalover's numbers coming from Rawr, I'd assume his score is a combination of threat, mitigation, and survival.

Your Dodge/Armor numbers may be correct for Mitigation (defined roughly as what % of raw incoming damage do I end up taking), but I believe Dodge has no value at all for Rawr's Survival number (defined roughly as how long will I live with no healing, and RNG going entirely against me).

Just looking at Rawr's RSV for a naked bear, I see Stamina contributes only to Survival, and Dodge contributes only to Mitigation. Armor contributes to both Mitigation and Survival, and that helps explain its high ranking in Hinalover's list.

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Pardon my ignorance, but does the gem stacking for Pre-Tier 11 raid essentially look like a stam stack, like in Wrath? I ask because the "bear guide" on MMO definitely suggests stacking expertise gems prior to stamina.

Also, the discussion is raging on back there about dodge vs. agility. Are the added bonuses of agility worth the slight dodge loss?

In regards to a weapon enchant, they suggest Landslide while y'all suggest an agility enchant. Does Windwalk not have a place in anyone's arsenal?

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On the gear list you state it insist on sot parry cap which I assuming to be 6.5% to remove dodge, yet none of the gear has any expertise, no reforge to expertise or any expertise at all really. It is a 0 expertise set.

Why insist on Parry soft cap and have 0 expertise? What am I missing?

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So im wondering what the armor numbers look like on your bears, right now im at 10250 caster form, and 29990 in bear form with 330 average itemlevel.

Before i repseced i was way above 35k+ armor with over 60% damage reduction :/

Was it bugged before? or is there a problem now?

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Finwe,

With Hinalover's numbers coming from Rawr, I'd assume his score is a combination of threat, mitigation, and survival.

Your Dodge/Armor numbers may be correct for Mitigation (defined roughly as what % of raw incoming damage do I end up taking), but I believe Dodge has no value at all for Rawr's Survival number (defined roughly as how long will I live with no healing, and RNG going entirely against me).

Just looking at Rawr's RSV for a naked bear, I see Stamina contributes only to Survival, and Dodge contributes only to Mitigation. Armor contributes to both Mitigation and Survival, and that helps explain its high ranking in Hinalover's list.

Following this assumption, wouldn't [iTEM]56370[/iTEM] be a good contender next to [iTEM]56347[/iTEM] because it provides both static mitigation and an optional cooldown for survival, albeit a small one?

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Spotted an error, in the OP list it suggests reforging haste to dodge on Boots of the Predator, but they only have hit/crit.

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Following this assumption, wouldn't [iTEM]56370[/iTEM] be a good contender next to [iTEM]56347[/iTEM] because it provides both static mitigation and an optional cooldown for survival, albeit a small one?

I'd assume that old [iTEM]50344[/iTEM] is also BiS for those who obtained the item before cataclysm, since we value armor so high, even the old glove enchant with armor at the moment looks about 4 times better.

The stcking stamina with so huge amount of armor is a great bonus along, but i noticed that it barely stacks on mobs 85+, even on huge aoe packs. Might be unlucky but it would require more testing.

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Following this assumption, wouldn't [iTEM]56370[/iTEM] be a good contender next to [iTEM]56347[/iTEM] because it provides both static mitigation and an optional cooldown for survival, albeit a small one?

Since trinkets by default have 0 armor all the armor on trinkets counts as "Bonus Armor" rather than just "Armor". Basically this means it doesn't get increased by Bear Form causing it to have a much lower value and thus [iTEM]56370[/iTEM] loses out to stamina trinkets. [iTEM]50344[/iTEM] might still be ok since it seems they chose not to to nerf trinkets in the general bonus armor shaft that occured.

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Wouldn't [iTEM]67135[/iTEM] rate higher than [iTEM]56562[/iTEM] ?

With pre-raid ratings, comparison shows them almost equal but doesn't seem to count in 2 sockets from [iTEM]67135[/iTEM].

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Since trinkets by default have 0 armor all the armor on trinkets counts as "Bonus Armor" rather than just "Armor". Basically this means it doesn't get increased by Bear Form causing it to have a much lower value and thus [Heart of Thunder] loses out to stamina trinkets. [unidentifiable Organ] might still be ok since it seems they chose not to to nerf trinkets in the general bonus armor shaft that occured.
While it doesn't get multplied 2000 armor is still a large amount of mitigation. Given the importance of actually reducing damage instead of soaking it both UO and [item]Glyph of Indomitability[/item]have good value going forward. I expect them to be nerfed.

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Now while I've only stepped into 10man raids a handful of times so far, I'm curious as to why we favor stamina so much, since bosses don't hit for half our hp anymore. Considering that mana is more the limiting factor, wouldnt dodge/mitigation be king instead of stamina for gems?

My RL and I went back and forth on this, his arguments seem quite solid.

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