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Hinalover

[Feral-Bear] Cataclysm Release

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I agree. However, when comparing why bear A takes less damage than bear B in a heroic and one stacks mastery vs the other dodge, that's the reason why.

There is no parry haste for anyone any more, so stacking expertise is a poor choice for that reason. If Rawr is doing that because expertise stops parry haste it is wrong. I suspect Rawr recommends expertise because up until the dodge cap expertise is a very efficient way to get more SD procs.

This is the second post I've seen on EJ today mentioning how expertise gives more SD procs. Unless everything I know about the combat table is wrong, this is just wrong (unless you're crit capped in bear form I suppose) Is there something I'm missing here?

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I tanked Halfus Wyrmbreaker for our raid tonight and last night, we got him tonight after we switched the warrior onto Halfus and me onto adds. I couldn't get enough SD procs to make it worthwhile for me to stay on Halfus, because we had the Nether Scion as one of our drakes, giving him 100% haste.

Coconutowl @ Frostwolf - Game - World of Warcraft

Is this a problem with my gearing or are bears really meant to be a squishier tank than warriors? After we switched to the warrior tank we got him in two attempts, after at least 3-4 hours of wiping overall. I originally was reforged for dodge but I changed to mastery for tonight's attempts with little noticeable increase or decrease in overall damage taken. I guess what I'm trying to say is I can't really improve my gear and this entry level boss was murdering me, is anyone else having a similar experience?

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This is the second post I've seen on EJ today mentioning how expertise gives more SD procs. Unless everything I know about the combat table is wrong, this is just wrong (unless you're crit capped in bear form I suppose) Is there something I'm missing here?

Yellow attacks are on a two roll table where avoidance is rolled first before checking for crits. Your actual Yellow Crit% = c * (1-m-d) where c = your white crit strike chance, m = miss chance and d = dodge chance

In some cases, if your Critical Strike% is high enough ( c > (1-m-d)/2 ), you may even get more Yellow Crit% out 1 Expertise Rating than from 1 Critical Strike Rating

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Mastery is strictly inferior to Blocking in the scenario of many smaller attacks because Savage Defense only blocks one attack (no matter how small) and must be regained by our attacks. As the number of attackers increases, the window of opportunity for a bear to crit and proc SD decreases significantly and less attacks will be absorbed.

Unless this was changed from WotLK, the SD "block" does not vanish instantly, but there's a small time window where it's still up and blocking even after you got hit the 1st time, Time to do some tests to see if it's still the case in Cataclysm....

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Yellow attacks are on a two roll table where avoidance is rolled first before checking for crits. Your actual Yellow Crit% = c * (1-m-d) where c = your white crit strike chance, m = miss chance and d = dodge chance

In some cases, if your Critical Strike% is high enough ( c > (1-m-d)/2 ), you may even get more Yellow Crit% out 1 Expertise Rating than from 1 Critical Strike Rating

So does this apply to hit, too?

And when there is crit and expertise on an item, we should reforge crit -> dodge?

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So does this apply to hit, too?

And when there is crit and expertise on an item, we should reforge crit -> dodge?

It does apply to hit, but since 1% hit only helps half as much as 1% expertise (below 6.5% expertise) you would need to fulfill c > 1-m-d instead of c > (1-d-m)/2. Since 1% crit requires more rating than 1% expertise, its actually feasible to be at the point where one expertise rating gives more proccs from special attacks than one crit rating. When you bring white hits back into the equation you will never (in this tier or the next at least) be able to reach a crit value where expertise gives more proccs in total.

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a) I turned off Parry haste and adjusted the base swing speed of the boss to 2.5 so that Infected wounds is able to bring down that number to usual 2 seconds. As far as I know of, none of the first tier bosses parry haste. I can change that value if we do find out that one or more of the bosses parry haste.

Infected Wounds increases the seconds between swings rather than decreases. Starting with a swing timer of 2.5 seconds and then applying Infected Wounds would result in a very slow swing time of 3.0 seconds, not 2.0 seconds. If you want the post-Infected Wounds swing time to be 2.0 seconds, you should adjust the swing timer to 1.666 (repeating, of course) seconds.

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I tanked Halfus Wyrmbreaker for our raid tonight and last night, we got him tonight after we switched the warrior onto Halfus and me onto adds. I couldn't get enough SD procs to make it worthwhile for me to stay on Halfus, because we had the Nether Scion as one of our drakes, giving him 100% haste.

Coconutowl @ Frostwolf - Game - World of Warcraft

Is this a problem with my gearing or are bears really meant to be a squishier tank than warriors? After we switched to the warrior tank we got him in two attempts, after at least 3-4 hours of wiping overall. I originally was reforged for dodge but I changed to mastery for tonight's attempts with little noticeable increase or decrease in overall damage taken. I guess what I'm trying to say is I can't really improve my gear and this entry level boss was murdering me, is anyone else having a similar experience?

You're full expertise reforged. Convert nearly all of that (sims say all) to dodge instead. That will give you a huge mit increase (will make trash in heroics hell w/o expertise though). Expertise does nothing for survival/mit anymore, and threat is a non issue other than on the pull. I tanked Halfus in a 3 tank strat so he had no buffs and I was getting beat pretty bad. I also had much better than entry level gear (ailvl 352). I'd chalk this up as Druids not being equal to Warriors. I have yet to see a warrior tank in Cata however.

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So does this apply to hit, too?

And when there is crit and expertise on an item, we should reforge crit -> dodge?

To a lesser extend. I mentioned (1-m-d), but it's actually (1-m-d-p) where p = chance of being parried.

1 expertise reduces the chance of being dodged and being parried, so it gives twice the benefit of hit, at least until the soft expertise cap.

Ya, my preference when it comes to reforging is dodge > mastery > expertise > critical strike. At some gear points, even before expertise cap, critical strike may be very slightly better than expertise for mitigation, but threat-wise expertise is so much better than critical strikes that it's worth the insignificant sacrifice.

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So I'm going over logs from recent Halfus Wyrmbreaker, Maloriak, and Omnitron kills. (I'd post them, but they're set to private for some reason).

What I found is that I'm taking much less average damage per hit as opposed to Warriors/Paladins, but more damage overall due to the lack of block and avoidance. Damage seems to be much spikier on me as opposed to the Warrior/Paladin. Granted, that's how druids have generally always been as tanks - but we also had much larger stamina pools to compensate, which clearly isn't the case anymore.

This leads me to two general questions.

1. Will, as our gear improves, our mitigation improve at a scale greater than that of warriors/paladins to a point where we take roughly the same amount of damage? Unlike them, our mitigation isn't always present and is reliant on our critical strike chance and attack power

2. If not, are there any advantages or any reasons for a competitive raiding guild to take a druid tank over a Warrior/Paladin?

If anyone would like specific data from the logs, I can always transcribe it onto here.

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It does apply to hit, but since 1% hit only helps half as much as 1% expertise (below 6.5% expertise) you would need to fulfill c > 1-m-d instead of c > (1-d-m)/2. Since 1% crit requires more rating than 1% expertise, its actually feasible to be at the point where one expertise rating gives more proccs from special attacks than one crit rating. When you bring white hits back into the equation you will never (in this tier or the next at least) be able to reach a crit value where expertise gives more proccs in total.

Don't be too sure of that! According to Fasc spreadsheet (which I have personally reviewed to be mostly correct, there are some slight errors won't affect results significantly), Expertise Rating pulls ahead of Crit Rating by about 10%. It's not too surprising because a bear should have ~33% crit, buffed to ~42% with pulverize. With 0 Hit and Expertise, m+d+p adds up to 29.5%, so a bear would generally have about 25%. While expertise doesn't affect affect crits from white attacks, there are more yellow attacks than white attacks, so I won't be surprise that Expertise Rating overall pulls ahead of Critical Strike Rating.

I haven't personally reviewed Rawr.Bear numbers, so I'm less trusting of those numbers. The first set of values shows Expertise being ahead of Critical Strike by some insignificant amount while the second set shows Critical Strike being ahead by ~33% which doesn't look right to me.

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So I am not sure what is going on, but going from [item]Toskk's Maximized Wristguards[/item] to [item]Poison Fang Bracers[/item] I LOST 500 armor for some reason. From 30.8k to 30.3k. The enchant on both is identical. I also gained only 0.16% dodge from 45 agility (although I'm not sure if this part is normal or not). The stamina contribution is as expected.

Just wondering if someone who still kept their old bracers around can do some checking for me to see if I am the only one having this issue.

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I was wondering if any of the darkmoon cards ([iTEM]Darkmoon Card: Hurricane[/iTEM] or [iTEM]Darkmoon Card: Earthquake[/iTEM]) would be useful for a druid tank at all? I didn't see them on the rawr list, but it seems that the stats on both cards could, possibly, be borderline?

Also, as a ring, the [iTEM]Gilnean Ring of Ruination[/iTEM] seems to be close to those JC crafted rings. Do the gem slots make that big of a difference?

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So you're implying 321 dodge rating is better than 321 agility? That 3 minute clickable isn't that thrilling to put Earthquake over the top. I'd use Heroic Tia's Grace over both of those. I personally don't see what 10k extra health will do for you on a 3m cooldown that's phenomenal. Also, hurricanes proc doesn't affect tank survival or mitigation obviously, but it's a dual use trinket. If there's a period on a fight you can switch to cat and help DPS, it's a great trinket still. Earthquake does absolutely nothing. I'm a big fan of dual use items / gear, especially if someone plans on dropping 50-90k+ on a darkmoon card.

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As a tank I'd rather have 321 dodge rating (1.8% dodge) with a 10k health use than a flat 321 Agi (1.3% dodge). Earthquake's on use isn't spectacular, but thusfar on use abilities have been much weaker than in previous expansions.

That being said Tia's Grace is a fantastic trinket all around, especially for a heroic drop.

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Ok, I've done the test on savage defense. The only caveat is that I used some cheap Vashj'ir mobs (the crabs which do the "flurry" attacks) instead of elites or a boss, but I would really be surprised if the mechanics changed. It works really strange:

Combat log:

I gain savage defense here:

12/19 15:02:35.781 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,62606,"Savage Defense",0x8,BUFF

Flurry attack starts:

12/19 15:02:36.375 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,83

12/19 15:02:36.375 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,108

12/19 15:02:36.781 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,84

12/19 15:02:36.781 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,81

12/19 15:02:36.781 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,87

12/19 15:02:36.781 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,96

......attacks go on for some time....

12/19 15:02:40.812 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,97

12/19 15:02:40.812 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,107

12/19 15:02:40.812 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,113

12/19 15:02:40.812 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,104

12/19 15:02:40.812 SWING_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,ABSORB,397

12/19 15:02:41.078 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA003390FB,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,82

12/19 15:02:41.078 SPELL_MISSED,0xF53099FA00339167,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,ABSORB,105

...and finally here Savage Defense is removed.

12/19 15:02:41.078 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,62606,"Savage Defense",0x8,BUFF

Weirdness: it's just after the first SWING_ event. So it looks like it absorbed a ton of small attacks but then a single swing dispelled it.

Later on in the logs:

12/19 15:03:16.296 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,62606,"Savage Defense",0x8,BUFF

12/19 15:03:16.515 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0xF53099FA00338A63,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0xF53099FA00338A63,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,79175,"Slap & Chop",0x1,BUFF

12/19 15:03:16.687 SWING_MISSED,0xF53099FA0033A504,"Green Sand Crab",0xa28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,ABSORB,367

12/19 15:03:16.687 SPELL_DAMAGE,0xF53099FA00338A63,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,95,-1,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

12/19 15:03:16.687 SPELL_DAMAGE,0xF53099FA00338A63,"Green Sand Crab",0x10a28,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,79176,"Slap & Chop",0x1,104,-1,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

12/19 15:03:16.687 SPELL_PERIODIC_HEAL,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,34299,"Leader of the Pack",0x1,5026,0,0,nil

12/19 15:03:16.687 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,0x0180000001B138CB,"Helistar",0x511,62606,"Savage Defense",0x8,BUFF

Here the swing from the crab arrived very soon (they were not casting the flurry attack thing): Savage Defense goes away after the first swing. It doesn't even protect me from the two Slap & Chop which arrive before the SPELL_AURA_REMOVED. As you certainly didn't miss, it's inconsistent with what I reported just above, where SD kept protecting me after the SWING_MISSED.

I'll try again some more testing on cheap mobs, but it's hard to have a ton of them hitting me without getting killed or without me destroying them too fast....

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A question about Halfus Wyrmbreaker. With the slate drake up he does a healing debuff on the tank. It is called "malevolent strikes" and stacks up to 15 times. Each stack reduces healing received by 6%. The numbers seem to have changed a lot since beginning of beta, but that's the numbers we encountered yesterday.

From the description of the debuff it should apply each time Halfus hits the tank. However, in my combat log it seems that the debuff also was applied when the attack was dodged/'blocked' via savage defense. I also never dodged the debuff individually. I've not been missed by Halfus at all.

Can anybody confirm this ?

On a side note: We had the The Nether Scion, The Slate Dragon and The Storm Rider active yesterday and have no idea at all on how to beat this combination in a 10-man even though we were able to remove the debuff with a paladins hand of protection, which seems a bit too good.

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In the fight you are discussing Qutossar you should really be killing the Nether Scion (the debuff it puts on the boss reduces his chance to hit, his attack speed, and his damage done by 25%) and the Storm Rider (which slows the shadow nova cast time to interuptable levels), this it what my raid did for this fight 3-4 days ago and we managed to kill him within an hour dispite him still doing a lot more damage through his Add firing more fireballs and the stacking mortal strike debuff.

And back on topic has anyone else felt like other tanks cannot match our threat at the start of a fight, because during all boss fights the warrior tanks in our raid are usually struggling against mine and dps's threat during the start of a pull (even when the dps are holding back and i'm just meleeing with a mangle thrown in every 7-10 seconds depending on threat), but whenever I pull first the dps usually say they can go full out with the threat that I generate.

Does this mean that our threat generation is a lot higher than warriors and other tanks (anyone able to confirm as i haven't played with other tanks?) and that we are soon to be addjusted to be in line with other tanks, or that the other tanks are given a boost? (I've been thinking about this since the lastest blue post from Blizzard regarding threat needing to matter)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/1693171

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In the fight you are discussing Qutossar you should really be killing the Nether Scion (the debuff it puts on the boss reduces his chance to hit, his attack speed, and his damage done by 25%) and the Storm Rider (which slows the shadow nova cast time to interuptable levels), this it what my raid did for this fight 3-4 days ago and we managed to kill him within an hour dispite him still doing a lot more damage through his Add firing more fireballs and the stacking mortal strike debuff.

And back on topic has anyone else felt like other tanks cannot match our threat at the start of a fight, because during all boss fights the warrior tanks in our raid are usually struggling against mine and dps's threat during the start of a pull (even when the dps are holding back and i'm just meleeing with a mangle thrown in every 7-10 seconds depending on threat), but whenever I pull first the dps usually say they can go full out with the threat that I generate.

Does this mean that our threat generation is a lot higher than warriors and other tanks (anyone able to confirm as i haven't played with other tanks?) and that we are soon to be addjusted to be in line with other tanks, or that the other tanks are given a boost? (I've been thinking about this since the lastest blue post from Blizzard regarding threat needing to matter)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/1693171

Quite the opposite I've found that the DK tank I'm running with in our 10 man raids has a very large amount of snap (initial) threat regardless of whether he has a significant stack of vengeance. It's been fairly even overall, but at times I've had him pull the same mob and easily surpass my initial threat. We are both similarly geared.

I however haven't had any experience tanking along side a Warrior or Paladin in a raid.

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According to the pre-raid numbers in the first post, the PvP gear seems to be the best choice for a bear despite the fact that we lose a lot of threat stats because of the resilience.

I've made this gear list on Wowhead, maybe it should help :

Items - World of Warcraft

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To expand (and apparently challenge) the warriors vs druid tanks theory; we've noticed a substantial difference between damage taken & threat regarding myself and our warrior tank. Even from as far back as heroics all the way to Cho'gall, it has been evident that druids are out-preforming warriors on both threat and damage taken for single target tanking. Savage defense lends itself to absorbing the large hits from bosses, while a warrior's block is going to be better for tanking smaller hits from multiple targets, as in adds. Of course this doesn't take into account player skill or healer attentiveness, but said warrior was the best geared warrior in the world at the time of this testing (according to some silly site.) Both he and I started in full heroic gear, he received an upgrade per boss up until 11/12, while all I picked up was a weapon and much much later a belt and 2P tier. He out-geared me heavily (and still does) throughout our progression.

Clearly this is just one example regarding just two players but I didn't see any posts with these results, so I'm curious if anyone else has made similar observances or if this is just an isolated occurrence. I suppose it is worth nothing that this is 25m normal difficulty in Bastion, Descent & Throne of the Four Winds, I can't speak for 10m encounters.

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In your "pre-heroic" set (original post), you have items that require chaos orbs to craft. Those orbs are no drop and only found in heroic dungeons.

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