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Hamlet

[Balance] Cataclysm 4.3 (Dragon Soul)

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Guys, before this gets really off track and Carebear has to start gently reminding everyone that there's a separate Mists of Pandaria thread, we should probably keep the discussion here limited to what we have in 4.3.

Back on topic:

I would like to hear some people's ideas on how to make Balance more competitive.

The fight mechanics this tier actually work fairly well for balance druids. Even though this should be an obvious statement, you should always be thinking about how one of your abilities could jive with a particular fight mechanic. Just a few examples of what I've seen in Heroic DS so far:

  • H-Morchok: there's a huge amount of time where dps has to stop on the boss, so keep your DoTs rolling and use SR/Dash liberally. You'll most earn your raid spot with your DR and Barkskin for soaking, even if your dps is lower than you'd want it to be.
    .
  • H-Yorsah'j: Innervate a healer after the Mana Void comes out and your glyph will provide you immediate mana. Also, plan your Eclipse so that you'll be 1 cast away from hitting one when the Void comes out: instant 14k mana, where other casters will be hurting. Shrooms Black adds on CD, keep DoTs rolling on the boss at all times. Again, SR and Dash liberally.
    .
  • H-Zon'ozz: do I have to say "SR liberally" again? So many targets means that you'll be in heaven DoTing up all that you can. Preplanting shrooms on your side's tentacles also helps quite a bit.

The only fight I'm really concerned about for boomkin is H-Ultraxion... I'm not sure we can earn our raid spot on that fight in comparison to other classes, unless you're someone with Dragonwrath. Even then, though, I'd want someone who can stay down for an Hour.

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If your in a 10man guild dps doesn't exactly matter so you will not lose your raid spot at all.

im pulling 36-38k consistently on heroic ultraxion 25 can push more had some random logs at 40k +

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Are you using Glyph of Insect Swarm at the same time as Starfall in Lunar only? Because without GoSS, you have to have Starfall on CD, as the cycle is too short to get Starfall every time otherwise. That looks to be inflating your figures.

Yes, I've created the bis list changing the pieces on the live import of my character and forgot to change the glyph >.<

that could be the cause, correcting it gives me 49295,89 DPS (BiS profile and not the 3101 breakpoint)

Is WC computing the real gain from using GoSS + 4t13 already ?

Just curious what you guys are doing on Madness for killing bloods. My guild is killing Green -> Red -> Blue -> Yellow and we're having trouble burning the bloods down without the 20% buff. When they spawn we finish the Blistering Tentacles and then let the bloods full heal before we start on them. I'm in solar and put down mushrooms as the tank groups them and then burst followed by hurricane. Worth Sunfiring them or no?

Here's the damage taken from all our attempts - World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Any suggestions other than leaving Blue buff up the longest?

In my guild we follow the exact same order Green, Red, Blue, Yellow. On the last platform we ignore the blood, tank it inside the nozdormu bubble and when the phase 2 begins we get back all the aspect's buffs and one-shot the blood(because spell weaving is back).

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You can double dot on H Morchok as well, as long as your group doesn't tank the two literally across the instance from each other (I've seen some vids like that). To be the best DPS at gimmick fights is not really something to be proud of, and dotting all the adds is best for your DPS but not necessarily the best to kill everything in a timely manner. H Morchok is the only exception because you have to kill both bosses and there is no DPS loss from padding your meters.

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You can double dot on H Morchok as well, as long as your group doesn't tank the two literally across the instance from each other (I've seen some vids like that). To be the best DPS at gimmick fights is not really something to be proud of, and dotting all the adds is best for your DPS but not necessarily the best to kill everything in a timely manner. H Morchok is the only exception because you have to kill both bosses and there is no DPS loss from padding your meters.

I'm not too sure what gimmick fights you're talking about but so far in 10HC:

Morchok: Good Moonkin fight in most cases but since it's easiest with 4 healers you can just spec Resto here and make it a breeze

Zon'ozz: Also healed here but ranged DoT classes with passive damage reductions (Warlocks, SPs, Moonkins) are awesome here to kill the tentacles quickly while keeping boss DPS up

Yor'sahj: If you do it like us and focus on yellow and green oozes in HC and you play well around blue oozes (don't kill mana void before next mana void/get 1 cast before eclipse so you can enter eclipse when drained and regain mana) you can really make use of multi-dotting and AoEing here to bring the faceless ones down as fast as possible (they hit fairly high in HC)

Hagara: DoT classes, again, are really strong for the frost phase and damage reductions (Moonkin Form + Barkskin) help you to avoid random deaths to Shattered Ice

Ultraxion: Moonkin isn't that strong here but I was still able to hold my weight with ~39.5k DPS in only 4.2 + BoE / VP gear - however this is definitely the fight where Moonkins are really lacking, both in utility and DPS

Blackhorn: Haven't killed him yet but another fight that favors DoT classes and passive damage reductions

In all these cases, multi-DoTing is actually beneficial to the raid and not just DPS padding.

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Faerra, that Ultraxion log is supremely impressive. Are there any tricks that you are focusing on as far as your ability to keep NG uptime as high as you have it?

I do not have DW, nor will I ever, and I don't raid with a lock so no DI either. I was able to get about 66% NG uptime this lockout and pulled 31.5k in ~386 ilvl. I focused more on NG and a lot less on dots, but still maintained about a 93% uptime for both IS and Mf/Snf.

Is it just he ability to run through cycles so much faster with DW/DI that is helping to accomplish your figures?

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Just wanted to add:

I found to specing into Lunar Shower to be a nice DPS increase on Heroic Hagarra. (Ice Phase)

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Faerra, that Ultraxion log is supremely impressive. Are there any tricks that you are focusing on as far as your ability to keep NG uptime as high as you have it?

I do not have DW, nor will I ever, and I don't raid with a lock so no DI either. I was able to get about 66% NG uptime this lockout and pulled 31.5k in ~386 ilvl. I focused more on NG and a lot less on dots, but still maintained about a 93% uptime for both IS and Mf/Snf.

Is it just he ability to run through cycles so much faster with DW/DI that is helping to accomplish your figures?

I soaked the first HoT together with our Feral tank using his 4pcT13 and my Moonkin Form + Barkskin + 6% spell damage reduction, otherwise I used a fairly conservative rotation so my DoTs wouldn't run out during HoT/Fading Light and obviously I tried to get as many casts off as possible before using the button.

Last time we did Baleroc I had ~42.5k DPS there so the fight mechanics of Ultraxion still costed me ~3k DPS.

Ultraxion is definitely the single fight where I'd bench a Moonkin in favor of almost any other DPS spec because only few specs have less DPS or less utility.

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Helloes fellow Boomkins and Theroycrafters. I've came to a brickwall where I can't decide whats better. I've came to the problem to decide between 3 trinkets. Larron @ Earthen Ring - Game - World of Warcraft, I'll not have DI nor FM in my raid comp. The trinkets it stands between is VPLC and Insignia of the Corrupted Mind(LFR). I've been running two 18 million dmg tests to Dummys and they both seems equal. Personally, I felt like the VPLC was less rng due to more frequently procs, it felt more stable. While the IotCM could proc just when I'm running towards a globule for example. But yeah, theorywise, which one would perform better? I also have DMC:V, but since I won't break any haste breakpoints with it, I'm assuming both of those are better yeah?

Sorry if this question have been asked in the old thread, but I couldn't find it.

Also, for Yor'sahj heroic, do you guys have any tips to up your dps there? I mean, is it worth solar cleaving the Forgotten Ones (Without LS)? Or will the GCD's just eat my dps due to not enough ticks?

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Helloes fellow Boomkins and Theroycrafters. I've came to a brickwall where I can't decide whats better. I've came to the problem to decide between 3 trinkets. Larron @ Earthen Ring - Game - World of Warcraft, I'll not have DI nor FM in my raid comp. The trinkets it stands between is VPLC and Insignia of the Corrupted Mind(LFR). I've been running two 18 million dmg tests to Dummys and they both seems equal. Personally, I felt like the VPLC was less rng due to more frequently procs, it felt more stable. While the IotCM could proc just when I'm running towards a globule for example. But yeah, theorywise, which one would perform better? I also have DMC:V, but since I won't break any haste breakpoints with it, I'm assuming both of those are better yeah?

Sorry if this question have been asked in the old thread, but I couldn't find it.

Also, for Yor'sahj heroic, do you guys have any tips to up your dps there? I mean, is it worth solar cleaving the Forgotten Ones (Without LS)? Or will the GCD's just eat my dps due to not enough ticks?

Got these results using my own profile (~390 iLevel, 4t12, DTR, DI, 780 int dummy trinket as second trinket) but those shouldn't change much for most trinkets; in case you want to have data for any specific gear setup that's vastly different from the one used, I can quickly run a simulation for that one as well.

Simulationcraft Results

Since I was mixing up the two DS trinkets in my initial post so I'm just going to edit that part out and leave the simulationcraft results as an answer. The list posted isn't necessarily a reply to the quoted post but a list for general usage.

As for Yor'sahj:

Just do your standard single target rotation, if you see a black ooze spawning and your raid is going to let it through, cast until your next solar eclipse and solar cleave until they're down. If you're going to let a blue ooze through without exploiting the mana void, make sure to DoT the mana void up while it's floating above Yor'Sahj when he's draining mana and do one of the following:

a) Innervate yourself after he stopped draining

b) Cast until one spell before Eclipse before he drains mana and enter Eclipse with the first spell after he finishes draining mana so you get back enough mana through Euphoria

c) Use a mana potion as last resort

Also make sure to drop down mushrooms while moving back to the boss in both cases, they save you GCDs when you could be DoTing the Forgotten Ones and you have a good chance to proc a clearcast at no mana cost when you've been drained.

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As for Yor'sahj:

Just do your standard single target rotation, if you see a black ooze spawning and your raid is going to let it through, cast until your next solar eclipse and solar cleave until they're down. If you're going to let a blue ooze through without exploiting the mana void, make sure to DoT the mana void up while it's floating above Yor'Sahj when he's draining mana and do one of the following:

a) Innervate yourself after he stopped draining

b) Cast until one spell before Eclipse before he drains mana and enter Eclipse with the first spell after he finishes draining mana so you get back enough mana through Euphoria

c) Use a mana potion as last resort

Also make sure to drop down mushrooms while moving back to the boss in both cases, they save you GCDs when you could be DoTing the Forgotten Ones and you have a good chance to proc a clearcast at no mana cost when you've been drained.

Glyph of Innervate is also an option if you think you can manage yourself well enough to last through solar cleaving with just Glyph of Innervate mana. It is probably best used with option "b" you mentioned and along with the mana void trick. Other healers have a lot of mana options though so it'll vary on your healers.

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Do you guys go with GoS or GoW? I mean, the dps requirement is quite high on Yor'sahj himself, and to me damage to the Forgotten ones seems like dead damage. It just goes out into the blue. I guess others can focus less on splash damage, but will that really pay off?

And yeah, mana have worked out good, I've always been one cast from a eclipse when we get a void, using innervate on the first one since we're keeping the first void untill we get a second.

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Do you guys go with GoS or GoW? I mean, the dps requirement is quite high on Yor'sahj himself, and to me damage to the Forgotten ones seems like dead damage. It just goes out into the blue. I guess others can focus less on splash damage, but will that really pay off?

And yeah, mana have worked out good, I've always been one cast from a eclipse when we get a void, using innervate on the first one since we're keeping the first void untill we get a second.

I personally go with GoW, no certain reasoning, just didn't think to change it.

Don't think the forgotten ones are dead damage, your healers or dps can die if they don't die and you also have a purple ooze debuff, an explosion on an already low raid can kill them.

I just got the Heroic Insignia of the corrupted mind and I ran some simcrafts and it came out as a 500~ dps loss compared to the heroic necrotic focus...Is our simcraft correct because that doesn't seem right.

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Does the simcraft sim the damage proc as still hitting the target you cast on or just the ones around it? Because as far as I've heard it hits the focal target as well.

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You are thinking of Cunning of the Cruel. Insignia is the one with the monster haste proc.

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I personally go with GoW, no certain reasoning, just didn't think to change it.

Don't think the forgotten ones are dead damage, your healers or dps can die if they don't die and you also have a purple ooze debuff, an explosion on an already low raid can kill them.

I just got the Heroic Insignia of the corrupted mind and I ran some simcrafts and it came out as a 500~ dps loss compared to the heroic necrotic focus...Is our simcraft correct because that doesn't seem right.

WC with my current gear shows swapping HC necromantic focus for LFR Insignia of the corrupted mind as a ~600dps increase. The HC version is definitely an upgrade.

stop using Simcrap, it's bad.

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I personally go with GoW, no certain reasoning, just didn't think to change it.

Don't think the forgotten ones are dead damage, your healers or dps can die if they don't die and you also have a purple ooze debuff, an explosion on an already low raid can kill them.

I just got the Heroic Insignia of the corrupted mind and I ran some simcrafts and it came out as a 500~ dps loss compared to the heroic necrotic focus...Is our simcraft correct because that doesn't seem right.

I posted a list of correctly simulated trinkets a few posts above, you definitely didn't sim it properly when it shows you a DPS loss compared to even NF.

@Larrabee: Simcraft is only bad when you don't use it properly, it's way better than WrathCalcs when it comes to anything involving procs or rotations.

Edit: Even got some data on the procs and int values from Simcraft, going by my list (this isn't the one posted above):

NF: 1751 DPS from Int, 802 DPS from proc -> 2553 DPS total

IotCM: 2091 DPS from Int, 1195 DPS from proc -> 3286 DPS total

Looking at those numbers, you probably didn't have the IotCM proc included in your simulations.

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I recently acquired my staff after many months of waiting and I'm quite confused. Not only do I get less procs per fight (using our H Morchok as an example) than our Shadow Priests, it seems to replicate the smallest possible damage and never one of my main nukes. I have 20 less procs than our top Shadow Priest at 55, but my damage is only 359k. The Priest has 75 procs, with 803k. Is there something in the rotation that must change?

Also, in most of my fights, Wrath is something like 27% of my damage, so I switched out of my GoSS back to GoW--is there any definitive answer on which is the best for DPS?

Edit: I'm leaving my question about WoT but found out that it does replicate more but doesn't attribute the damage to WoT on my main nukes. The procs count as the spell they're proccing, and look the same as if you cast an instant Starsurge at the end of a Starsurge cast just with no GCD.

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I recently acquired my staff after many months of waiting and I'm quite confused. Not only do I get less procs per fight (using our H Morchok as an example) than our Shadow Priests, it seems to replicate the smallest possible damage and never one of my main nukes. I have 20 less procs than our top Shadow Priest at 55, but my damage is only 359k. The Priest has 75 procs, with 803k. Is there something in the rotation that must change?

Also, in most of my fights, Wrath is something like 27% of my damage, so I switched out of my GoSS back to GoW--is there any definitive answer on which is the best for DPS?

Edit: I'm leaving my question about WoT but found out that it does replicate more but doesn't attribute the damage to WoT on my main nukes. The procs count as the spell they're proccing, and look the same as if you cast an instant Starsurge at the end of a Starsurge cast just with no GCD.

You seem have answered your own question about DTR in your edit, basically you are only seeing procs from DoT damage, and understandably (with 4 spells counting as DoTs) SPriests will have more of those procs. What you aren't seeing is procs of your main nukes, Starsurge, Starfall, initial MF/SuF damage, and any WM you may have exploded as they count as another one of the same spell.

As for GoW vs. GoSS I believe (though I may have understood wrongly) that GoSS is a theoretical increase with 4sT13, DI and DTR, as it allows a Starfall in every Lunar. Without the lowered CD on Starsurge, GoW is probably still better, and at the moment it is unknown if GoSS is as viable as suggested due to RNG, and the fact BL may push you through eclipses too fast and throw the Starfall CD out of sync.

EDIT: Latas is correct, at least in WC it is recommended to change GoIS not GoW for GoSS once you have 4sT13.

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I thought one was to replace GoIS with GoSS in the 4t13 situation.

Based on my Morchok damage, even with Wrath being my top spell, it is nearly half of every other glyph's damage. 10% of 2.7m Wrath is 270k. 20% of 3m SF/MF is 500k, and 30% of 1.5m is 460k.

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I recently acquired my staff after many months of waiting and I'm quite confused. Not only do I get less procs per fight (using our H Morchok as an example) than our Shadow Priests, it seems to replicate the smallest possible damage and never one of my main nukes. I have 20 less procs than our top Shadow Priest at 55, but my damage is only 359k. The Priest has 75 procs, with 803k. Is there something in the rotation that must change?

Also, in most of my fights, Wrath is something like 27% of my damage, so I switched out of my GoSS back to GoW--is there any definitive answer on which is the best for DPS?

Edit: I'm leaving my question about WoT but found out that it does replicate more but doesn't attribute the damage to WoT on my main nukes. The procs count as the spell they're proccing, and look the same as if you cast an instant Starsurge at the end of a Starsurge cast just with no GCD.

The primary function of this is to allow your DTR main nuke procs to consume/generate eclipse energy to properly serve as a duplicated spell in our rotation.

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Based on my Morchok damage, even with Wrath being my top spell, it is nearly half of every other glyph's damage. 10% of 2.7m Wrath is 270k. 20% of 3m SF/MF is 500k, and 30% of 1.5m is 460k.

I assume you are soaking crystals, which means this is ultimately a heavy movement fight throughout, it is entirely possible that GoIS produces better results when you are unable to hard cast properly.

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I assume you are soaking crystals, which means this is ultimately a heavy movement fight throughout, it is entirely possible that GoIS produces better results when you are unable to hard cast properly.

As a counter to that argument, here's the results I had over a full night of heroic Ultraxion wipes:

53,141,921 - Wrath

23,280,124 - Insect Swarm

37,640,881 - Sunfire + Moonfire

10% of wrath = 5.3 mil. 30% of insect swarm = 7.0 mil. 20% of sunfire + moonfire = 7.5 mil. Wrath glyph is still the loser here.

PS - unless the 4p T13 is absolutely amazing, I can't see how you can have starfall up every lunar. It was off by 15 seconds at times ...

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As a counter to that argument, here's the results I had over a full night of heroic Ultraxion wipes:

53,141,921 - Wrath

23,280,124 - Insect Swarm

37,640,881 - Sunfire + Moonfire

10% of wrath = 5.3 mil. 30% of insect swarm = 7.0 mil. 20% of sunfire + moonfire = 7.5 mil. Wrath glyph is still the loser here.

PS - unless the 4p T13 is absolutely amazing, I can't see how you can have starfall up every lunar. It was off by 15 seconds at times ...

Your math is incorrect but it doesn't really change the results. 10% of your wraths total damage is more than the 10% increase you received to get to the total damage you did. For glyph of wrath you'd want x + .1x = 53,141,921 to get to how much wrath damage you'd do without the glyph, then multiply that by .1.

This gives us the actual damage values of the glyphs given the amount of damage you did over the course of the night.

Wrath = 4.8mill. IS = 5.3mill. MF+SF = 6.3mill

So Glyph of Wrath is still the weakest but that's exactly what my WrathCalcs says is the weakest for me in 4 piece heroic T12 with Dragonwrath. It appears that Glyph of Wrath only pulls ahead of Glyph of Insect swarm once you get 4piece Heroic T13.

Edit: I'm unconvinced that glyph of starsurge will be a dps increase on actual fights even with BIS gear due to starfall not lining up nicely with lunar eclipse at current haste levels + DTR. WrathCalcs is very optimistic and assumes that you will be able to starfall every lunar eclipse w/o fail.

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