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jerrik666

Death Knight: Cataclysm Simple Q & A

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Quick question about the level 85 hit cap for frost DW: In the frost thread, Consider says:

"At level 85, you need 960 hit rating to be melee capped; 840 hit rating as a Draenei. This affects all of your melee attacks, white and yellow, preventing them from missing."

I'm assuming this is for dual wield and does this take into account Nerves of Cold Steel 3/3? Thanks

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That is not for dual wield, it is only for 2h frost. When you include NoCS and dualwielding you need only 5% hit (which is 600hit) and a lot more to get zero misses on melee attacks.

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I understand the purpose of the main tanking thread being information on endgame tanking, and the role of Elitist Jerks itself in the scheme of things.

That said, I was wondering where to go as a resource for tanking currently. At this point in time, (which is what most people care about) nobody is in the endgame - instead heroics are fulfilling that role, at least for most people.

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I understand the purpose of the main tanking thread being information on endgame tanking, and the role of Elitist Jerks itself in the scheme of things.

That said, I was wondering where to go as a resource for tanking currently. At this point in time, (which is what most people care about) nobody is in the endgame - instead heroics are fulfilling that role, at least for most people.

Try Index to our guides : DK tank basics for some basic information

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I'm wondering what the best presence would be for DK tanks who find themselves in situations where they no longer need to tank, and only need to help the DPS finish an encounter (e.g. final phase of the Ozumat encounter, or any other "untankable" part of an encounter), but cannot switch their talents. Does DPS in blood spec benefit more from frost presence or unholy presence? I've been trying to test this empirically myself but it's proving very inconvenient; was wondering if anyone has some math/evidence that points either way.

My gut instinct was unholy presence, but I noticed that I spent an extremely long time just white-damaging, waiting for runes to come off cooldown, which makes me wonder if the 10% damage from frost would be better.

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Improved Blood Presence is still superior in such scenarios: 20% increased rune regen, ability to use Rune Strike, and the additional AP through Bladed Armor outweigh the 10% dmg/runic and 10% rune regen/haste from regular Frost and regular Unholy Presence.

The decision might have been more debatable if they hadn't tacked on that 10/20% rune regen to IBP, but with that... there's absolutely no question.

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Consider, would you be willing to re-post the gear lists for pre-heroics, and pre-raid for DK's in this Q & A thread? I know they are available on your blog. Further I am aware these are not "best in slot" lists, but, are only a listing of some good gear to have while getting ready to raid. I found them to be helpful in my planning, and a nice resource.

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I have tried searching for the answer to this on my own and have come up with nothing. If I am a moron and have missed it, I'm sorry.

As a DK tank, in an aoe pull situation, why wouldn't your order (to start off) go something like DnD, Outbreak, Pestilence, BB? I have tried it myself and it seemed to work ok, but nowhere can I find anyone discussing the use of Pestilence after Outbreak to spread the disease and it seems like something that should work well. Thanks for any help!

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Single Frost priority taken from Consider's thread:

Diseases > Ob if both Frost/Unholy pairs and/or both Death runes are up, or if KM is procced >

BS if both Blood Runes are up > FS if RP capped > Rime > Ob > BS > FS > HoW.

What if KM procs when no FU or DD runes are up? Is it ok to "waste" the proc on FS to maximize the number of procs, or is it preferable to go on with the priority regardless?

I'm guessing "don't worry about it, since FS dump is not far below in the priority list anyway so either your RP cap or your FU runes will come soon enough" but I would like a validation.

Otherwise, my priority would be:

Diseases > Ob If KM procced and FU/DD are up > FS if KM procced > Ob if both Frost/Unholy pairs and/or both Death runes are up > BS if both Blood Runes are up > FS if RP capped > Rime > Ob > BS > FS > HoW

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I have tried searching for the answer to this on my own and have come up with nothing. If I am a moron and have missed it, I'm sorry.

As a DK tank, in an aoe pull situation, why wouldn't your order (to start off) go something like DnD, Outbreak, Pestilence, BB? I have tried it myself and it seemed to work ok, but nowhere can I find anyone discussing the use of Pestilence after Outbreak to spread the disease and it seems like something that should work well. Thanks for any help!

It hasn't been discussed in that context because you have to spread diseases anyways for applying the haste-debuff to all mobs. So it is sort of common sense that you use Pestilence (which is from a survival point of view the cheapest way, since manually casting IT on each mob costs a lot of Death Strikes). Things are not as easy to calcualte if someone else provides the haste-debuff and things boil down to a simple matter of threat, because you are sacrificing a Heart Strike (or Blood Boil if there are many mobs) for the Pestilence. In this case it's often better to not spread diseases at all, but it depends on the number of mobs and how long they are expected to live.

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At the beginner levels of heroic gear (ilvl 230ish) with hit around 6.5% and expertise around 20, both nearing the cap but not quite there. Dodge/parry around 11%. Is it advisable at this content/gear level to gem/reforge for more hit/exp to get closer to the cap, more mastery for the blood shield, or higher avoidance? Assuming that all of this is purely for tanking heroics, of course.

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At the beginner levels of heroic gear (ilvl 230ish) with hit around 6.5% and expertise around 20, both nearing the cap but not quite there. Dodge/parry around 11%. Is it advisable at this content/gear level to gem/reforge for more hit/exp to get closer to the cap, more mastery for the blood shield, or higher avoidance? Assuming that all of this is purely for tanking heroics, of course.

Remember that for heroics, the boss's are not +3 level, or "boss" ?? level.. they are infact still only level 87

This means that for hit you only need 6% and expertise 24 rating total (meaning 24 on your paper doll) in order to not get a miss or a dodge (parry is higher obviously)

Its a common mistake that I see Dk's doing at the moment aiming for "raid" level of hit and expertise when they are only doing heroics, and it makes life a HELL of alot easier to get to 6% hit and 24 expertise rather than 8% hit and 26 expertise.

(please note these figures are relevent to a DK blood tank and other spec's will vary)

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How much DPS improvement is Improved Bloodtap for Unholy DKs? I'm considering taking Anti-Magic Zone for raid utility, if the DPS loss is marginal. I'm seeing every standard spec taking it, but never saw anyone proving the point and I can't do it myself.

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How much DPS improvement is Improved Bloodtap for Unholy DKs? I'm considering taking Anti-Magic Zone for raid utility, if the DPS loss is marginal. I'm seeing every standard spec taking it, but never saw anyone proving the point and I can't do it myself.

The simple answer is, it's an extra free scourge strike once every 30 seconds instead of once every minute. Making a rough estimation, lets say you had a SS hit for 21k.

21000/30(seconds) = 700 dps

As opposed to untalented, every 1 minute

21000/60(seconds) = 350 dps.

So it scales with your gear, but at a decent gear level it will be a few hundred dps difference.

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The simple answer is, it's an extra free scourge strike once every 30 seconds instead of once every minute. Making a rough estimation, lets say you had a SS hit for 21k.

21000/30(seconds) = 700 dps

As opposed to untalented, every 1 minute

21000/60(seconds) = 350 dps.

So it scales with your gear, but at a decent gear level it will be a few hundred dps difference.

Thanks a lot for the answer, sounds much better than I thought. Anti-Magic zone scales with AP, but I'm not sure if it "scales" in relation to incoming raid damage. I have yet to see, if it helps in an encounter more than extra 350 dps.

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I couldn't find any mention of putting Rune Strike in DPS macros, so I'm assuming the answer is no, but would like confirmation. With the change to Rune Strike, is it a waste of runic power to use it as DPS? Thanks.

-> found answer elsewhere. Rune Strike is also on GCD, so answer is probably no.

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So, ideally speaking, Blood DKs desire an equal amount (not percentage but rating) of parry and dodge?

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I have a few questions that I would like opinions on regarding Necrotic Strike. It's PvP-centric however so ignore if you have no care.

1. This scenario is a person is at 30% HP but has an NS stack on them worth 20% of their max HP. Would this be equivalent to somebody at 10% HP with no NS stack on them? This is assuming that the stack does not fall off and it had to be healed or the player with the stacks on them would die. Does anybody agree that this would be accurate?

2. Also, if you were told by somebody that NS was a 100% mortal strike how would your respond to them (constructively speaking)? As in, how would you explain the differences between an NS absorb and a 50% MS?

3. If you were able to get off six attacks in a row during a 10 second CC of,lets say, Scourge Strike. And the string was worth an average of 10k per strike. The player being hit by these strikes had 60k HP. They are now dead at 0HP.

Now, lets say the same players decided to change things up and instead used Necrotic Strike and each strike was worth 2000 damage with an 8k absorb. This leaves the player with 48k HP but they have 48k worth of NS on them.

Which situation would you prefer as a healer?

4. Last question. If somebody said that they would prefer direct damage over an absorb because they could heal the direct damage but they could not heal the absorb despite them being worth the same value, how do you respond?

The numbers are not accurate and are used to make the scenarios and questions easier. I already have my own answers but I was wondering how many people would response similar to myself and how many would respond differently. I am curious because of the sheer amount of people that seem to not understand the mechanics of how NS works.

Thanks :)

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Question 1 and 3 are rhetorical, I would hope!

As far as number 2 goes, it's the same difference between a Power Word: Shield and, say, Icebound Fortitude. PW:S is, after all, 100% damage reduction... until the cap, just as NS is 100% healing reduction until its cap. IBF and MS, on the other hand, reduce damage/healing by a smaller percent, but continue to do so based off a specific period of time, as opposed to a specific amount of damage/healing taken. Now, yes, NS is arguably stronger than PW:S, just as IBF is definitely stronger than MS, but that's simply an issue of specific numbers. Mechanically, it's the same idea.

Although I'm not quite understanding what you're asking about number 4, one can use a PW:S comparison to respond to it as well. One can damage the health of a direct heal, but not the absorb of a shield. Of course, you can damage the shield just as you can heal the NS one, so I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but whatever issue people have with one, it exists for the other!

All of that isn't to say NS might not be too strong. Perhaps you shouldn't be able to stack it up, or maybe the coefficient needs to be nerfed. I, honestly, have no clue, but even if it is too potent at the moment, to claim it's akin to a 100% MS is just horrible logic. It's very, very similar to PW:S... you simply can't stack PW:S, while you can NS, which is likely the largest problem, if there is any, aside from the specific numbers.

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Question 4 a is question about perception and not about stats/numbers. It would appear some people would prefer to see an HP bar go down when damage is incoming and then the HP bar go up when they use a heal. The absorb seems to throw people off and in the end I've talked with a few who are very upset with the NS absorb mechanic. I know this is not a forum that deals with perception and instead deals with hard numbers and facts but I find this topic interesting and worthy of posting anyway. I could be completely wrong though and end up with a ban in the morning too.

These players see their heals do nothing and do not make an immediate impact on the HP bar. Because of this they believe it's a 100% MS rather than see the stack as missing HP that needs missing HP.

I believe people are getting rather upset over the ability due to it causing a late death. They see a player at 20% HP and they blow their CD's to heal them up and instead of the player going to 50% like they expect they see the HP bar stay right where it was or even go lower. What they don't get is if those NS stacks were not there then a direct damage ability like ScS would have been used and the person would have been dead anyway. But due to the healers believing they have a chance at healing the person and not being able to do anything with it they become agitated with the mechanic.

Not to mention if they don't pay attention to NS stacks they can easily get behind. So if they don't treat NS like it's missing HP then it causes issues. I'm of the opinion if there was a mod that showed missing HP for an NS stack most healers who used it would suddenly stop having a ton of issues dealing with getting behind on NS stacks (or they would scream for the DK to be CC'd/peeled so the stack can fall off). Never mind the fact that the DK can be peeled and los'd until the stack falls off wasting most of the rune cost associated with the stack.

I do agree that NS needs tuning. I also agree that the stacks should be limited as there needs to be a cap. This not only prevents exploitation in certain situations where NS becomes incredibly powerful but also increases a DK's skill cap. They will have to recognize when to use NS and when to use ScS. However, this has no relevance ion regards to my questions as the absorb seemed to be the primary concern of the persons I spoke with and the reasons behind their issues with NS which appears to be a somewhat common mis-understanding of the mechanic. They are more upset with the ability absorbing their heals than how much it actually absorbs compared to the direct damage alternative (ScS).

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I'll just make a new post since you edited your response after I was done with my own...and it's to late to re-write :)

They are rhetorical because the answer appears rather obvious to me, hence the setup. But when presented to other people I have had issues with their acceptance. Hence me asking how people would respond to others who do not seem to "get it" via numbers/scenarios that make more sense than what I am providing them. I was also wanting to double check to make sure that I am not completely off my rocker too. I am getting old and it is 3:30 AM where I live.

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Did Cataclysm adjust the amount of runic power generated by abilities? I was pretty shocked to see that Obliterate was generating 30 runic power while in Unholy Presence, as I was expecting 15-16.

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Did Cataclysm adjust the amount of runic power generated by abilities? I was pretty shocked to see that Obliterate was generating 30 runic power while in Unholy Presence, as I was expecting 15-16.

It was changed to generate 10RP per rune used. So Obliterate and CotG would indeed make 30 RP.

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