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Nodrak

[Holy]Cataclysm Holy Compendium (4.0.6)

1290 posts in this topic

Echoing what others of said above, the biggest requirement is your DPS, the fight is basically a joke until the 4 minute mark at which point it becomes somewhat taxing, and then the real damage starts at 5 minutes. If your DPSers are good, it should be pretty easy to make him dead before the 5 minute mark with 2 tanks and 7 DPS (World First was with 2 tanks 6 DPS and they made it worse gear at around 5:20). If you can't make it before timeloop (or very shortly after) I wouldn't recommend even trying.

That said, I'm not sure why'd skip picking up blue buff unless the healing is simply so taxing that you don't have time to go pick it up (in which case you need to tweak your positioning).

First, just casts per second:

WITHOUT BLUE:

103% (Speed of Light) * 109% (Judgements of the Pure) * 105% (Wrath of Air) * ~108% (Haste from gear) = 127.3% haste

2.5 second HR cast / 1.273 = 1.964 second cast

1 second / 1.964 second cast   = 0.509 casts per second


WITH BLUE:

103% (Speed of Light) * 109% (Judgements of the Pure) * 105% (Wrath of Air) * ~108% (Haste from gear) * 175% (Source of Magic) = 222.8% haste

2.5 second HR cast / 2.228 = 1.122 second cast

1 second / 1.122 second cast = 0.891 casts per second


0.891 casts per second / 0.509 casts per second = 1.750%, or 75% HPS increase (as you would expect)

Now % HPS increase from hot ticks (tick values calculated from one of my spreadsheets, mastery included, assuming 6 targets but it's irrelevant):

HR Direct = 7484

HR HoT = 1121


No buff:

7484 direct + (4 * 1121 HoT) = 11,968

7484 direct + (9 * 1121 HoT) = 17,573


17573 / 11968 = 1.468% or 46.8% HPS increase

Multiplying the two together:
1.75 * 1.468 = 2.570 or 257.0%

So blue would be superior to red's 200% healing done.

On the subject of statweights, I did some calculations for how to reforge for healing this on my paladin by using my spreadsheet that calculates statweights based on healing breakdown (the breakdown used was healing distribution from the "no overhealing" section of the fight extracted from a kill on World of Logs).

Here is a snapshot of the calculation I did for Ultraxion weights.

I don't see them varying much between solo healing tens and 5 healing 25s, the biggest difference would be that you'd have to support the tanks more with some DLs, so that might change things slightly.

The sheet doesn't calculate haste because that's outside of the realm I wanted it to handle. However, I did do some seperate haste calculations. The idea of the whole thing is to optimize around the hardest part of the fight: the part where there is no overhealing. During this part, you're likely to have Divine Favor and Bloodlust up for a very significant portion of it in which your Holy Radiance will be GCD capped, so haste's only value is for additional ticks.

Explanation is in the spoiler, but basically if you can reforge out of less than the amount of crit listed to get to the haste threshold then it's worth taking.

If you take a look at

this tick spreadsheet maintained by Keldion you'll see that additional ticks occur at (assuming the 438 & 560 is achieved in any set of gear) at 1541 for no bloodlust, and 1732 and 2843 haste with bloodlust. Assuming (based on previous calculations) crit is your secondary of choice not including haste, the thresholds are worth taking if you can achieve them by sacrificing equal to or less than the corresponding amount of crit rating.

All of the Crit equivalence values are below the rating required, so that means that the tick is worth going for only if Haste rating required minus Gain's equivalence in crit rating is less than the minimum amount of haste your gear has when you reforge it all off. In my case, I had around 800 haste with all haste reforged off, so it is then worth taking the first two ticks in the table, but not the third (I'm guessing the third is never worth taking).

Enough said, here's a table:

[TABLE]Tick|Haste rating required|% HPS Gain|Gain's equivalence in Crit rating|Column B - Column D (see spoiler for relevance)

10th tick under Divine Favor|1,541|6.379%|1,144|397

13th tick under Divine Favor + Bloodlust|1,732|5.354%|960|772

14th tick under Divine Favor + Bloodlust|2,843|5.082%|911|1,932

[/TABLE]

So the stat weights I use for this fight (To be used in Ask Mr. Robot, if that's your thing) are as follows:

[TABLE]Stat | Value | Hard Cap

Intellect | 1.50 |

Spell Power | 1.00 |

Crit rating | 1.08 |

Mastery rating | 0.51 |

Haste rating | 1.40* | Highest tick you found applicable according to last table

Spirit | 1.10* | As much as you need to sustain until blue spawn

[/TABLE]

* means an arbitrary number picked to be better than other stats.

Related Tip: If your raid lusts at the beginning of the fight, you can Heroic Will out before they do so and have a second member do it later in the fight so your healers can benefit from lust when they need it most.

Edit: Blue buff is actually 100% haste, so the math is off in my favor.

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I don't see them varying much between solo healing tens and 5 healing 25s, the biggest difference would be that you'd have to support the tanks more with some DLs, so that might change things slightly.

While the HPS may be similar there is a huge difference as in 25 man you will litterally just be spamming HR while picking up red/blue buff.

Solo healing 10 man heroic absolutely requires you to do some single target healing and without having tried myself I can almost certianly say that you have to use FoL, DL would not be fast enough. This I suspect will also be the reason why keeping red buff is better as it affects your HS and FoL while the blue one would only reduce the mana cost.

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While the HPS may be similar there is a huge difference as in 25 man you will litterally just be spamming HR while picking up red/blue buff.

Solo healing 10 man heroic absolutely requires you to do some single target healing and without having tried myself I can almost certianly say that you have to use FoL, DL would not be fast enough. This I suspect will also be the reason why keeping red buff is better as it affects your HS and FoL while the blue one would only reduce the mana cost.

Under blue buff, DL would have a similar cast time to FoL, heal for more, and mana would of course be a non-issue. I don't see that as a valid argument for Red over Blue.

Edit: Furthermore, the currently top ranked 10m Heroic Ultraxion parse is a Holy Paladin solo heal, and he cast only 6 HL/DL/FoLs the entire fight. I'd wager a couple of those were off the bat when there was little AoE healing to do.

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Under blue buff, DL would have a similar cast time to FoL, heal for more, and mana would of course be a non-issue.

You are correct the blue buff does make DL faster however a FoL with the 100% more healing buff will heal for more than a DL. It seems I also forgot to mention that with the 100% buff LoD will also heal for a lot more.

Whether you chose to keep the red buff or not I think you need to be looking at what kind of gear you are using. If you dont have enough spell power you may struggle by taking the blue buff and if you dont have enough regen you may struggle by keeping the red buff.

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Correct, but with those parameters - most of the resulting videos are still of the fight being duo healed. In fact, I could find only one video of it being done, by Quantum - some obversations:

- He uses the red buff exclusively during the entire encounter.

- Looking at his buffs, he uses Heart of Unliving and DMC: Tsunami, the latter being a bit of a surprise for me personally, although it might be due to loot luck (or lack thereof).

The source video, for reference:

So we do know that it is possible. I'm still curious if this is a niche strategy or truly viable. Does anyone else do it like this? The encounter took 4 minutes 40 seconds, so that means Ultraxion doesn't get the last Unstable buff - this seems to me as a big argument for doing it like this.

Really? I only watched this one you linked but saw more at the "recommended". Using Tsunami for me isn't a surprise, cause trinkets that stack spirit are amazing.

I was wondering the same thing about Ultraxion buffs. Thanks for the information.

Edit: I was searching around the pages a discussion about Ember and Burning meta gems but I didn't found. Can we start a little discussion about it? At my first sight, I see Ember over Burning cause the crit increase could end in the most of the cases in overhealing. But now i'm really in doubt, lol.

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Edit: I was searching around the pages a discussion about Ember and Burning meta gems but I didn't found. Can we start a little discussion about it? At my first sight, I see Ember over Burning cause the crit increase could end in the most of the cases in overhealing. But now i'm really in doubt, lol.

No matter what way you look at it burning is a throughput increase due to the amount of fights that have HR spam periods, even if it's very small.

I'd be very surprised if anyone with decent gear would still take ember, I mean its really hard to use all that mana without doing a bunch of overhealing anyway.

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I'd say it'd be advantageous to take Ember in any situation where you're able to put out the HPS but not able to sustain the mana, even by changing your items and reforging around. In any other case (almost all of the time), I'd use Burning.

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First off, thanks for all the awesome information. The only question I have left reeling in my brain after absorbing most of what is said is pretty stupid and simple.

Would it be better to reforge for the mastery or crit in order to hold statistically through a 6 minute fight? The only reason I ask is because I am in a group where the dps is pretty rough around the edges. I am trying to reason between the two so that I might have a change of deducing some of my repair bill while also affording the group a little more of a chance to stay alive.

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Hey Guys Quick question. Right now I am using heroic Jaws, 2pT12 and 2pT13 and I feel I have to much regen. I am sitting at about 2960 Spirit without any stacks from Heart of the Unliving and feel I should dial some of that back, what is a good place for spirit right now? I have been looking at Rawr and it had been telling me to dump all of my Spirit into crit, which I can do I just don't want to go diving into hard modes without enough spirit. Thanks a bunch

Dadeeps/Zero Coordination/Whisperwind

Heart of the Unliving, Jaws of Defeat, and both 2pT12 with 2pT13 are currently some of the best tools we have for longevity. As for how much longevity you need, it comes down to how comfortable you are with your level of regeneration in the given raid environment, the amount of healers being utilized, healing assignments, play-style, etc. so I can't give any absolute amount of regeneration that is necessary. The best reply I can give is that browsing through armory most holy paladins progressing in heroic DS are sitting around 3000-3500 spirit, so you're definitely in the ballpark especially with those overpowered trinkets.

Be weary of simulations and theory-crafting for healing as healing is reactive and it isn't possible to predict how much unnecessary damage your raid may take by ignoring mechanics or standing in fire or when your tank has horrible RNG and doesn't avoid anything. Most healer sims have some sort of sliding scale with throughput on one side of the spectrum and longevity on the opposite side, try messing around with those kinds of settings before arriving at a conclusion such as "replacing all spirit with crit."

If you really do have so much excess mana and for whatever reason you can't reduce the number of healers in your raid composition then there are plenty of itemization tweaks you could do to trade some longevity for throughput. Looks like you've already done these, but using power torrent instead of heartsong and the burning meta gem instead of the ember meta gem are examples of trading longevity for throughput. A healer can also use caster gear without spirit or hit and reforge a secondary stat to spirit for a small trade-off. I like to use 4pT13 for some encounters where mana isn't tight as well.

This kind of a question all healers ask themselves from time to time as balancing longevity and throughput is crucial although I'm fairly certain once you delve deeper into heroic encounters appropriate for your gear level the excess longevity will be a nice cushion.

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Hey guys, I was just wondering... could we start talking about HM Spine + Madness stat weights?

We have progressed pretty far into 25m HM Spine over the last 2 weeks and I have been trying out some stats. My most effective strategy so far has been switching my beacon onto the next debuff and healing the other most recent debuff with a combination of FoL, DLs and HLs, depending on CDs and mana (debuffs come out 2 at a time). It seems to be performing awesomely.

I was originally using haste, as I felt that I could maintain a consistent level of mana, meaning that I would get more casts that would heal for 100% effectiveness (the slower my casts, the faster the debuff fades, the higher the chance that my heal will be an overheal).

Now that we are getting past the 3rd roll, I am starting to feel that a combination of roughly 1000-1500 haste, then full crit/spirit is the best bet. My reasons should be obvious, but Spirit means I can spam the stronger heals more consistently, and Crit is currently doing so great because I am healing those with the full debuff most often, meaning that crit will almost always be entirely effective.

Anyway, what are you guys thinking? I am currently rocking (completely unbuffed):

7508 int

3300 spirit (+ 880 from 403 heart)

1087 haste (+410 Seal)

23.28 crit

10.39 mastery

+ Maw, though I also have 410 Vagaries of time, though I don't believe this is worth it (though it could be?)

I am no good with maths and statistics, but I can understand them, so if anyone could offer some advice that would be great.

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I saw some people reforging to Mastery for Spine, but I have no idea why this is worth it. Wish someone could explain.

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I would assume for spine, mastery would help keeping people who have the debuff from dying as they cannot be healed up untill the debuff comes off. Assuming you do not have a disc priest, it would be beneficial to have at least one healer provide a shield mechanic on those who cannot be healed up with a debuff on them, I wonder how many paladins do this with a disc priest also in the raid. If you already have a disc priest, reforging crit seems like a pretty good idea which I have not tried yet.

I hate to go back to the solo healing H Ultrax again, but I am about to try solo healing heroic Ultraxion this week and was wondering why the healer in the video mentioned earlier uses DMC tsunami over H jaws of defeat. Has anybody done math on the two to determine if jaws of defeat is in fact a better mana return over the course of the fight? I am just trying to maximize my potential on the fight, and have both trinkets available to me. I apologize if this has already been discussed.

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I would assume for spine, mastery would help keeping people who have the debuff from dying as they cannot be healed up untill the debuff comes off. Assuming you do not have a disc priest, it would be beneficial to have at least one healer provide a shield mechanic on those who cannot be healed up with a debuff on them, I wonder how many paladins do this with a disc priest also in the raid. If you already have a disc priest, reforging crit seems like a pretty good idea which I have not tried yet.

I hate to go back to the solo healing H Ultrax again, but I am about to try solo healing heroic Ultraxion this week and was wondering why the healer in the video mentioned earlier uses DMC tsunami over H jaws of defeat. Has anybody done math on the two to determine if jaws of defeat is in fact a better mana return over the course of the fight? I am just trying to maximize my potential on the fight, and have both trinkets available to me. I apologize if this has already been discussed.

Actually for Spine, a haste or a crit build would be far better than a mastery one because they both favour our Beacon of Light transfer, whereas mastery doesn't. In Spine you're supposed to Beacon swap for all fight and it's our number one healing skill for it. So practically haste equals to more heals over the course of the fight, giving us more beacon transfers to debuffed players. Crit, also makes a huge difference in Spine, despite being an RNG related stat. Higher crit gives you a better chance to heal a debuffed person for double the heal and transfer a larger amount through Beacon to another player. So, i don't think that mastery can be a viable choice for Spine in particular, although in my opinion and for the majority of the fights, mastery can be a very good stat to invest on.

For Ultraxion Hc now, i assume that you will be taking the red orb only. Although mana should be an issue when you solo heal this fight, i would advise to stick to Jaws because it combines throughoutput through intellect and mana efficiency through its use effect. For fights dragging on to more than 5-6 minutes, DMC pulls ahead in terms of mana returns, but assuming that you're gonna have enough dps to beat it before the 5 minute mark, Jaws is a better option. Don't forget that you can also ask for an external mana cooldown if your group can bring that.

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I know I've been using crit as well fpr Spine, we are also getting to the third tendon and mana is a big concern in that fight. Crit helps clear the debuffs faster and Mastery doesn't so I never seriously would consider Mastery, since I am on searing duty the entire fight.

Now, if we didn't have a disc priest to shield and I was HR'ing more, I would definitely consider Mastery. With the HP debuff that is going out, shields are useful. It seems to me to depend on your assignment and healing team, whether you're using beacon/directly healing the searing or whether you can afford to stick to HR most of the time.

Looking at heroic madness, I've noticed people advocating Mastery to conserve mana for the latter half of the fight. That's what I will be trying. If anyone is reforging for Haste instead on that fight I'd be interested in hearing your experience with that.

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I run full mastery on Spine instead of crit simply because we don't have a disc priest. I find it really useful as the Amalgamation is doing its pulse aoe or during a roll to spam people on low health with the debuff to keep them alive for those short (10s max?) periods.

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