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Nooska

[Cataclysm] Beast Mastery (4.3)

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I have tested this yesterday, because we need a 4% phys. dmg. taken debuff substitute in our raids and it seems that Ravager's Ravage ability is still suffering from diminishing returns and so is not able to keep it up 100% of the time. The down time is about 30s every cycle actually.

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Great thanks for the swift reply there. I've come up with another query in the meantime however ^^

There still seems to be some disagreement in the wider online community about whether haste or mastery is stronger, so I wanted to throw my ten cents in here. This is deliberately rough theorycrafting, the model below is intended to be a demonstration of why haste is stronger, not a quantitive analysis of how much stronger. As you'll see though, the strength of the result seems to indicate that in this case, crude is good enough to prove the point:

My assumptions:

40% of our damage comes from our pet.

60% of our damage comes from non-instant cast abilites (the other 40% that I'm excluding here is made up of arcane shot, kill command and kill shot)

Given these assumptions, we can show roughly how much benefit we get per rating (not %) of mastery and haste:

For mastery: 0.4 * 0.017 / 180 = 0.0000378 (that's % of our total damage from pet * the 1.7% bonus to this per 1% mastery / number of rating needed for 1% mastery)

For haste: 0.6 * 0.01 / 128 = 0.0000469 (that's % of our damage from non-instant abilites * the 1% bonus to damage from these per 1% haste / number of rating needed for 1% haste)

The end figures themselves are pretty meaningless *except* in their ratio. As you can see you're looking at about 25% more benefit point for point from haste, and that's excluding the secondary benefit of more focus, which in this case we can exclude because it in fact strengthens the case for haste being stronger.

As I said above, the model is crude and the numbers being used are only approximations (though based on good, substantial parses of in game data) - but because of the sheer strength of the result we can be confident that even an advanced model will tell us the same thing (that haste is stronger), even if it gives a different result for exactly how much stronger haste is. You would expect an advanced model to differ no more than 20-25% from a crude one assuming both models are fundamentally unflawed, and in this case that is substantially less than the difference that would be needed to begin to make it arguable that mastery could be stronger.

I'd love some feedback on this, because from my point of view it's solidly conclusive but it's easy to miss something obvious when working on a very simplified model.

Just one thing. Haste affects pet to? (from first post, 100%) Either I'm still drunk or I don't get it. You only use 60% portion of damage (hunter) for haste calc not 100% (hunter+pet)?

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Just one thing. Haste affects pet to? (from first post, 100%) Either I'm still drunk or I don't get it. You only use 60% portion of damage (hunter) for haste calc not 100% (hunter+pet)?

Not all the hunters damage is increased by haste - Kill Command, Arcane Shot and Serpent Sting are not affected by haste.

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Yes I get that.

40% damage = pet attacks (modified by mastery and white also by haste)

60% damage = our white, and hasted shots (modified by haste)

What I'm asking is: How can you compare haste to mastery if you skip the part where haste also modifies pet, not just our hasted attacks?

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Yes I get that.

40% damage = pet attacks (modified by mastery and white also by haste)

60% damage = our white, and hasted shots (modified by haste)

What I'm asking is: How can you compare haste to mastery if you skip the part where haste also modifies pet, not just our hasted attacks?

Firstly the assumptions were a very simple model, and has been acknowledged to not show what it seemed to show.

Secondly, as I pointed out the results weren't useful as such - not because of the ratios, but because the conclusion they were trying to support was that haste was better than mastery. The conclusion would be true if haste scaled us linearly at all times, which it doesn't as we are constrained by hard cooldowns and focus more than casttime.

Right now I am not quite understanding which way you want to go, your previous post had me believing you were on board with the conclusions I have drawn so far (in regards to the first post), while in the quoted post you seem to want to place an even higher value on haste, which way is it? I am only asking because it will be easier to provide an understandable answer if I know what your assumption is.

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What seemed strange(wrong) to me was that, while comparing haste and mastery, technophebe didn't account for haste to benefit hunter and pet(but just hunter). Thus lowering value of haste. Witch would indicate that I want to put bigger value on haste.

Plus haste influences far to many things to do it simple, faster pet frenzy stacks, more hunter focus trough invigoration, more pet focus trough Go for the Throat etc.. But that's not what got my attention initially.

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Plus haste influences far to many things to do it simple, faster pet frenzy stacks, more hunter focus trough invigoration, more pet focus trough Go for the Throat etc.. But that's not what got my attention initially.

Of those mentioned, only GftT is affected by haste. Pet frenzy stacks and invigoration are predicated on pet basic attacks, which have a hard cooldown of 3 seconds. GftT is better served by crit than by haste, because 1% more crit means 1% more GftT procs (out of all the shost, crit or hit), while 1% haste just means 1% more shots, or crit percentage percentage more GftT procs (at 20% crit its 0.2% more GftT per 1% haste). All the things you mention are predicated, and vastly better served by, crit, not haste.

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To be fair, Sapa (or anyone else) wasn't suggesting that haste was better than crit, so there's no reason to hammer home the point that GftT is better served by crit than the other stats. As between haste and mastery, haste has some effect on GftT and mastery has absolutely none, so it makes sense to factor that in when comparing mastery vs. haste.

Frenzy and Invigoration are unaffected by either, as you mentioned. (If haste increases pet regen then there is an outside possibility that it could lead to more frenzy stacks if for some reason the pet doesn't have enough focus to use it on cooldown, but that probably wouldn't be worth modeling even if true).

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With the FD overvaluing haste (cause its simulated with you standing still) it wants me to have around crazy haste numbers before crit becomes more valuable. There are short random intervals where increasing haste by 10-20 will shortly make its value way below mastery and other times its above agility. O_o

Anywho what BM hunters want from our cobra shot cast time is different from SV Hunters (who want the 1.66 cast time to fit 3 cobras per Explosive Shot CD) for a short interval to fire off arcane shots, correct? With Focus Fire shouldn't we require less haste than SV would? Or does the faster casts allow us a definite window to cast out arcane shots before KC is active again?

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With the FD overvaluing haste (cause its simulated with you standing still) it wants me to have around 1350 haste before crit becomes more valuable.

Now what BM hunters want from our cobra shot cast time is different from SV Hunters (who want the 1.66 cast time to fit 3 cobras per Explosive Shot CD) correct? With Focus Fire shouldn't we require less haste? Or does the faster casts allow us a definite window to cast out arcane shots before KC is active again?

Also T11 4 piece would allow BM hunters even less need for haste, right?

Eventually, if the amount of haste is possible in later tiers, you think sims will value us to get more haste so, that on top of FF, we could eventually squeeze in 4 cobras per KC CD?

Yes, as BM you care differently about haste than as SV. As SV you cannot use Arcane Shot every rotation because of focus starvation. As BM that problem doesn't exist in practice. As BM you don't really want to delay KC, so that gives you a 6 second rotation. And Arcane Shot does more damage than a Cobra Shot and scales better from RAP, so you will never get to a point where CoS becomes better than AS if you can spare the focus. These things taken together means you want to cast 1 Arcane Shot per rotation, leaving 4 seconds to cast CoS. To fit in an extra Cobra Shot you need enough haste to get the casttime down to 1.33(...) equaling a total of 50% haste. With full FF, 3 points in pathing, WF/HP/IT that translates to 1937 hasterating without 4t11 - and ~500 hasterating with 4t11 (provided Female Dwarf is modelling 4t11 correctly, which I don't know to a certainty as of this moment). At this point you will have squeezed 1 more CoS into your 6 second rotation.

The next question is, will 1937 (or ~500) rating points give more damage than 1 additional CoS per 6 second rotation if spent on crit or mastery? I will look at crit because that is the highest rated secondary stat.

I will use the same profile I used for the stat weightings in the first post; It isn't born with 4t11 so it will do nicely for the best case scenario for haste adding 1 more CoS. I won't subtract any points in the custom adjustment to avoid hitting any lower breakpoints for any stat influencing the result, and I will add rating to hit 1940 to be sure there aren't any rounding 'errors' causing the 3rd CoS to not get in.

As the set is born with / left with 689 hasterating, I will hand add 1251 rating points to haste and then to crit.

1) Adding 1251 Haste rating = 22,597.58 DPS (13,324.24 hunter, 9,273.34 pet). It also gives a stat weight of 0.476 dps per haste point and 0.878 dps per crit point.

2) Adding 1251 Crit rating = 22,512.82 DPS (13,379.08 hunter, 9,133.74 pet). this gives a stat weighting of 0.505 dps per haste point and 0.833 dps per crit point.

Seeing that the hunters dps increased and the pets decreased when using crit instead of haste, I feel I need to try mastery as well.

3) Adding 1251 Mastery rating = 22,179.06 DPS (12,729.14 hunter, 9,449.92 pet). Clearly mastery isn't better than crit or haste when adding the block of rating.

Drawing a conclusion, if you could get to the magic haste number in one go, it would be better than having it all as crit, though it is only a 0.4% increase in dps over the crit, so I will stick with the advice of stacking crit as secondary stat and ignoring haste / reforging it to crit>mastery because crit benefits you every point, haste does not. The very very slight increase in value of haste when using this large a block and seeing no real benefit over the baked in haste at lower amounts of hasterating means that haste will mostly be wasted. During RF with the above buffs (still not 4t11) CoS will be at 1 second casttime and you can fit in 3-4 per rotation during RF (3 being a rotation with 2 AS due to increased focus regen allowing for it). During BL it will reduce the casting time to slightly over 1 second, allowing for the same 3-4 CoS with a very slight delaying of KC.

4t11 gives 1 more CoS automatically at the inborn haste amount of an ilvl 372 set (or ~400 dps / 2% increase from just the setbonus), and can easily do it with an ilvl 359 set, where it will propably be easy to just not reforge all the haste to hit the magic number.

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Isn't there another breakpoint at 1.5s, where you can fit an extra GCD into each rotation (though not an extra CoS)? It's hard to tell how much of a clear DPS gain that extra GCD is, but it's got to help somewhere, right?

I'm still not sure about bothering to adjust your rotation much for KC at all. FD shows very little gain for me over removing KC from my rotation completely. That's with a bunch of talent points and a prime glyph dedicated to it. Maybe as Mastery gets higher (despite reforging out of it at every turn) it will become a clear win over AS spam?

Is anyone seeing a significant (>1-2%) DPS drop in removing KC completely from their FD rotation? I'd probably still use it during BW.

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Are you excluding of KC numbers from the current patch or reflecting FD's PTR numbers?

But how is your setup? Instead of the KC glyph I'm guessing your using the with SS glyph. Though I doubt you can change much in talents.

I am seeing a dps loss from the excluding of KC using the PTR, but maybe that's just my gear.

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Isn't there another breakpoint at 1.5s, where you can fit an extra GCD into each rotation (though not an extra CoS)? It's hard to tell how much of a clear DPS gain that extra GCD is, but it's got to help somewhere, right?

I'm still not sure about bothering to adjust your rotation much for KC at all. FD shows very little gain for me over removing KC from my rotation completely. That's with a bunch of talent points and a prime glyph dedicated to it. Maybe as Mastery gets higher (despite reforging out of it at every turn) it will become a clear win over AS spam?

Is anyone seeing a significant (>1-2%) DPS drop in removing KC completely from their FD rotation? I'd probably still use it during BW.

KC on the PTR hits noticably hard and shouldn't be excluded. On live, you're right, it's not a massive difference. The damage per focus between the 2 is really close, even with BM getting 20%~ (depending on your mastery) more damage on KC than other specs. For surv & MM, arcanes might actually hit harder, even though they cost 15 less focus.

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While AS and KC aren't greatly different in DPF, what matters over the course of a fight is DPS.

Using FemaleDwarf, taking the normal setup I use for theorycrafting (the stat derivation settings), and doing only 3 steps; 1) Remove KC from the priority list. 2) Remove KC from the "save focus for" and 3) disable CK as a "wait shot". I show a dps loss of 7.3%. That is significant.

In addition to FD tests, simple logic dictates that as long as KC is more DPS than AS, it will be worth using as long as CoS and AS are as close as they are by simple virtue of unloading that damage faster, thus giving you more time to fire more CoS or AS depending on your focus income.

On the breakpoint at 1.5 second casttime of CoS; yes it is there in theory, but haste enough for 1 more gcd does not give us focus enough for an additional AS per rotation (not enough extra focus regen through haste), and while it will be a marginal benefit in those rotations where you have enough fcus for another AS, the budget spent on getting you there would be better spent on crit or mastery, meaning the threshold exists, but is not worth going for.

If we want to talk about casttime, I think the one to aim for is the same as SV, 1.67 sec casttime so we can fit 3 CoS between each KC without delaying it, for those cases where we want to build up focus or are focus starved - but with FF, we should be there with the baked in and unavoidable haste, so not a point to look at or worry about.

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Since we can now effectively say we will aquire a 10% base AP buff, as well as better AP scaling on our two most powerful shots (above the 10%), I see the agility spread (ratio of productivity compared to other stats) becoming even further skewed.

Beyond that, I was wondering your theories on reducing points out of Sic' EM for Pathing or ISS. I cant seem to come up with an accurate number for theorycrafting pet focus/ damage. Im a little bit concerned about the terminology of the word "ranged" as well in Pathing and was wondering if this means the effect is limited in scope compared to the base state we get from gear.

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Im leveling a hunter atm and would really like to paly the BM aspect eventhough Survival currently outdps BM ... So ive heard. I wonder if the tweaks to BM and Survival in patch 4.0.6 will make BM more viable ... but anyways .. I have a question:

I've read the posts here on EJ, on Tankspot and the public forums but im having a hard time making out what pet to be using. I know the damage is equal now but the buffs just isn't.

First off this char is an alt and obviously wont me attending raids in the nearby future .. but I still wanna optimize my performance in heroics.

I know Chimeras has nice use of frost breath in hc's, and as for now im in doubt whether my second pet should be a spirit beast for the str/agi buff (and the small healing hot) .. or a devilsaur for 5% crit.

As far as I can see crit is superior especially because of Killing Streak.

The question is now ... How much crit will the 549 agility from Roar of Courage add for a level 85 hunter?

If 549 Agility > 5% crit there is no doubt for me really.

Secondly .. Do the pet get the 549 agility + strength as well? and does the strength part work as AP for a pet as well as for all other melee dps?

If you got an even different idea about what pet to use for 5 mand BM runs .. please let me know.

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For pet choice outside of raids, the same rule applies. Look at whatother players are around you, and what buffs you have covered. A cat or a wolf will probably be the best buffs for your own dps apart from the shale spiders 5% stats - but the shale spider being a tenacity pet means its probably not a good choice if its to up your own performance. If you run with your guild, you can quickly get an overview of what buffs will most likely be and not be present, and have your 5 active pets chosen for that. If you solo run through the dungeon finder, have a bit of variety - and my personal recommendation is to have either a shale spider or a turtle as one of the 5 - whip it out if the tank dies and you can often save the day if the healer notices and starts healing the pet instead (just remember to have it specced for taunt).

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Thanks for the reply Nooska. As BM id be going with Exotic pets I guess ? :-) Meaning ill take devilsaur / Spirit beast over cat / wolf.

Have you done any math on the agi/str vs crit buffs from pets?

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Basically it comes down to 535 agility & str vs ~900 crit rating (5% crit). For personal DPS, agility wins, hands down. If you were in a group full of casters and no other melee/hunters, wolf would probably win for group DPS assuming all members are equal DPS, but don't forget the cat buff gives the tanks a significant amount of dodge & parry.

Personally, when I'm forced to pug 5 mans for my daily I'm usually miles ahead of everyone else in DPS, so I use the agility buff even if there's only casters.

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Question... I know DMC:Hurricane is weak for SV because it doesn't proc off enough things. Is the same true for BM? All the tests I have seen have been as SV.

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I haven't seen any numbers either, but I would assume so. It only procs off of cobras & autos for both specs. BM hunters have a lil more haste with focus fire, but we still don't do a ton of attacks like the classes the trinket is usually good for. Rogues hit often with their fast weapons, instant attacks, love for haste & slice 'n dice. Enhance shamans do a lot of hits with their instants, flurry & windfury.

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Question... I know DMC:Hurricane is weak for SV because it doesn't proc off enough things. Is the same true for BM? All the tests I have seen have been as SV.

I think we would see moderately more procs from DMC: Hurricane, simply because BM fires more ArS (which can also proc it) along with the CoS and auto-shots.

The reason SV was interested (as with Enh sham) was because the proc was enhanced by their mastery..

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Ive been battling with this recently. Is there currently any justification to spec BM for raid? Even with the upcoming hunter changes, I don't see BM being on par. Im hoping that I am just overlooking something that is an overall benefit to the raid.

It obviously depends on your raid. Frankly, I have found that in a 10 man virtually every buff your pets can bring is covered by another player. However, BM has it's own buff which is pretty nice. I have played SV since the early days of WotLK and have always enjoyed it. But my Raid Leader recently asked me to explore Beast Mastery because no one in my raid was providing the 3% damage buff brought by Ferocious Inspiration. My own personal loss in dps is more than made up by the overall increase in damage.

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It obviously depends on your raid. Frankly, I have found that in a 10 man virtually every buff your pets can bring is covered by another player. However, BM has it's own buff which is pretty nice. I have played SV since the early days of WotLK and have always enjoyed it. But my Raid Leader recently asked me to explore Beast Mastery because no one in my raid was providing the 3% damage buff brought by Ferocious Inspiration. My own personal loss in dps is more than made up by the overall increase in damage.

I actually made that post prior to implementation of the 10% increase of our passive AP. Based on my PTR tests after the AP increase, the DPS loss from BM is now low enough where I can justify using it as my main raid spec. It would be perfect if we didn't have to rely on a worm for any decent aoe damage.

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Since none of the changes in 4.0.6 impact BM hunters apart from buffs to KS and KC in addition to a general AP buff, I have updated the thread title without changing the content of the first post. No interactions or priorities ahev changed.

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