Hamlet

[Balance] WrathCalcs

969 posts in this topic

Offhand enchant is being nerfed in the next patch to 40 intellect, that's a PTR version we're working on currently. Chaotic gem requirement is being reverted in the PTR too. For the belt socket, I've probably just missed changing the dropdown for the second OO list, I'll sort that out, thanks!

I can add the wrist/glove enchants if anyone really wants it, although why would you use them?

Regarding haste not adding up, remember all haste effects are currently averaged over their duration, the discrepancy is your Witching Hourglass trinket's proc. Intellect is purely what you get from gear on that page.

The forums are showing the last upload as a gif for some reason, I'll reupload tomorrow morning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Offhand enchant is being nerfed in the next patch to 40 intellect, that's a PTR version we're working on currently. Chaotic gem requirement is being reverted in the PTR too. For the belt socket, I've probably just missed changing the dropdown for the second OO list, I'll sort that out, thanks!

I can add the wrist/glove enchants if anyone really wants it, although why would you use them?

Regarding haste not adding up, remember all haste effects are currently averaged over their duration, the discrepancy is your Witching Hourglass trinket's proc. Intellect is purely what you get from gear on that page.

The forums are showing the last upload as a gif for some reason, I'll reupload tomorrow morning.

Thanks for the info. I will check if the discrepancies come from the trinkets.

Sorry, if I am steering up noobish things...but wondering about the formula to calculate SP from INT used in C3: =SUMME(K8:K112)+B3-10

Why is there a linear factor -10?

The Spellpower wrist/gloves enchants were at least on my server at the beginning the only affordable and only slightly worse than 50 haste on the basis that 50 haste translates into 27 Int. (1:0.54) and Int ~ SP on this scale. I consider them as comparable. Am I wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The first 10 base intellect doesn't covert to spellpower, from memory.

I'll add the gloves/bracers enchant in my next update if it'd help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The first 10 base intellect doesn't covert to spellpower, from memory.

I'll add the gloves/bracers enchant in my next update if it'd help.

The first 10 of everythign seem to not benefit your character at all:

10 stra, 10 agi, 10 int, 10 stam, 10 mana (or you could say the first 10 intellect only give you 1 mana each)

Some weird legacy thing probably :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Spellpower wrist/gloves enchants were at least on my server at the beginning the only affordable and only slightly worse than 50 haste on the basis that 50 haste translates into 27 Int. (1:0.54) and Int ~ SP on this scale. I consider them as comparable. Am I wrong?

An SP is really only about 3/4 of an Int, which matters for these comparisons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once again, just throwing up whatever minor changes I've made in the past few days. I don't think it's actually much of anything, but just uploading it because I think Tecton was still going to do some things. I was actually going to put in some more of the random Tot4W loot myself, but it currently can't handle multiple entries with the same ItemID, by the way.

I do want to look at Glyph of Starfire a little. Someone pointed out to me that it's showing a large DPS bump if you select GoSF and "Moonfire on either Eclipse." This reminded me that it's not currently accounting for any clipping that might occur if you actually do both those things, so that has to be fixed. But even still, it shouldn't be that huge an error--it currently assumes only half of Moonfires are extended in that situation (so in other words, effective Moonfire uptime is slightly over 100%, but not by that much). I'm not sure why it's showing an increase of over 1000 DPS if you change Moonfire settings with the Glyph selected, I think there's something else fishy going on. In general, I should look at GoSF more, apparently it's not that far behind to begin with.

WrathCalcs 110121 PTR.xls

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do want to look at Glyph of Starfire a little. Someone pointed out to me that it's showing a large DPS bump if you select GoSF and "Moonfire on either Eclipse." This reminded me that it's not currently accounting for any clipping that might occur if you actually do both those things, so that has to be fixed. But even still, it shouldn't be that huge an error--it currently assumes only half of Moonfires are extended in that situation (so in other words, effective Moonfire uptime is slightly over 100%, but not by that much). I'm not sure why it's showing an increase of over 1000 DPS if you change Moonfire settings with the Glyph selected, I think there's something else fishy going on. In general, I should look at GoSF more, apparently it's not that far behind to begin with.

This got me thinking. Especially with 4 pc T11 causing you to delay your Sunfire/Moonfire refresh to maximize the bonus, Starfire might be a really, really good glyph with 4 pc. I'm currently sick as a dog so I don't know that I'm up for target dummy testing but I know Sunfire/Moonfire combined uptime went down from 95+% uptime pre-4pc rotation to less than 75% uptime post-4pc rotation. ~20% more uptime on Sunfire/Moonfire might get very interesting especially when some of that uptime will be high % chance to crit ticks that occur as you enter the opposite Eclipse.

Reality is it might not get the full uptime benefit especially if you add in movement or the like but I definitely see some real upside to the glyph with 4 pc T11 where previously I saw next to none. Starfire glyph was so far out of my mind as viable that I didn't even think to test the glyph when modifying my rotation for 4 pc. ./sigh

I'll update more once I feel well enough to test the theory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is one thing to consider though Calculated... When you delay the first cast of Moonfire by X seconds, it's only that first Moonfire really "feels" a delay. The time between Moonfires remains a constant*, regardless of when it is cast within the rotation.

Say you cast Moonfire at Time X normally.

With the 4t10 bonus, you would cast it at time X+8, at most to account for the duration of the bonus.

Your next Moonfire would be cast at time Y, and again it would be delayed Y+8 seconds.

We'll call the difference between Moonfires Time Z (the difference between X and Y): Z = X - Y

The difference with the 4t11 bonus: (X+8) - (Y+8), or following the order of operations: X + 8 - Y - 8, or X - Y + 8 - 8

The added time from the 4t11 bonus (in this case 8 seconds) cancels, and you are left with X - Y, which is still Z.

* = There is a slight variation here since the cast time of Wrath is 75% of the cast time of Starfire, however that means that you would actually refresh a Sunfire sooner in the rotation than Moonfire, making the added duration of your Moonfire a bit weaker.

This same principle can be applied to Starfall, which is what I was eluding to earlier. The difference is that Starfall fluctuates with the Lunar buff while Moonfire/Sunfire do not.

Editted to add:

All in all, I'm going to have to revisit this once I manage to get my hands on the 4t11 bonus (my guild is woefully behind sadly). A couple of things I noticed in tests on my own though...

1) If you delay Moonfire/Sunfire application by 2 nuke casts, it lasts into the next Eclipse

2) Sunfire and Moonfire are both extended. Sunfire lasts into Lunar, so it is extended when you start using Starfire. Moonfire is cast right before the end of Lunar, so it is extended in the Pre-Solar phase.

3) With both DoTs getting extended, you end up clipping both at the end of Eclipse, casting either spell immediately following the Wrath/Starfire that ends your Eclipse so that they land during the travel time (even Starfire's travel time is enough to get Moonfire off).

Ultimately, I think it'll probably come down to what happens with this pending Starfall change, but it is nice to know this possibility exists. A few things to consider are:

1) Moonfire/Sunfire will still get the crit bonus from the 4t11 bonus with this setup which could be the major boon here.

2) How will interruptions disrupt the cycle, particularly in the Pre-Lunar phase which needs to be passed through quickly enough in order to extend Sunfire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do want to look at Glyph of Starfire a little. Someone pointed out to me that it's showing a large DPS bump if you select GoSF and "Moonfire on either Eclipse." This reminded me that it's not currently accounting for any clipping that might occur if you actually do both those things, so that has to be fixed. But even still, it shouldn't be that huge an error--it currently assumes only half of Moonfires are extended in that situation (so in other words, effective Moonfire uptime is slightly over 100%, but not by that much). I'm not sure why it's showing an increase of over 1000 DPS if you change Moonfire settings with the Glyph selected, I think there's something else fishy going on. In general, I should look at GoSF more, apparently it's not that far behind to begin with.

I think the dps bump we get while clipping moonfire/sunfire on each eclipse in combination with the glyph of Starfire is largely due to the way refreshing dots works right now. By constantly clipping, we gain a significant amount of extra ticks if we are just below a haste breakpoint, since we never let it fall off.

Of course clipping it lower its damage per cast, but as it is extended by starfire, it is still more damage per cast than a regular moonfire/sunfire.

2) How will interruptions disrupt the cycle, particularly in the Pre-Lunar phase which needs to be passed through quickly enough in order to extend Sunfire.

Yeah, that's the major issue I foresee in any non-patchwerk-like encounter, because if we can't extend Sunfire in Lunar we loose half the efficiency of the glyph.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apologies if I'm asking a stupid question here, buuuut;

I couldn't quite figure out how to remove a reforging completely from an item - there doesn't appear to be a blank option in the drop-down and the value is calculated. Feel like I'm overlooking something really obvious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can just delete the cell (i.e. select the cell with the dropdown menu and press "delete"). We should add a blank menu option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Felt well enough to put in at least a little time on dummies today and initial results point to confirmation of my suspicion. Starfire glyph definitely seems to be outperforming Wrath on a stand-and-turret rotation using 4 pc T11.

First log is with Wrath glyph:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Things of interest are the 73.3% combined uptime of Moonfire/Sunfire due to delaying refresh to get max benefit from 4 pc bonus. I was really fighting to keep my sustained above 18k on this.

Second log is with Starfire glyph:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Things of interest are 93.7% combined uptime of Moonfire/Sunfire due to Starfire glyph. I was teasing 19k sustained most of this.

You absolutely will clip your Sunfire/Moonfire on occasion -- basically you end up refreshing a within Eclipse Sunfire/Moonfire when the next cast will take you out of the eclipse (usually around 5 energy in Solar, somewhere around 15 - 20 energy in Lunar). You will overwrite some reasonable duration at that point but the key is to sustain the uptime while never casting a non-Eclipsed moonfire/sunfire. I'll probably put a revised T11 rotation video out once I get more time on it and confirm this isn't a fluke.

At the moment though, subbing in Starfire did about what I expected and that is a good, good thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's definitely not a fluke, of that much I can assure you. I was messing around with it myself. I don't have the 4t11 (I don't even have 2t11 yet), so my gear is substantially behind. Regardless, I was able to post consistent numbers between 14.5k and 15k using the Starfire glyph when before I was topping out at around 13.8k with Starsurge. I was more than a little shocked at the amazing gain in damage, but I find the rotation to be a little easier to screw up, particularly if you mis-time your Sunfire (although with more haste the margin of error will come down).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe the very favorable WC estimate isn't that erroneous after all then. I should look at it again and see what's really going on. When you guys are testing out GoSF on a dummy, are all of your Moonfires Eclipsed, NG'd, and extended?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah basically we can keep a 100% uptime on eclipsed, NG'd moonfire/sunfire. It never drops if we don't screw up. IS uptime will be lower however since we need to wait for eclipse to cast it if we want the NG on sunfire/moonfire refresh.

Sunfire /Moonfire will be extend to its full duration each time, but we will clip it significantly (2-8sec) since we have to cast it right after the last spell in eclipse no matter what.

Technically, it allows us to reach a soft spot in moonfire/sunfire usage, when we cast it only once by eclipse and it nevers fall off. We may reach a point when we have enough haste to do it without it and ofcourse the value of the glyph will drop the more we approach this point.

It should be quite easy to set a dps value to it, since it would be the dps value of applying eclipse status/NG status to every Moonfire/Sunfire that didn't have it in a standard rotation.

Edit : It could bump the value of mastery a bit, actually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Um, IS doesn't change at all. You will cast IS at the beginning of every Eclipse, just like normal.

The only thing that changes are the placement within the Eclipse cycle of Moonfire and Sunfire and their durations (due to extensions). A good rule of thumb for calculating the uptime of Moonfire and Sunfire is to take the total time for Pre-Lunar and Lunar Eclipse for Sunfire and the total time for Pre-Solar and Solar Eclipse for Moonfire. That might seem counter-intuitive (it is to an extent), but you reapply these DoTs at the very end of Eclipse instead of the beginning, clipping whichever DoT is currently active.

To answer your question directly Hamlet, all Moonfires/Sunfires are extended, cast while NG is up, and while Eclipse is active. The extension, however, is not a flat 9 seconds because of the clipping.

Edit to add:

Pulling some numbers from Wrathcalcs and applying it to what I've stated above...

I get about 3 or 4 extra ticks of Moonfire/Sunfire per application with this glyph, which is equivalent to about 25,320 to 33,760 damage per Eclipse cycle at no extra cost in time. With a rotation length of 44.28 seconds, that would be between 572 and 762 additional DPS. When you add in the fact that I don't have the tier bonus yet, it's not hard to see how that number can jump to even higher amounts.

I still think WrathCalcs is somehow overestimating the Starfire bonus (1369 DPS from the glyph, and -27.09 MP5 somehow?), but it's definitely higher than the other glyphs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Working on it now, I've added blank spaces for reforging so you can select from the menu rather than deleting, if that suits you better.

Next target is multiple items with the same item ID!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Um, IS doesn't change at all. You will cast IS at the beginning of every Eclipse, just like normal.

The only thing that changes are the placement within the Eclipse cycle of Moonfire and Sunfire and their durations (due to extensions). A good rule of thumb for calculating the uptime of Moonfire and Sunfire is to take the total time for Pre-Lunar and Lunar Eclipse for Sunfire and the total time for Pre-Solar and Solar Eclipse for Moonfire. That might seem counter-intuitive (it is to an extent), but you reapply these DoTs at the very end of Eclipse instead of the beginning, clipping whichever DoT is currently active.

To answer your question directly Hamlet, all Moonfires/Sunfires are extended, cast while NG is up, and while Eclipse is active. The extension, however, is not a flat 9 seconds because of the clipping.

Edit to add:

Pulling some numbers from Wrathcalcs and applying it to what I've stated above...

I get about 3 or 4 extra ticks of Moonfire/Sunfire per application with this glyph, which is equivalent to about 25,320 to 33,760 damage per Eclipse cycle at no extra cost in time. With a rotation length of 44.28 seconds, that would be between 572 and 762 additional DPS. When you add in the fact that I don't have the tier bonus yet, it's not hard to see how that number can jump to even higher amounts.

I still think WrathCalcs is somehow overestimating the Starfire bonus (1369 DPS from the glyph, and -27.09 MP5 somehow?), but it's definitely higher than the other glyphs.

Just wanted to add that I did some tests for GoSF. It seems the tooltip is wrong and it actualy is more like: +4s, up to +12s max

E.g.:

Haste: 15.67% + MKA

Expected base ticks:

11 = math.floor( (2*9) / ( math.floor(2 / 1.1567 / 1.05 * 1000 + 0.5)/1000) +0.5)
Dead Winds is from Gale of Shadows trinket, stacks up on dot ticks. baseticks67ex.jpg 11 ticks as expected Extending with SF: Just as a note, extending recalculates the tickhaste
16 = math.floor( (2*9 +3*3) / ( math.floor(2 / 1.1567 / 1.05 * 1000 + 0.5)/1000) +0.5)
extendticksb77l.jpg
18 = math.floor( (2*9 +3*4) / ( math.floor(2 / 1.1567 / 1.05 * 1000 + 0.5)/1000) +0.5)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It could be that a GoSF just sees how many ticks you would get from a 3s MF (2 ticks for any normal amount of haste) and adds that to the MF. At 67% haste, that would increase to 3 ticks.

It could also be that GoSF sees how many ticks you would get from adding 3s to the current duration (starting after the next tick). That would typically be two additional ticks, but in conjunction with a large change in Haste, it might be more than that (or even a reduction in the number of ticks).

It could also be that Blizz just decided that adding 2 ticks was easier to implement (and usually correct) and did that.

If GoSF updates MF haste, you probably want the third SF to complete with NG. That would argue against using IS shortly after Eclipse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Felt well enough to do some more target dummy testing as well as put together a quick video that shows the rotation modifications made to accommodate Starfire glyph. That said, I posted the update here (http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t110353-balance_cataclysm_release_4_0_6_guide_now_op/p5/#post1850238) because although the spark that started this investigation began in the Wrathcalcs thread, the general purpose Balance thread is probably the better home for it. Hamlet created a separate Wrathcalcs topic for a reason methinks :)

EDIT: As a final note that is somewhat relevant here though, my dot timers are power auras that show out to the hundredths decimal and you can get a very real sense of the variation of how much time is added with each Starfire hit. It is definitely not a consistent 3 seconds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After doing some tests, I believe I've come to the conclusion that the tick rate is recalculated when Starfire lands.

Duing my first run through, I would cast Moonfire, then immediately cast 3 Starfires. The result was an astounding 21 ticks (normally, I would only get 11 ticks). I then ran a test by casting Moonfire then delaying the Starfires until after Nature's Grace expired. The result was only 18 ticks. Here's where things begin to get extremely tricky though... When I cast IS first (to get Nature's Grace up) then immediately extended the Moonfires, I wound up with only 20 ticks of Moonfire, instead of 21. I didn't bother waiting until after Nature's Grace expired to see the result, I have no doubts that it would have been a lower tick count.

So here's my major question. I've proven that the tick rate is recalculated when the spell lands, but then how is it possible to gain an extra tick by extending with Nature's Grace active, when it was not active during the application of the ability? The only conclusion that I can reach is that it recalculates duration and tick rate based on the remaining duration and the tick rate of the spell already active.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Felt well enough to do some more target dummy testing as well as put together a quick video that shows the rotation modifications made to accommodate Starfire glyph. That said, I posted the update here (http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t110353-balance_cataclysm_release_4_0_6_guide_now_op/p5/#post1850238) because although the spark that started this investigation began in the Wrathcalcs thread, the general purpose Balance thread is probably the better home for it. Hamlet created a separate Wrathcalcs topic for a reason methinks :)

EDIT: As a final note that is somewhat relevant here though, my dot timers are power auras that show out to the hundredths decimal and you can get a very real sense of the variation of how much time is added with each Starfire hit. It is definitely not a consistent 3 seconds.

Considering that a) the tick interval depends on haste and b) DoTs now always seem to end with their last tick, it was to be expected that the glyph wouldn't be giving a consistent additional 3 seconds. From a design perspective it doesn't even make sense for the glyph to still add 3 seconds now that MF ticks every 2 seconds so I expect it either to be an oversight from when they reduced the MF tick interval or an estimation to make the tooltip less complex.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.