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Symphonia

DPS Warrior BiS Discussion

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I'd get rid of the yellow gems in the legs. The socket bonus of 20 haste is not worth it, even considering haste .4 and crit .67 of the strength value which are probably high estimates aswell at least for this tier.

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Things I'm not sure of:

  • Is there a better way to reforge and optimize expertise? I'd like to get as close to possible to a perfect 26 but currently .74 over the cap.

I managed to get the expertise closer to 26 by:

  1. Reforge [iTEM]Crossfire Carbine[/iTEM] Expertise to Hit Rating.
  2. Reforge [iTEM]Rage of Ages[/iTEM] Mastery to Expertise.
  3. Reforge [iTEM]Earthen Legplates[/iTEM] Mastery to Expertise.
  4. Reforge the Expertise on [item]Heart of Rage[/item] to Hit Rating.

The end result is the following stat changes:

  • Hit Chance: 21.04% to 22.25%
  • Crit Chance: 20.52% to 19.63%
  • Mastery: 11.61 to 11.77 (no effective change)

What are your thoughts on this? For the High Hit build it merely adds a percentage of hit at the cost of a percentage of crit. I don't have a sim to crunch the numbers at this time, if someone would be gracious enough to run this model through then we might have a contender.

That said, however, with the current expectations of a low hit/high crit build then that percentage may be better spent on the crit than the hit. With that, one could always just reforge HoR to crit as opposed to hit rating. Doing so would actually bring the percentages to the exact whole values that we see on the BiS slot list with a minor change to mastery and crit. Not enough to make a difference, though.

From what I can see, the gloves are indeed the best offset choice that we have.

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Sorry this hasn't been updated in a while, been busy with work and school. Power and net have also been out the past few days.

Anyhow, I updated a few pieces of gear and reforging. I also added a SMF BiS list.

To do list:

-Mess around with SimCraft to see the effect of hit vs other secondary stats on DPS to determine whether or not a hit setup is even viable.

-Find out if it's worth going for the 3 expertise as an orc vs losing the benefit of having a slower MH weapon.

-More optimal reforging.

-How does mastery work for fury warriors? I know for most classes you get a benefit from every 1.00. But if your mastery provides a 2% bonus, you get a benefit from every 0.50. At what increments do you get a benefit for fury? I'm not sure since it's such an odd number from our increase. I'd love to check this myself but I have many other things to do and I need to go to bed. An answer next time I check this forum would make things a lot easier.

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As Mastery is concerned its a Tooltip rounding error, its an integer % number where a floating number should be.

My Healing Shaman gains 7% from mastery in the tooltip with odd 2.8 mastery points, which is exactly the point for 7% (was a coincidence when i checked shamy for it).

By just losing 47mastery rating i lose 1% in display but i am still over the less odd number of 2.5 mastery points.

If i go Elemental with the same 2.8 mastery i should gain 5.6% Elemental overload, but displayed is a 5% gain.

Also it was confirmed by prot warriors/paladins that each point of mastery rating increases their block chance (which is displayed in decimals).

It also have been proven by Survival Hunters (cant post a source, sorry).

So for various speccs/classes it is confirmed that mastery is like expertise an integer display for an in fact floating number.

I think the Healing Shaman "prove" is nice because its not half points that change the display but .4 incrementals.

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I've been playing around with a setup for Orcs using 2x Shalug'Doom and this is what I've devised so far.

chardev 8

In comparison to Symphonia's current low-hit BiS list:

+1.53 Crit (taking note of the other profile being Worgen)

-0.21 Mastery

+.80 Haste

I'm not too sure these changes would make 2x Shalug'Doom comparable to 2x Ashkandi, but maybe 1.53 crit is worth it.

Things to take note of:

-This is assuming that low hit is optimal and that you want as close to 8% as possible. I'm not sure what hit % is recommended for low hit, but this will put you at exactly (according to Chardev) 8% hit.

-I'm also assuming that the heroic BoE Treads of Savage Beatings will be implemented at some point. If not, additional reforging or reworking will be necessary when using Massacre Treads

-I opted to not reforge the hit on the Cloudburst Ring of the Earthshaker, which put me at exactly 8% hit.

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What Cobyisblue said, as i play also an orc warrior i wondered whether those Shalug'Dooms (if wearing two) are better than the reclaimed Ashkandis, counting the +3 Expertise or does the slower weapon speed of the latter put it ahead?

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I don't believe a double Shalug'doom setup for orcs will ever be as effective as a double Ashkandi setup for heroic gear. Blizz will likely never implement the heroic BoE drops found on wowhead (they haven't done it for the 5 mans either) and so the only available 372 boots would be Massacre Treads. You can't reforge away enough expertise to bring you to 26 (the lowest I can get is 29/29) meaning some exp is simply lost. It would be more effective to run Ashkandi x2 where you can cap expertise just from gear even if you were an orc.

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I believe dodged offhand swings still generate rage.

Stick the Shalug'doom in your main and the Ashkandi in your off. That would likely be Orc BIS.

Akirus the Worm-Breaker with Ashkandi offhand would likely be Dwarf BIS.

Then just aim for 26/23 and viola.

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You could put Shalug'doom in your MH, yes. But then you are putting a slower weapon in your OH. Shalug/Ashkandi generates (slightly) less rage than Ash/Shalug. You are also putting a weapon with a smaller damage range in your MH resulting in smaller Slams and less Raging Blow damage overall. Not to mention your OH having less expertise than your MH. A Raging Blow OH crit in a raid environment with the 4.0.6 buffs shouldn't simply be dismissed. I'm not convinced that Shalug'doom is the way to go for orcs.

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The slower OH doesn't have an effect, the rage gen is normalized based on weapon speed.

Weapon damage, in terms of RB would have no effect outside the dodged RB, if that is even possible. I think that would need to be tested to confirm if it can even be dodged, but let's just assume it can.

If the stat gains are as high as mentioned above...

+1.53 Crit (taking note of the other profile being Worgen)

-0.21 Mastery

+.80 Haste

Or something similar, you woul EASILY match the damage lost by the dodged offhand white swings and the dodged RB offhand swings.

It might just have to come down to a spreadsheet though, because we are in the realm of guessing. I just know that at the end of WOTLK, it was worth the 26/23 trade-off because the stats gained by dropping the 24 expertise into strength made it worth it. Obviously we aren't dropping Strength for Expertise now, but 3 expertise is much more costly now than it was in WOTLK.

You basically save 90 expertise. The trade-off is simply the difference between weapon damage, dodged offhand white damage, and dodged offhand RB/WW damage.

90 crit or hit versus the above. My feeling is that the 90 crit/hit would easily beat it. Take into account Orcs and it's 150 crit/hit.

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After some Testing on PTR 2x Ashkandi is clearly on Top of the Charts, mainly because of RB Buff and Bloodsurge Buff...

Strangely I saw quite a Difference on Flurry Uptime, with 2xAshkandi vs 2xShalug'doom there was a Difference of 9% over all... Ashkandi + Shalug'doom was even 15% behind 2xAshkandi... A guildmate mentioned something about 4 Flurry Stacks when you wield two Weapons with the same Speed.

I thought that was fixed sometimes or am I wrong?

@Nate1492 You are right and wrong at the same time.... ragegen is normalized, but you have, as i mentioned above, less Flurry uptime and that is the Reason for the lesser ragegen.

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A guildmate mentioned something about 4 Flurry Stacks when you wield two Weapons with the same Speed.

I thought that was fixed sometimes or am I wrong?

Landsoul made a recent post in the Fury Thread about the mechanics, but basically, when the weapon swings are synchronized, you get the speed bonus for 4 white attacks.

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It´s still in the game, as two weapons with same speed hit 4 times in one flurry span as they hit simultaneous, which they don´t when the speed differs.

Ragnernon did you use a different gear-setup for 2x Shalug opposed to 2x Ashkandi?

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My gear was based on the low hit BiS list, heroic and nonheroic items mixed.... i reforged for the caps with both weapons and switching boots to the random droping ones when wielding 2xShalug

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How practical is it to line up weapon swings in combat? At the pull, sure, no problem, but what about on target swaps? Plus are you considering the rage spikes this could cause into the DPS discussion?

I know on a training dummy, its easy to line up swings, and I suppose one could argue that even if they don't line up, what is the advantage of not trying. I would like to see comparisons assuming both situations happen (4 flurry swings, lined up swing timers) and non-lined up swings.

So, are these 4 flurry swings to be assumed as part of the decision on which weapons to take? Should Fury always strive to take two weapons with equal speed?

I guess this really just comes back to numbers, how much DPS is lost/gained in each situation.

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Should Fury always strive to take two weapons with equal speed?

In Cataclysm, we don't have much choice, particularly once you enter the raiding tiers. Any difference in 2h weapon speed (in the rare places it exists) is in the .1-.2 weapon speed range which is nearly inconsequential, and for 1h strength weapons, I am fairly certain they are all at 2.6 speed. This is really a non-issue.

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In Cataclysm, we don't have much choice, particularly once you enter the raiding tiers. Any difference in 2h weapon speed (in the rare places it exists) is in the .1-.2 weapon speed range which is nearly inconsequential, and for 1h strength weapons, I am fairly certain they are all at 2.6 speed. This is really a non-issue.

I think you misunderstood something in the question by Nate. He doesn't want to know something about the overall choice off Weapon by it's weapon speed. He wants to know whether to always aim for weapons of the same speed because of the possibility of swing time sync or to choose weapons because of everthing else (Stats, DPS push etc.).

Your "nearly inconsequential" .1-.2 weapon speed range makes it impossible to sync your weapons swings. So the choice is much more consequential then you stated!

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I played around with the reforging on the low hit build and was able to gain 82 crit rating and 18 mastery at the loss of 102 haste rating and 2 rating lost to expertise.

I also updated the meta and wrist enchant.

chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

Edit: I actually ran this build and the low hit build in the first post through 10,000 iterations of SimC and got an interesting result. In my build the value of Hit became much higher than crit.

Build in the first post

Str 2.88

Exp 2.2

Hit 1.92

Crit 1.88

Mastery 1.62

My build

Str 2.82

Hit 2.32

Exp 2.31

Crit 1.85

Mastery 1.57

It also appears that my build was a dps loss on a Patchwerk like fight.

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Considering haste is worth about 10-20% less then hit depending on your hit value, the numbers you posted would suggest haste being on par with crit in 1st post, and higher then crit/mastery in 2nd. Makes the reforging kind of iffy.

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Another question about the BIS setup: As i am engineer and such using the gloves-enchant Synapse Springs, should i still aim for Fury of Angerforge as second trinket along with HoR HC? The activation of the Springs set a 10-12 seconds extra cooldown on on-use trinkets. Wouldnt it be better to just keep License to Slay?

And as i am theorycrafting about this trinket, what is the reason that it is listed as BIS? LtS seems to be better in many ways. The hitrating is used to reach the 5% from gear and can easily be reforged to crit, you get a passive ~ 380 STR (i know, a bit less because of ramp up time) and there are only a few encounters where the stacks fall off (Atramedes, Nefarian, Twilight Council). As Blizzard has improved these kind of trinkets compared to the WotLK Herkuml War Token which needed 20 stacks lasting only for 10 seconds (10 stacks/15 seconds with FoA) it is much easier to retain the stacks.

FoA has the same amount of a secondary stat in crit, some ramp up time for its on-use effect which is 321 STR in average.

You can still argue that crit>hit with this new build, but reforging has to be counted, and the STR difference (after hitting caps our best stat by far) is HUGE!

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My guess would be the crit > hit part that you already mentioned and maybe the fact that you can trigger the on use effect with Deathwish, colossus smash, a golemblood pot, heroism and recklessness for maximum facemelting.

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Its actually a surprisingly valid question iddqd. I was about ready to point out that on use trinkets generally get stacked with DW and such. However depending on the circumstances the effect might be a lot lower. Its still situational, but definitely worth spending some time on: (Im trying to take TG in consideration. but as currently an SMF user i might be slightly biased)

a) for now lets just assume hit = crit. its not entirely true for all weapon setups , but at least for SMF its absolutely true as you need extra hit, and for any TG setup other then dual Ashkandis as well .

b) We have our on use STR for 321 avg, or 380 passive. We have 2 possible way of using trinket:

- alligning with DW/recklessness, which means every trinket proc is affected by DW, and every 2nd one by recklessness (60% of the duration). This also means that first of all we use the trinket every 2.4 min not every 2. Which already drops the avg value to 267. Now given how Deathwish is at best around 15% dmg increase over enrage, and 32% over non enraged stat (using realistic stats), I would assume its around 20% boost to the value of proc. That puts it at 320 or so STR. Now 30% of it will be affected by recklessness, which is hard to really count, but probably around 50% damage increase. so another 15% making it ~370 STR effect. Heroism will put it even further - surpassing the passive trinket.

- not alligning meaning probably 1st one will go during recklessness, heroism and DW, adding around 15% over 8 min fight in the end it makes that srt of use probably worse at around 370.

As we can see its very close. Now honestly after patch with huge DW, recklessness stacks, threat can actually be a major issue, resulting in holding off cds etc. In such case a more "calm and steady" trinket can probably pull ahead. Ease of use is a nice thing too - remember FoA pulls ahead with flawless use - something irrelevant to the LtS.

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... Now honestly after patch with huge DW, recklessness stacks, threat can actually be a major issue, resulting in holding off cds etc. In such case a more "calm and steady" trinket can probably pull ahead. Ease of use is a nice thing too - remember FoA pulls ahead with flawless use - something irrelevant to the LtS.

I already do have problems with threat, using no cooldowns. Don't know why they made our attacks bigger instead of giving us something else without burst aggro.

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a) for now lets just assume hit = crit. its not entirely true for all weapon setups , but at least for SMF its absolutely true as you need extra hit, and for any TG setup other then dual Ashkandis as well .

Mind explaining this? Past 8%, none of the stat weights have shown crit = hit.

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If you have 5 stacks of Raw Fury from the Angerforge trinket you can macro it all together with the engineer tinker and it will all stack. The only time Angerforge gets a 12 second delay is if you use the engineer tinker before you have 5 stacks of Raw Fury.

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