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Efejel

Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet

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Any chance you could model the new Darkmoon cards? I just picked up crusade, and for now I am putting it in as a flat 80 damage but it would be cool to model it for real.

That's a tough call. The sheet is designed around fixed terms & static equations. Definitely not the most accurate way to predict Balance DPS, but definitely the easiest. Incorporating the many dynamic elements of Balance DPS, especially trinkets like the Darkmoon cards, is best handled as average effects in this setup.

A far more accurate method of handling the whole project, and easily taking care of Darkmoon cards, NG procs, resists, Jow, Quag's Eye & spell-haste items, etc. etc. etc. would be a Monte Carlo simulation with simple deterministic rules. It would also be a fair amount of work, and right now there isn't a large enough community to justify the effort.

And of course no method is a replacement for some intelligence & real in-game experience. For now, you're going to have to rely on those more than anything when it comes to the Darkmoon cards. :) (Just remember your proc up-time is going to be fairly fight specific).

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Ef, I must say this is a very well put together spreadsheet that provides a ton of information. I am a big fan of using spreadsheets to calculate data, and this has probably been my favorite one to analyze.

On that note, I personally only play balance casually (when I respec to farm from time to time). I am primarily a resto druid and I know tons upon tons of information about resto in general. I was hoping, with your permission, I could take your sheet and try to expand on it to include resto as well. Either way I will be doing it for myself, but with your permission I would be willing to share my additional work with the community.

If the answer is yes, maybe I could get you on vent / aim sometime to tackle a couple of conditional formatting (i'm not good at making things pretty) questions I have.

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You're more than welcome to adapt the spreadsheet as you see fit. I'd be quite curious to see what results a resto spreadsheet would demonstrate. PM me your AIM info and I will get ahold of you to discuss formatting.

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A far more accurate method of handling the whole project, and easily taking care of Darkmoon cards, NG procs, resists, Jow, Quag's Eye & spell-haste items, etc. etc. etc. would be a Monte Carlo simulation with simple deterministic rules. It would also be a fair amount of work, and right now there isn't a large enough community to justify the effort.

I actually have a simulator that currently handles the five main caster dps classes.

Post is here: http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=12782

I'm hoping some of the class experts might be willing to look over a portion of the implementation.

Here is the Druid code: http://wow-raid-sim.cvs.sourceforge.net/wow-raid-sim/wow-raid-sim/phase2/wow_druid.C?view=markup

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I actually have a simulator that currently handles the five main caster dps classes.

Post is here: http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=12782

I'm hoping some of the class experts might be willing to look over a portion of the implementation.

Here is the Druid code: http://wow-raid-sim.cvs.sourceforge.net/wow-raid-sim/wow-raid-sim/phase2/wow_druid.C?view=markup

I actually saw that, shortly after posting what you quoted! I may look over the Druid code, but it should be fairly straightforward.

FF if not up.

IS if not up.

MF if not up (assuming mana permits).

Wrath until NG or other haste effect (if mana permits).

Starfire.

I was a little curious about equipping your test Druid with the class-specific Ashtongue (or whichever trinket it was) when Starfire was such a low priority. I'd think a couple other trinkets would be preferable--Eye of Mag, Quag's Eye, DC:Crusade, maybe even Icon.

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I was a little curious about equipping your test Druid with the class-specific Ashtongue (or whichever trinket it was) when Starfire was such a low priority. I'd think a couple other trinkets would be preferable--Eye of Mag, Quag's Eye, DC:Crusade, maybe even Icon.

Trinket choice for those examples was just this side of random..... .certainly not optimal.

I just wanted to show the range of possibilities........

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I gave the moonkin the int listed there with 1000 spell damage 35% crit and 70 hit rating and full dps consumeables, and took fight length short enough so mana isn't an issue, and got 1600 DPS... When I did the same thing for my mage with my gear (which is better than these values by quite a bit for fire damage) I was only gettgin 1300 DPS. So unless moonkins can outDPS fire mages and the moonkins I play with simply suck, or moonkins go oom extremely fast (although they do lose on short fights as well in my experience!), this sheet may as well have errors.

I'd look them up but I don't understand all those advanced excel commands ;p

As for threat, any DPS class that knows what he's doing will out-threat a decent tank if they don't have salv. However with salv giving a good tank a small lead makes it very hard to climb back up as your threat/second should be similar. Conclusion - take salv or your DPS WILL be capped by threat. Unless maybe it's an uber feral tank with over 1000 tps ;p

To compare my mage is over 600 tps with salv and 10% threat reduction talent and a raid buffed tank does 600-800 too. Without salv I'd be sitting there and watching the fight almost 1/2 the time...

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1000 spell damage 35% crit and 70 hit rating and full dps consumeables, and took fight length short enough so mana isn't an issue, and got 1600 DPS... When I did the same thing for my mage with my gear (which is better than these values by quite a bit for fire damage) I was only gettgin 1300 DPS. So unless moonkins can outDPS fire mages and the moonkins I play with simply suck, or moonkins go oom extremely fast ... will out-threat a decent tank if they don't have salv.

Hi. Welcome to "Balance Druids - Real Hard Facts" -- please enjoy your stay.

The discriminating traveler can learn more at: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=108247438&sid=1&pageNo=1

It may also interest you to know that a Moonkin in 5/5 Tier 6 + Naturewarden's Treads, Elunite Empowered Bracers, The Nexus Key, Sextant of Unstable Currents, Airman's Ribbon of Gallantry, Violet Signet of the Archmage, Ring of Recurrence, with epic gems & best enchants has about 24.3% crit, 134 hit rating, and 1115 dmg from gear/talents, and fully raid buffed can sustain 1260 DPS for over 6.5 min (excluding the two tier 6 set bonus effects, which will add up to ~5% more DPS).

It turns out, amazingly enough, making up arbitrary numbers for inputs produces arbitrary numbers for outputs! (#)

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so whats the most dps anyone's managed to extract from this, with the best gear possible?

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My guild is currently devoid of a dancing chicken, I want to remedy that.

So far for talent specs, I have some questions. The balance talent tree is very top heavy, very little filler talents and basically all look very great. I've come up with

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Mt0rdicsguAZZxxcb

I have heard good things about Force of Nature as being viable mana effecient dps, but is it?

I would love to somehow pick up 5/5 Subtley, but the points just aren't there - and I presume that threat will not be too much of an issue because of my substandard gear.

Any, on the topic of gear, any advice? I'm looking to gear up with the best pre-raid gear, so I can prove that moonkin deserves a slot and gear upgrades.

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so whats the most dps anyone's managed to extract from this, with the best gear possible?

When I use our guilds moonkin and his gear, the spreadsheet says 1278 dps or something around this value.

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So far for talent specs, I have some questions. The balance talent tree is very top heavy, very little filler talents and basically all look very great. I've come up with

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Mt0rdicsguAZZxxcb

Do you have an alt for farming? If not, you're going to REALLY suffer without Celestial Focus AND with no Treants. Since you're already at 41+ points, I'd try and figure out a way to pick it up. I'd also wonder how many DW Warriors/Rogues/Shaman you're raiding with to justify picking up Imp FF.

I have heard good things about Force of Nature as being viable mana effecient dps, but is it?

I would love to somehow pick up 5/5 Subtley, but the points just aren't there - and I presume that threat will not be too much of an issue because of my substandard gear.

FoN is very fight-specific. Anything with AOE effects wipes them out fairly quickly--at least it did pre-2.1, I can't speak for any stam buffs they've gotten since then. And as long as you have BoS & KTM you should be fine on threat--pick up a subtlety cloak enchant!

Any, on the topic of gear, any advice? I'm looking to gear up with the best pre-raid gear, so I can prove that moonkin deserves a slot and gear upgrades.

Gear advice would depend on what you're wearing currently. The non-specific list is: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=106672385&sid=1#13 but presumably you'd have access to heroics--which nets you a leather bracer option. :-/

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So far for talent specs, I have some questions. The balance talent tree is very top heavy, very little filler talents and basically all look very great. I've come up with

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Mt0rdicsguAZZxxcb

I had that spec when the patch came out to test out the Threat reduction talent but it was just mehh to me. After I went bear to tank Kara one night when the warrior didn't show up I went and respeced out of it that what I am now and not really noticing too much of a difference. I still have like 9k armor in Moonkin so I can take a few hits from trash which is generally the only time I will pull before I get a BoP or a tank can taunt it off. Once I get a better cloak I'm also gonna throw the -2% threat on it.

Do you have an alt for farming? If not, you're going to REALLY suffer without Celestial Focus AND with no Treants. Since you're already at 41+ points, I'd try and figure out a way to pick it up. I'd also wonder how many DW Warriors/Rogues/Shaman you're raiding with to justify picking up Imp FF.

May I ask why? Caster mobs I just nuke down fast and if its a melee mob I root it first and even if the roots break its generally dead before it gets to me or within a cast or two. Sure Celestial Focus is nice for when your casting and not getting the interrupts but its only useful when solo and in PvP. I decided that I can live without it solo and I don't PvP enough to make it useful. But you def. don't have to have it for solo farming.

As for Treants, nice but not needed while solo. On boss fights where your not CC'ing much or anything and theres little to no AoE going on they are great to use every 3mins. Even on Gruul they are nice. I try and throw them after a Ground Slam and away from any current Cave Ins. They hit for 100-150 and really fast and can crit for 300ish. They still die if anything from a boss hits them though is the only sad part.

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4pc on t5 is so overpowered.

I cant imagine it wont be nerfed. Hopefully, not till I skip t6 cause t5 is so good....

Personally, Im trying to figure out exactly which pieces ill grab. Gloves are not as good as soul-eaters alone, nor legs as spellstrike. We havent killed Kael yet either, so I might end up geting both legs and gloves till we do down him...

Currently my starfires average 2900 hits with 13% curse. 3500 average damage with crits.

With teir5 equiv gear Ill be averaging 3100hits/4000ave with crits.

Since that 4pc effectively scales with damage and crit. Ill be gaining an average 400 damage per starfire with crit including. The equivlant of +250 damage or so.

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So basically the conclusion is that the moonkin gear is the problem rather than the spells. But then again 1250 DPS is a LOT for a moonkin. Even if you ignore mana completely it's still a lot. I wish I had such moonkins.

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So basically the conclusion is that the moonkin gear is the problem rather than the spells. But then again 1250 DPS is a LOT for a moonkin. Even if you ignore mana completely it's still a lot. I wish I had such moonkins.

Gear is certainly a large part of the problem.

No nature "curse of shadows" hurts alot as well. Stormstrike is not reliable for its 20%, and neither is thunderfury for its -nature resistance.

Lack axiallary buffs too.

A frost/arc mage's damage will go through the roof if hes benefiting from a full frost mage's winters chill.

Fire vul 15%, shadowweaving, etc. Druid gets the basic Curse of shadows for starfire/moonfire, and misery.

The mana problem is partially a gear issue. Partially insufficient base talents. Melee moonkin for example... omen of clarity. Two talents that have no benefit to balance, yet clearly are part of the design and preventing effective talents from being added.

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The spreadsheet however showed starfire spam as being uber DPS. If my mage can gear in spellfire/spellstrike and mix&match epics for way over 1000 fire damage so should a moonkin be able to gear for arcane damage. Maybe that's the problem?

My mage wouldn't be doing nearly as much DPS if I forced myself to gear for all types of spell damage (or gear for stam or mana either), and I would lose my bracers if I forced myself to have arcane damage as well (green bracers with +fire or +arcane damage is the best dps you'll see until the eye).

Isn't starfire also the most efficient? The more I look at it the more I get to thing spellfire moonkins are the solution for moonkin DPS, but then again I'm not 100% sure you can live with no mana from gear like my mage does and make up for it with pots or a shadow priest and other raid goodies. After all mages do get evocation and gems, but still my mage lasts through just about any fight I've been to up to mag without even potting. But that' doesn't mean much since I hadn't done SSC yet, but I was looking at fight timers and it seems like it wouldn't be much different more often than not.

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May I ask why? Caster mobs I just nuke down fast and if its a melee mob I root it first and even if the roots break its generally dead before it gets to me or within a cast or two. Sure Celestial Focus is nice for when your casting and not getting the interrupts but its only useful when solo and in PvP. I decided that I can live without it solo and I don't PvP enough to make it useful. But you def. don't have to have it for solo farming.

1) You're right about being able to farm without it. I just personally hate playing that way, but I should have kept that bias out of it.

2) You're mistaken about it being useless in raids & small-scale PvE. There are certainly a number of times when you are vulnerable to pushback in raids. To name a couple of examples I'm 100% certain of: tanking Kiggler, tanking Moroes adds, Magtheridon's trash & channelers. I'm sure there are others, and I'm sure you can preform adequately without the talent if you so choose. But don't write it off as useless.

4pc on t5 is so overpowered. I cant imagine it wont be nerfed.

Starfire hits (burst) and DPS (when not including CoS) are so bad, and the support gear for Moonkin is so sparse, that I would be surprised if they DID nerf it. The largest source of nerfs seems to be valid, repeated screenshots/testimonials demonstrating unplanned class imbalance, and who's going to post "OMG Moonkin in t5 out-dps'ed me!" without getting an "L2P" response? Bear in mind the number of t5 farming guilds that are bringing Moonkin...

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The spreadsheet however showed starfire spam as being uber DPS. If my mage can gear in spellfire/spellstrike and mix&match epics for way over 1000 fire damage so should a moonkin be able to gear for arcane damage. Maybe that's the problem?

My mage wouldn't be doing nearly as much DPS if I forced myself to gear for all types of spell damage (or gear for stam or mana either), and I would lose my bracers if I forced myself to have arcane damage as well (green bracers with +fire or +arcane damage is the best dps you'll see until the eye).

Isn't starfire also the most efficient? The more I look at it the more I get to thing spellfire moonkins are the solution for moonkin DPS, but then again I'm not 100% sure you can live with no mana from gear like my mage does and make up for it with pots or a shadow priest and other raid goodies. After all mages do get evocation and gems, but still my mage lasts through just about any fight I've been to up to mag without even potting. But that' doesn't mean much since I hadn't done SSC yet, but I was looking at fight timers and it seems like it wouldn't be much different more often than not.

Well, if you looked a mage spreadsheet with buffs, damage gear the "uber" dps would be the same or greater.

The arcane damage is a tough call.

A mage lock or spreist does not give up their secondary utility with focusing. aoe, cc, etc.

A druid would. Look at the 2pc on t5. -350mana of the cost of regrowth when shifting out of moonkin. Pretty clear indication, offhealing is intended to be a part of what a balance druid brings to the raid. And as a raiding balance druid, I do in fact make use of that off healing quite often. transitions, healing myself as needed, etc.

To further this, insect swarm and wrath are very often integral parts of the druids dps rotation. One of the basic things missed by new druids or forum hanger ons, is that you dont use the same dps rotation for every fight.

Vashj- wrath, starfire on elementals. MF+IS on striders

leo- MF+IS on ww. Starfire+MF+IS on demon.

Curator- wrath

Karathress-stay out of moonkin. offheal aoe damage with lifebloom, wrath totems, starfire naga.

Etc...

At any given time, you are in fact using nature and arcane at the same time, sometimes just nature, sometimes just arcane, and very often your healing as well.

You could certainly have multiple sets of gear. The Pure arcane stuff for tank and spanks, and the damage/healing for more involved fights.

Arguably this is partiallly why druid dps falls behind. They cant go +arcane damage and expect the same results.

Furthermore, spirit and mp/5 are very much required as well. Innervate is substaintially weaker then evocate, and the druid needs that spirit to compensate. As well as 15% intenstity vs 30% mage armor combat regen.

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I've seen alot of moonkin forgo Imp. FF, but isn't it insanely good?

3% hit raid wide. Equivalent of 47.4 hit rating per player benefitting.

Rogues

Hunters (and their pets)

Feral Druids

Warriors

Enhancement Shamans

It will boost, tank threat, since +hit is so poorly represented in tanking gear. The only issue is that some classes may already be at the Hit Cap, but this is easily remedied by switching in more high AP/Stat gear.

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Personally, I would have to resocket/ reenchant gear to make use of +hit. So would our most of our melee and caster DPS (I believe most are within 1% of the hit cap, except for DPS DW warriors and 1 warlock). IF the moonkin was in 100% of raids, yes, 3% to hit would be great. Building gear around hoping they would be there is bad for when they're not.

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I've seen alot of moonkin forgo Imp. FF, but isn't it insanely good?

http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php?p=337984&postcount=128

"3% hit = how much DPS? As has been pointed out, it only works if your melee DPS gears around the assumption that iFF will ALWAYS be up on the mob. In the event you're using a Feral tank it will also, I believe, prevent them from applying FF(F) with the message "A more powerful spell is already active" and thus take away rage-free threat gen. (This also assumes your tank is rage-starved, which is next-to-never the case for a Feral tank, except for possibly during the early going on Gruul if the Druid is OT and not MT). It also eats into a Moonkin's cast time and mana pool, albeit slightly.

The upshot: iFF is an argument for bringing Moonkin on a raid if their DPS is subpar. Personally, I'd rather demonstrate that in the upper stratosphere of gear a Moonkin has roughly the same DPS as a Mage on their own, and let the 5% crit aura do the arguing."

http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php?p=338534&postcount=150

"In the gear/buffs I had on our Gruul kill this week, iFF would have been 31 DPS for me. The other Rogue present also would have got 25+ DPS from it, the two tanks certainly weren't hit-capped, and we had a Fury Warrior chugging along too who certainly would have benefitted."

http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php?p=337989&postcount=129

"3% fewer misses on shield slam/sunder/revenge/etc is not trivial in terms of threat generation."

Some people really think it shines. Others don't. Remember that primarily you will be increasing the DPS your raid gets through the white damage of your Dual-Wielders. When I was raiding, that was 3 rogues & 0 warriors & 0 shaman, so I didn't seriously consider it.

EDIT: Someone replied as I was tracking this down, saying pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

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Starfire hits (burst) and DPS (when not including CoS) are so bad, and the support gear for Moonkin is so sparse, that I would be surprised if they DID nerf it. The largest source of nerfs seems to be valid, repeated screenshots/testimonials demonstrating unplanned class imbalance, and who's going to post "OMG Moonkin in t5 out-dps'ed me!" without getting an "L2P" response? Bear in mind the number of t5 farming guilds that are bringing Moonkin...

I wouldnt have that kind of faith...

Not a soul complained about insect swarm. And it got nerfed. And rune of metamorphasis.

Someone might realize it scales too well, and well see a change.

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I am very much not a fan of impFF.

Balance is very very point heavy as it is.

Most people that assert how much of a boon it is for them, arent geared properly. Rogues running in pvp gear and dont have enough hit.

You could certainly argue it would increase their dps. But also begs the question why they need the druid to sacrifice his damage in order to make up for their laziness in making the effort to maximize their dps as well.

Efejal's post above asserted 30 dps gain from 3% hit.

I have a fury warrior alt, and admittedly havnt played it much since BC, and I dont know exactly how much +hit is on level 70 gear, and I'm not up to date on white dps vs yellow dps comparions.

Prior to BC, the 9% yellow hit cap was cake. and white damage averaged 50-65% of your total damage.

So assuming 1000 dps average, 60% white, 600dps is white subject to 24% miss,

3% of that 600 is 18 dps.

How many melee DW do you bring? 2? 3. More likely imp FF is a total 54 dps or so increase to your raid.

Ill keep intensity thank you very much.

The benefit to the MT is a much more reasonable arguement. While only subject to a 9% miss rate on level 73 bosses, tanking gear is in fact woefully lacking in hit rating.

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DWers need an insane amount of hit to get capped. If you're maximizing your DPS, you're probably not at maxed hit as a DWer, therefore +hit is great. Plus it's one of the very few things that's a decent increase to tank threat generation, as those even more don't cap their hit. Imp FF is a must for raids imo, there are plenty of stuff you can drop like entangle, thorns and nature's grasp. Anyway if you lose 3% of your damage for imp FF it's STILL worth it, and you don't even have to lose that.

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