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koaschten

4.2 Changes Discussion

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And the chest isn't always going to be the best off-piece. If you find yourself with a lot of hit, then the legs will be the better off-piece. At least with stats as they're weighted now.
The flaw in that logic is that we would need to be over spell hit cap with no way to shed hit (via reforge or dumping hit gems for straight agility), which I don't see happening this tier. You must always value pieces as a stand alone until they impact the overall score, especially when balancing set bonuses.

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Last year, there was an announcement that Cataclysm raid bosses will require increasing amounts of hit rating as we progress through tiers. The last blue post on the topic I remember was back in September, and after that I didn't find any additional info. So now that we've got Firelands on the ptr, has anyone done any testing of how hit scaling actually works, or whether it's implemented at all?

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Last year, there was an announcement that Cataclysm raid bosses will require increasing amounts of hit rating as we progress through tiers. The last blue post on the topic I remember was back in September, and after that I didn't find any additional info. So now that we've got Firelands on the ptr, has anyone done any testing of how hit scaling actually works, or whether it's implemented at all?

I cannot say with absolute confidence but it does not appear to be implemented at the moment. Raiding on the PTR with no mods, I have not noticed any yellow misses pop up from missed poisons though, I am not specifically looking for them. While Blizzard to my knowledge has said nothing about it since this discussion, it is the PTR and things are in constant flux so we may need to just sit and wait.

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"Darkmoon Card: Hurricane damage done when triggered has been increased by 40%, however, it can no longer deal critical strikes and no longer receives any modifiers to its damage from the equipping player."

Just posted to MMO-Champion today. Most likely this change is just to keep it in line with where the proc is now and later into Firelands and later tiers it will fall away as just an entry level raiding trinket.

I may have missed the discussion, but this seems to need a bit more attention. As far as I can tell, this is a pretty significant buff to DMC:H. A raw 40% damage increase would seem to outweigh the removal of any crit damage we might receive. Even at 40% crit raid-buffed, the removal of critical strikes from the trinket should only be a 20% reduction.

40% crit chance * 50% damage bonus from crits = 20% crit damage

So in the end the change looks like a 20% buff, clearly enough to be worth talking about. But perhaps there's something I'm missing here - any thoughts?

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Going to go out on a limb here and suggest that this is why its not getting any attention:

"... no longer receives any modifiers to its damage from the equipping player."

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As far as I remember, the "modifiers to its damage" bit refers to classes with +elemental damage mastery/talents, which in this case is enhancement shamans and survival hunters. This part of the change was never relevant to rogues.

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I'm pretty certain that's correct, which is why I didn't feel the need to address that part of the change. Rogues lack any damage modifier that would affect DMC:H's damage.

But upon further consideration I think I made a pretty stupid mistake in the way I structured my first calculation. The trinket's base damage has to be used as a starting point, which I didn't do. This would make the pre-4.2 trinket with critical strike bonuses a 120% output (assuming 40% crit chance) and the post-4.2 trinket a 140% output:

1.4/1.2 = 1.166 or 116.6%

So the actual difference would be closer to a 16.6% damage increase rather than 20% as I first guessed. Still pretty significant nevertheless.

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Using the EP value given for DMC:H in the Combat thread (1333.7) and the EP value for Agility set at 2.7, the EP value for the proc on live is 467. Adding 16.6% damage increase to the EP bumps it up by 77.5, giving the final trinket a value of 1411 in 4.2 for combat, putting it ahead of normal Machination and heroic Cyclone, but still below Fluid Death and heroic Machination.

For Assassination, the values 1180.97 and 2.6 are given. Proc component is 346, EP buff is 57.4, final value in 4.2 is 1238, closely following heroic Tia's Grace and still below normal Machination, heroic Cyclone, Fluid Death and heroic Machination.

However, 4.2 will bring new trinkets which will probably be better than our current best in slot trinkets. Overall, assuming these values are correct it's a neat buff for the card in relevance of the first tier, and a decent investment for new Combat players at least.

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There will be a new reputation faction called Avengers of Hyjal in 4.2 and it offers you some of the items posted earlier by nextormento:

Exalted:

Viridian Signet of the Avengers

Revered:

Ancient Petrified Seed

Honored:

Flamebinding Girdle

Currently there isn't anything for dps using agility on friendly but I guess it's only a matter of time since MMO lists two plate dps cloaks on their news post.

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There's also a heroic version of Ancient Petrified Seed. It doesn't have the "Requires Reverered with" tag, and I really don't know why or if it's in the game.

Maybe they originally wanted the trinket to drop from a boss and already scraped that, or it's some weird mix of reputation reward and heroic boss drop, though we haven't seen any of that type yet.

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There's also a heroic version of Ancient Petrified Seed. It doesn't have the "Requires Reverered with" tag, and I really don't know why or if it's in the game.

Maybe they originally wanted the trinket to drop from a boss and already scraped that, or it's some weird mix of reputation reward and heroic boss drop, though we haven't seen any of that type yet.

Blizzard had initially said, when first introducing the Daily Quest hub's "faction", that they were not actually a faction and you would not gain rep with them. So that is probably why a heroic version exists.

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Blizzard had initially said, when first introducing the Daily Quest hub's "faction", that they were not actually a faction and you would not gain rep with them. So that is probably why a heroic version exists.

Well, they said that Avengers of Hyjal rep wouldn't be pushed via the daily hub, not that it was no real faction at all. They also said it'd be similar to the Ashen Verdict, but without the trash mobs farming part of it. So most likely we'll be seeing reputation only for boss kills after a certain level (think of Molten Core) or Brood of Nozdormu which involved some special mobs, quests or loots.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2416209385?page=17#340

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2416209385?page=17#322

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Your first calculation was actually correct. Assuming 40% crit, it gave a 0.4 * 0.5 = 0.2 = 20% damage increase. The new DMC:H gives a flat 40% damage buff, but removes the ability to crit. Still assuming 40% crit, that's a 20% damage increase from live.

The base damage doesn't need to be used as a starting point because you are comparing two multipliers added onto the base damage.

However, keep in mind that this buff is only to the proc component of the trinket. Using the EP value given for DMC:H in the Combat thread (1333.7) and the EP value for Agility set at 2.7, the EP value for the proc on live is 467. Adding the 20% damage increase to the EP bumps it up by 93.4, giving the final trinket a value of 1427.1 in 4.2 for combat, putting it ahead of normal Machination and heroic Cyclone, but still below Fluid Death and heroic Machination.

For Assassination, the values 1180.97 and 2.6 are given. Proc component is 346, EP buff is 69.2, final value in 4.2 is 1250, just barely tied with heroic Tia's Grace and still belownormal Machination, heroic Cyclone, Fluid Death and heroic Machination.

However, 4.2 will bring new trinkets which will probably be better than our current best in slot trinkets. Overall, assuming these values are correct it's a neat buff for the card in relevance of the first tier.

Your Math is slightly flawed 16.6% is the correct amount of the buff to the proc.

The current average damage if you have 40% critical strike is 120% of 5000 or 6000. In 4.2 this will change to 140% of 5000 or 7000. When you do a percent difference calculation (7000-6000)/6000 you end up with 16.66... percent.

Now that said your comment on the trinkets EP value not increasing by as much I completely agree with.

at an EP value of 2.7 for agility and 467 for the current proc the increase could be determined as follows:

{[(1.166*467)+(2.7*321)]-1333.7}/1333.7 or a 5.8% buff to the EP of the trinket for combat.

{[(1.166*346)+(2.6*321)]-1180.97}/1180.97 or 4.8% buff to the EP of the trinket for Assassination.

Now this all changes if your critical strike is lower than 40%(which is probably likely for people who are using this trinket).

It would actually be a greater buff in that case.

For example a combat rogue with 30% critical strike would have the proc on the trinket buffed by:

(7000-5750)/5750 = 21.7%

In summation, the change to Darkmoon Card: Hurricane is from a scaling trinket to a non-scaling trinket. This results in a decent buff in the trinket for poorly geared rogues and a small buff in the trinket for well geared rogues. Either way its rank among trinkets seems to be affected only slightly if at all.

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Yes, you're right. My mistake.

The new values are then 1411 for Combat and 1238 for Mutilate. The final verdict and it's placement in relation to other trinkets doesn't change much.

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Many item updates from yesterday, including a few name changes and the addition of heroic versions of all items. It's curious that some faction rewards have both 378 and 391 versions; is there any precedent for this? I would venture a guess that the upgrades are bought with an item from daily quests or some such method. It would also appear that Ragnaros is a tier slightly higher than 12, as Sinestra is currently (but with the inclusion of a normal mode). Now that loot is fairly final, we can guess that iLevels are as follows:

365 - New crafting base tier, seasonal and quest rewards

378 - T12 normal

384 - Normal Ragnaros

391 - T12 heroics

397 - Heroic Ragnaros

One final note is Aella's Bottle is quite an interesting trinket if it works the way I think it will. It would seem you're able to store a charge (multiple charges?) in the bottle every 3 minutes for use when you want it. Sadly, the use is crit and would average far below our current trinkets (if it's a single charge maximum), but could have some interesting uses for back stab burn phases coupled with our new set bonuses. This is highly speculative, so until we know more it's best to just keep an eye on it for now.

EDIT: I should clarify that some crafted items do spill over to 378 (as pointed out below), but 365 would be the new base for this tier.

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Many item updates from yesterday, including a few name changes and the addition of heroic versions of all items. It's curious that some faction rewards have both 378 and 391 versions; is there any precedent for this? I would venture a guess that the upgrades are bought with an item from daily quests or some such method. It would also appear that Ragnaros is a tier slightly higher than 12, as Sinestra is currently (but with the inclusion of a normal mode). Now that loot is fairly final, we can guess that iLevel is as follows:

365 - New crafting tier, seasonal and quest rewards

378 - T12 normal

384 - Normal Ragnaros

391 - T12 heroics

397 - Heroic Ragnaros

One final note is Aella's Bottle is quite an interesting trinket if it works the way I think it will. It would seem you're able to store a charge (multiple charges?) in the bottle every 3 minutes for use when you want it. Sadly, the use is crit and would average far below our current trinkets (if it's a single charge maximum), but could have some interesting uses for back stab burn phases coupled with our new set bonuses. This is highly speculative, so until we know more it's best to just keep an eye on it for now.

Regarding crafting item ilevels, it appears that armor is ilevel 378, for example: Pattern: Treads of the Craft and Pattern: Clutches of Evil.

This replicates the tier 11 model, with [iTEM]Assassin's Chestplate[/iTEM] being the same ilevel as [iTEM]Wind Dancer's Tunic[/iTEM](normal).

However, the weapons do look to be 365.

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One final note is Aella's Bottle is quite an interesting trinket if it works the way I think it will. It would seem you're able to store a charge (multiple charges?) in the bottle every 3 minutes for use when you want it. Sadly, the use is crit and would average far below our current trinkets (if it's a single charge maximum), but could have some interesting uses for back stab burn phases coupled with our new set bonuses. This is highly speculative, so until we know more it's best to just keep an eye on it for now.

Sounds to me the Equip effect is just a vanity effect, and the on use effect is completely separate from it.

Regarding crafting item ilevels, it appears that armor is ilevel 378, for example: Pattern: Treads of the Craft and Pattern: Clutches of Evil.

This replicates the tier 11 model, with [iTEM]Assassin's Chestplate[/iTEM] being the same ilevel as [iTEM]Wind Dancer's Tunic[/iTEM](normal).

However, the weapons do look to be 365.

The weapons don't require any Living Embers to make.

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Yeah, my first thought on reading it was that the Equip: effect was just going to be a meteor proc of some sort; however, the fact that its called a "bottle" might imply that there's more to it than that. Then again, there are plenty of items who's name has nothing to do with their functionality, so it may just be a meteor proc.

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Riccket's Magnetic Fireball is now listed with the same two effects than those of Aella's Bottle.

The trigger for Meteor Magnet (with a 20% proc chance) is directly linked to Ricket's Magnetic Fireball. Rather than the former implementation of Ricket's (~420 damage on a 3' cool down), it'd make a lot more sense for the Bottle to be the 'on use' crit and Ricket's to call a low damage meteors, or to stack them to be released every 2-3 minutes. Personaly I'm leaning towards the non stacking version of it, mainly because the only clue leading to stacking is the 3' cd (2' on Ricket's) seen only on mmo-champion but not on wowhead.

Either way I expect an update to both trinkets seeing that the 'on use' effect has no cool down listed.

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From the May 26th PTR update:

- Cloak of Shadows cooldown is now 2 minutes, up from 90 seconds. In addition, Cloak of Shadows is no longer on the global cooldown.

- Combat Readiness and Cloak of Shadows now share a cooldown.

Assassination:

- Assassin's Resolve damage bonus has been increased to 20%, up from 15%.

- Vile Poisons now increases poison damage by 12/24/36%, up from 7/14/20%.

Combat:

- Savage Combat now increases attack power by 3/6%, up from 2/4%.

- Vitality now increases attack power by 30%, up from 25%.

Subtlety:

- Elusiveness now reduces the cooldown of Cloak of Shadows by 15/30 seconds, up from 10/20, and now also reduces the cooldown of Combat Readiness by 15/30 seconds.

- Sanguinary Vein damage to bleeding targets has been increased to 8/16%, from 5/10%.

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The Cloak/Combat Readiness change is a pretty massive PVP nerf. It wouldn't be that bad, except Combat Readiness is an entirely defensive cooldown, while Cloak is a strategic cooldown.

The problem with the change is that Cloak is both an offensive ability (snare break, instant CC counter during a kill attempt) and a defensive counter (strip debuffs, take 40% less physical damage). Virtually the only time you would elect to use Combat Readiness over Cloak would be if you're being focused versus something like a warrior/feral druid team. If there's anyone with magic or curse debuffs controlling or damaging you, Cloak is going to the flatly-better option. The net effect here is that Combat Readiness will be effectively unused - you never use it in PVE, and if you have to choose between CR and Cloak in PVP, you'd be a fool to choose CR in almost any conceivable situation.

The damage dial tweaks are sort of hilarious, though. I have no math validation, but it feels like Assassination is going to be the clear PVE spec of choice if those numbers go live, barring gimmick cleaves like Magmaw or Halfus in 4.2.

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Very quick estimate says it is a buff of about 8% for Assassination (I am not sure if Assassin's Resolves applies to poisons), which sounds gigantic. Anyone has numbers from the PTR yet?

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The thing that sticks out in my mind is Heroic V&T. While I know that it will be "old content" as soon as these changes are implemented, it will make staying in the Twilight Realm the entire fight noticeably harder for many raids that try and go back for it. Be it achievements, mounts, fun, whatever. Luckily, Sub has a DPS boost coming (albeit tiny), and there's the inherent DPS inflation due to better gear from Firelands, but it's definitely going to change a number of strategies for anyone who wants to try it post-4.2.

For the Cloak/CR change, I'm going to be honest and say that I don't really PvP, but the defensive CD nerf seems kind of weird. Combat Readiness and Cloak are essentially mutually exclusive in PvP, and Combat Readiness just doesn't have that much use to it unless you know you're going to be burst down by physical damage based specs. It's just a weird and rather insignificant change in comparison to the lengthened CD to cloak.

It looks like it's going to be roughly 5% increase to Assassination, while Combat will get something less. I haven't done any numbers on Combat since the impact is gear dependant, but I would expect it to be close to 5%, or maybe a little less.

I'm going to hold to the hope that this is only their first attempt to try some changes for the patch, and that they will change these numbers around again. I mean, I could go on about what I would rather see done to improve how the class functions, but I'd rather not wishlist the class.

EDIT: I failed and confused two things, 5% as Aldriana noted looks right.

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