Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

malthrin

[Prot] 4.2 in flames

160 posts in this topic

You're talking about not maximizing the use of cooldowns in a theorycrafting topic. Dekkar merely pointed out the obvious: If you don't use HS wisely, often it will be wasted during some non-damaging / magic damage / casting ability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can also come up with a number of examples in normal-mode Firelands where mechanics punish such usage (or conversely, reward careful usage).

Shannox: Riplimb spends a chunk of time trapped or running away, more useful to use it at high stacks right before the javelin is thrown.

Beth'tilac: As the downstairs tank, your only danger period is when a drone eats a couple spiderlings or you have two drones up. Save it for either of those cases.

Ryolith: Add tanking happens in spurts, could potentially waste it if it got used while none were up and you were attacking a leg. This encounter is simple enough for tanks that it hardly matters, though.

Alysrazor: Tantrums hurt a lot. Saving Holy Shield for them makes a noticeable difference in your survivability.

Baleroc: Possible tank swap every 30s, and Inferno/Devastation Blade cannot be blocked AFAIK. A bit of an odd situation, as HS is completely useless during the "danger period" of either Blade attack. I tend to use it about 10s before a devastation to make it easier for healers to top me off.

Majordomo: Far better to make sure it's up near the end of any phase, when the danger level is highest (boss + cat adds especially)

Ragnaros: tank swaps every 20-30s, lots of 3-5 second casts on timers. You can take a lot of stress off of your healers by using it intelligently here (while a healer is dead/moving from Smash/running away from an orb/snaring or stunning a Son/etc.).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Baleroc: Possible tank swap every 30s, and Inferno/Devastation Blade cannot be blocked AFAIK.

Decimating Strike (Decimation Blade) CANNOT be blocked. It can be dodged or parried.

Inferno Strike (Inferno Blade) CAN be blocked, dodged or parried.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
just reviewing the new 4.2 tank relic (both normal and heroic) and it seems both overall have less CTC. The 359 relic gives 2.61% CTC, the 372 1.37% CTC and the 391 1.665% CTC. The heroic relic is an increase 56 stam as well as AP gain from the strength, however i'm wondering whether it's worth even swapping the old relic out until you are past block cap and want to start swapping mastery for avoidance stats.

How is your maths that gives the 359 relic 2,61% CTC and the 391 1,665% CTC? I bought the 372 relic with my prot today, reforged dodge to mastery and the difference was about 0,15% CTC (ignoring the gem in my 359 relic but the as both relics have a slot this should be legit)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the math I did, turns out i added it up wrong at the end and a quick correction showed the right values

Relic of Khaz'goroth

+107 Strength (28.89 parry rating = .16%)

+161 Stamina

Increases your dodge rating by 72 (0.41%)

Increases your mastery rating by 72 (0.40 mastery = .9% block)

1.47% CTC

Deathclutch Figurine

+128 Strength (34.56 parry rating = .18%)

+192 Stamina

Increases your dodge rating by 90 reforged to -> 36 mastery (.20 mastery .45% block), 54 dodge (.31%)

Increases your parry rating by 77 .43%

1.37% CTC

Deathclutch Figurine

Heroic

+145 Strength (39.15 parry rating = .22% parry)

+217 Stamina

Increases your dodge rating by 102 (0.58%) reforged to -> 40 mastery(.22 mastery .495% block, 82 dodge (.46% dodge)

Increases your parry rating by (87 0.49%)

1.665% CTC

I didn't use exact figures and generally rounded to 2 decimals, so it will all be slightly out, but I think it's pretty close to accurate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What you write about how to balance dodge vs parry. Have you then taken into consideration on how much you weight Windwalker proc? Since if parry and dodge are dead equal by default, then the windwalker proc will be a little weak, while if dodge is somewhat lower than parry then it will be more powerfull. What thoughts have you made about this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't bother to consider Windwalk or any other procs. Honestly, by the time you get to balancing out avoidance stats for DR purposes, you're pretty much done with min-maxing your gear. If you take it farther than that, you're talking about gains on the order of hundredths of a percent of avoidance - that's too minute to be worth anyone's time thinking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Besides, you don't even need to care about leaving dodge lower than parry, it happens naturally since you have so much Str. At least my dodge is always trying to catch up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First time really posting on here but here i go...

You said that the [iTEM]52293[/iTEM] with the +81 stamina and 1% block chance was the best meta to go for but it appears that the [iTEM]52289[/iTEM] which gives +54 mastery and minor running speed gives you more block overrall...

The reason for this is becuase the Eternal one requires 3 blue gems which means the most mastery you can get is +60 mastery and +60 stamina but for the Fleet meta it only requires 2 yellow gems which means you can gem +40 mastery x3 so its +120 mastery so in total the Fleet meta gives +174 mastery where as the Eternal only gives 60+1% block which seems to be lower than 174 mastery ( If the numbers i found for block % was right Fleet gives 2.19% and Eternal gives 1.76%). You do get an extra 141 stamina but stamina doesn't appear to be of any use until the cap is reached.

I regemmed my toon to test this out and it came out about 2% less block with the 1% block meta... What do you guys say about this due to i may have missed an obvious thing or its just the itemisation on my gear.

( im on about 66% mastery atm but it shouldn't matter due to mastery not being affected by DR)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, the eternal meta is block value, not block chance. Secondly, I don't think most people would agree that stamina is worthless until you are block capped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
First off, the eternal meta is block value, not block chance. Secondly, I don't think most people would agree that stamina is worthless until you are block capped.

I agree that stamina is worthless until block cap, but either the 1% block value or 2% armor is worth more reduction than the mastery on the fleet meta. Not worth giving up to block cap. You couldn't gain any survivability with the talent points you free up from PoJ either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree that stamina is worthless until block cap, but either the 1% block value or 2% armor is worth more reduction than the mastery on the fleet meta. Not worth giving up to block cap. You couldn't gain any survivability with the talent points you free up from PoJ either.

Stamina isn't worthless before block cap. It's just that capping block is extremely effective for now at smoothing things out. If the majority of our damage taken was magic then Stamina would pretty much be king since avoidance/block don't do a damn thing against it normally. The biggest situation I can recall where avoidance did work against magic was Hodir and Frozen Blows. Such a setup is certainly possible again, but we'd need to test since Blizz would toss us some sort of curve ball with it.

The only true survival talent we could get if we moved away from Ret is Last Word. One could argue Judgements of the Pure is a survival talent due to Seal of Insight, but the bonuses are incredibly lackluster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The biggest situation I can recall where avoidance did work against magic was Hodir and Frozen Blows. Such a setup is certainly possible again, but we'd need to test since Blizz would toss us some sort of curve ball with it.

Parrying or Dodging Cho'gal when he is empowered by the Fire element prevents the fire damage, although Im not sure if Blocking would reduce the damage, and I highly doubt it. Any mechanic that procs off a melee swing and does Magic damage when it connects (much like our own Seal system) can be avoided.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Parrying or Dodging Cho'gal when he is empowered by the Fire element prevents the fire damage, although Im not sure if Blocking would reduce the damage, and I highly doubt it. Any mechanic that procs off a melee swing and does Magic damage when it connects (much like our own Seal system) can be avoided.

I was pretty sure this isn't true, so I did some digging in WoL and here's what I found looking at a random report:

[22:21:39.152] Cho'gall hits Kaywarrior Dodge

[22:21:40.457] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Kaywarrior 4892 (A: 19857, R: 34374)

[22:21:40.892] Cho'gall hits Kaywarrior 45745 (B: 19605)

[22:21:41.980] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Kaywarrior 24673 (R: 28556)

[22:21:42.777] Cho'gall hits Kaywarrior 22644 (B: 33967)

[22:21:44.027] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Kaywarrior 28845 (R: 22257)

[22:21:44.539] Cho'gall hits Kaywarrior Parry

[22:21:45.634] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Kaywarrior 25109 (A: 4047, R: 22497)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As one who plays a healing toon as well, I see the advantage of Paladins as tanks being that they are able to mitigate damage through blocking into a predictable curve. We can use Holy Shield now to slow down that damage even more than it did before, but it will be inactive for at least 20s at a time. We still have our other cooldowns that we are used to using for large spikes of damage. If we stack the CDs, we can effectively stop damage on us long enough for healers to help the rest of the raid.

With a 30s CD, it would seem that using it as often as possible is the best option. If its timing is not ideal, we still have our other fallbacks that we are used to using. Furthermore, it could easily work opposite the WoG CD to keep our hp around the 75-100% mark. Keeping it on CD will help insure that healers do not have to expend more mana than necessary.

Before this change, a healer could simply spam their efficient heals on us to keep us up at full. After the change, our hp bar is now more "spikey" and healers occasionally have to use a bigger heal in order to do that. But we have 1 more tool to reduce these spikes, and it gives us more flexibility in how we survive the fights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With a 30s CD, it would seem that using it as often as possible is the best option.

I have to disagree, using it as often as possible would result in it not being available for use when it is most needed. I would not advise saving it for extended periods of time, however simply using it once it is off cooldown is wasting a lot of utility. The best use for this ability I believe, is for any boss ability or fight mechanic that happens frequently, or is not worth blowing a major cooldown on. It should only be used as soon as available if you are certain that a more useful time to use it will not occur in the next 20 seconds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To bring an end to your endless discussion i will tell you how I used HS during Hardemodes the last week.

Playing at 95% avoidance (+masteryfood+masteryelixir+armor metagem) 10man.

Not using Eternal Glory and Guarded by the Light since you'll need all the damage you can possibly bring.

Shanox HC (bosstank): save HS for when your stacks get too high or the boss enrages due too the add being too far away from him.(situational use)

Beth'tilac HC (bosstank): save HS for when your healer is unable to "climb up" the net in time. You are able to use it on every tankswitch in p2. (situational use in p1, use on cooldown in p2)

Lory Rhyolith HC (one-tank strategy): use HS on cooldown since you will have to tank smaller hits pretty much the whole time in p1 and, if you can, make sure it is ready in p2. (use on cooldown)

Baleroc HC (one-tank strategy): since you can't block decimationblades and the hellscreams reach masterytrinket nearly covers all infernoblades you should save HS for all normal hits especially a blocked hit right after the last decimationblade (which drops you to about 1%-10% health if not dodged/parried) can be a lifesaver. (situational use)

Alysrazor HC (reforged/gemmed to lvl 87 hit and expertise cap in order to down the adds in time): save HS for when your add is about to throw a tantrum or already threw one. you won't need it during the actual bosstanking phase. Your guardian and DP will cover those 10-15 secs. (situational use)

Majordomo Staghelm HC (one-tank strategy): use HS on cooldown during scorpion phase. during kitty phase save HS for when your raid is unable to kill the adds in time and you have to tank more than one of it at the same time. (situational use)

In my opinion the situational use of HS overweights a 100% uptime in most cases but you are free to make your own experiences. Since we wiped to Majordomo at 8% I can't give you any information regarding HS during the Ragnaros encounter on heroic difficulty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
but either the 1% block value or 2% armor is worth more reduction than the mastery on the fleet meta. Not worth giving up to block cap.

I'm no expert at the math, but I'm curious why the [Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond] provies more reduction than the 2% armor. The Eternal requires that you block, which for me happens about 55% of the time, but even with a block, 1% increased value, lets say a hit for 80k, 30% block = 24k, the gem will stop an additional 800 dmg. Would it not be better to have a consistent reduction on blocked and non blocked hits?

EDIT: With Base Armor of 35891 my inc dmg is reduced by 57.93%, the 2% gem takes me to 36604 at 58.40%

Half a percent of the full 80k hit (from my previous example) is worth 400 mitigation but it's constant. not dependant on a block

Perhaps someone better with numbers can edit my math

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The values are different for different levels of avoidance / CTC. The 1% block meta gets better with higher CTC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm no expert at the math, but I'm curious why the [Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond] provies more reduction than the 2% armor. The Eternal requires that you block, which for me happens about 55% of the time, but even with a block, 1% increased value, lets say a hit for 80k, 30% block = 24k, the gem will stop an additional 800 dmg. Would it not be better to have a consistent reduction on blocked and non blocked hits?

EDIT: With Base Armor of 35891 my inc dmg is reduced by 57.93%, the 2% gem takes me to 36604 at 58.40%

Half a percent of the full 80k hit (from my previous example) is worth 400 mitigation but it's constant. not dependant on a block

Perhaps someone better with numbers can edit my math

In your example, with your gear, you only have roughly a 67% chanche of getting hit at all, and of those, you will block a further 55% of the total, or more accurately, of the attacks that damage you, you will block 55/67 = 82% of them. So with the block value meta, you would stop an extra ~800 damage on 82% of the attacks that damage you. Whereas with the armor meta, you would stop ~400 damage on 100% of the attacks that damage you.

edit: didn't actually check your math for the armour meta improvement... see post below for correct numbers.

edit 2:

Looks like you were saying 80k pre mitigation (not that it matters, you'll get the same results regardless of damage size), so here's what we get, also including with Holy Shield, which improves the value of the block even more:

With Block Value Meta

Post Armour Hit: 80 000*0.5793 = 33 656

Average With Blocking: 33 656*( (0.69 * 0.55 / 0.67) + (1 - 0.55 / 0.67) ) = 25091

With Holy Sheild: 33 656*( (0.49 * 0.55 / 0.67) + (1 - 0.55 / 0.67) ) = 19565

With Armour Meta

Post Armour Hit: 80 000*0.584 = 33 280

Average With Blocking: 33280*( (0.7 * 0.55 / 0.67) + (1 - 0.55 / 0.67) ) = 25084

With Holy Shield: 33280*( (0.5 * 0.55 / 0.67) + (1 - 0.55 / 0.67) ) = 19620

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To fix an error in the posts above this one about the metas, an attack would have to have a base damage of 190k to be the 80k post mitigation strike you use. 190000*((1-.5793)-(1-.584)) = 893. And of the 67% of attacks that land, you block 55% of them.

((.55 / .67) * .7 * 893) + (1 - (.55 / .67)) * 893 = 673 damage on average.

800*.82= 656. So at 55% block, the armor meta is better.

They match up within 1 damage at 56% block.

Using a well geared tank's profile who stacks stamina instead of mastery(the worst case gear scenario), the block meta matches the armor one dead on. Unless you have a combination of weak gear and stamina gems, the block meta should win. Note that there are attacks which are off the combat table that additional armor would help mitigate. However, for the vast majority of people who come here, the block meta will be superior.

Edit: I am aware the hit size doesn't matter, I was just trying to fix the numbers used in the posts above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference in meta gems doesn't depend on hit size. You can derive an expression that relates which one reduces overall damage taken more effectively, and that expression depends only on your armor, avoidance, block chance, block value, and game-defined constants.


Ra/Rb = (2*Ar)/(Bc)*(1.024-Av-Bv*Bc)/(1.02*Ar+K)
[/code]

Ar is your armor

Bc is your block chance (decimal format, 55%=0.55)

Bv is your block value (decimal format)

Av is your total avoidance (decimal format)

K is the armor constant, which is 32573

Ra and Rb are the damage reduction of the armor and block meta gems, respectively. If the ratio Ra/Rb is greater than 1, the armor meta is more effective, if it's less than 1 the block meta is more effective.

I've already shown that for Av=0.35, Bc=0.55, and Bv=0.30 (no Holy Shield), the two metas are almost identical, and that the block meta pulls ahead for higher Bv (basically any model of Holy Shield usage). At lower avoidance/block levels, the armor meta has a slight lead for low Bv.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly, I'd like to apologise if this is shown elsewhere, but so far I haven't been able to find any recent confirmation (possibly because it has not changed) on how melee swings against you work. When there is a melee swing, does it roll against Avoidance -> Armor Reduction -> Block -> Absorb effects? If not, then what is the correct order?

Additionally, regardless of the order in which it rolls, does armor play any roll in reducing damage if you block an attack? (In other words does having armor reducing damage done to you by 60%, reduce an incoming hit of say 20k to 8k, and then if blocked further reduce the damage by another 2.4k; meaning you only take a 5.6k hit?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Armor reduction isn't part of the combat table (though it can screw with how WoL will report hits vs blocks). Since damage reduction is multiplicative, it doesn't matter if it is calculated before or after block/dodge/parry/miss. Of whatever damage is left after armor and block/avoidance, absorbs (such as PW:Shield) are calculated. Miss/dodge/parry > block > hit.

Armor clearly works on blocked attacks. We have around 60% dmg reduction from armor, and only 30% from a block, so if it didn't, blocked attacks would hit almost twice as hard as unblocked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When there is a melee swing, does it roll against Avoidance -> Armor Reduction -> Block -> Absorb effects? If not, then what is the correct order?

Dodge/Parry/Block/Miss are all on one roll, hence why you can have full Combat Table Coverage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.