Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ralask

Lady Vashj

1272 posts in this topic

Was going to make a paint drawing, but it seems totally worthless to. It's quite possible to have melee dominate their spawns. We had myself and two rogues on a side, and the WF totem was in the middle. With it they soloed their own tainted elementals while keeping up with their own spawns.

It's obviously possible for a melee class to control a quadrant. No one has said otherwise. All the guilds that learned phase 2 pre-2.1 did it this way.

My only point is that over the course of 4.25 minutes or however long phase 2 lasts, mobs will spawn with a total hp of X. All of those need to die, and the only way to accomplish that is to deal X damage total. Ideally you want to do as much of X as possible within that 4.25-minute period so that you can focus on Vashj herself in Phase 3.

A rogue can kill elementals, and can contribute a fair bit towards X in that setting. But I don't think it's arguable that the rogue would be doing much more damage if he were perfectly stationary for 35 seconds, with totems and battle shout and maybe LotP, performing efficient skill cycles on a fully sundered and debuffed mob. A rogue who runs from elemental to elemental killing them as they spawn is going to contribute less to X than a rogue who stays on an Elite and then spends 3 seconds turning to the new one as it arrives.

On the other hand, a hunter who stands in the middle of a wide swath of the stairs, sending his pet on elementals and pretty much constantly shooting something, is also going to be doing less damage than he would be doing if he were stationary in the middle, with his pet on the Elite, and shooting Elites/Striders. But the damage difference for him will be smaller than for the rogue.

You don't take rogues off elemental duty because they're bad at it. You do it because they're even better at naga duty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We used 6 melee covering the elemental spawns, 5 rogues 1 fury warrior. We also used one 50/11/0 specced mage kiting the striders and building threat while the other casters nuked the Naga, when the Naga was low, they moved on to the strider and killed it.

She is still a very bugged boss, Striders spawning and roaming into "evade-spots" causing her to regen back 30% HP, and after that she would stand in the middle throwing Forked Lightning at people while NOT being 'immune', hitting people in melee. We suffered from alot of random disconnects aswell, dont know if that's her fault or if it's their sloppy connection.

Needless to say, one of the more interesting fights I've seen so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We haven't really changed our setup since the 2.0 attempts, but looking at these assignments makes me think it might not be all that optimal. We have melee cover water elementals and tainted. Warlocks, Mages, and Shadowpriests do all the work on striders/elites, striders kited with CoEx (one unsalved afflic lock), mind flay, and HoJ. When she respawns we usually have 1-2 elites still up, but there certainly are not any water elementals that have made it through. We've found it more productive to simply offtank the elites for the duration of stage 3, assign 3 long ranged dps to bats (hunters, fire mages), and everyone else pounds on Vash. Never have reached the soft enrage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hot fix just went live for Vashj phase2.

- During Phase 2 of the Lady Vashj encounter in Serpentshrine Cavern, there was a significant chance that a Coilfang Strider could spawn at a particular point that would cause the creature to evade. The Strider evading would then reset the entire encounter prematurely. We've made a modification to the spawn point that should prevent this behavior.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im not sure if people know, but you can put group loot on and change it with a script to make the spawns "group lootable", seeing as we tank naga's in the middle we just have a tank roll need and pop it in whilst everyone else passes. Clever use of game mechanics?

/script SetLootThreshold(0)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure that is the intended strategy, otherwise they would have given you some way to throw the Tainted Core to another player...

But yeah, I'm sure a lot of guilds will call it a clever use of game mechanics to make themselves feel better about exploiting something that is so obviously not intended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found that hilarious when I first heard about it, and I think most of my raid group did too. Obviously it's an exploit, and not something I'd actually do, but I still find it funny. Throwing the Cores isn't exactly particularly challenging, though. (Except for that one time someone threw a Core to the warlock kiting striders... pure genius I tell you.) If you're going to exploit, you may as well get some real advantage out of it.

Also what happens when someone d/c's and you have to wait for their roll to time out...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its worse than hydross nature zerg, and not simple to fix.

They could have the tainted elementals drop an object which is scripted so that when interacted with, gives the tainted core to the interactor and dissapears (like soulwell). No loot box therefore no loot rules. Hotfixable?

(we killed using nature zerg so i'm not acting innocent)

Also what happens when someone d/c's and you have to wait for their roll to time out...?
Yep a long wait for timeout message.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Throwing the Cores isn't exactly particularly challenging, though. (Except for that one time someone threw a Core to the warlock kiting striders... pure genius I tell you.)

We had someone throw a core to one of our warlocks(Rikktor!) when his bags were completely full once. That was sweet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The obvious:

Phase 1 is stupidly easy.

Phase 3 is basically a check to see if you have survived Phase 2 with 20+ players up.

Phase 2 is the entire fight.

The way I see this fight, the hardest part of the fight is allocating your DPS classes to the appropriate adds based on their strengths, and maximizing DPS. I think Warlocks are great for Elementals. I know a lot of guilds prefer melee, but for a single player to provide a wide area of coverage, having ranged attacks is a huge plus. Also, DoTs do the most damage in relation to its casting time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do most guilds put DPS on the bats or just leave them alone completely.

We went into Phase 3 with 25 up and 3 nagas (one at 15%) up, we burned down the nagas as fast as possible and went onto Vashj, we wiped at 11% enrage and I felt we lost a lot of damage due to the melee and the rest of the raid having to move around so frequently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Im not sure if people know, but you can put group loot on and change it with a script to make the spawns "group lootable", seeing as we tank naga's in the middle we just have a tank roll need and pop it in whilst everyone else passes. Clever use of game mechanics?

/script SetLootThreshold(0)

This is pretty much the funniest thing I've ever heard. Not sure if it's even worth the trouble to do it, though, considering how often we have someone offline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me it's just an issue of mobility. Ranged can take down pretty much any elemental without having to move at all. Warlocks, as noted, are extremely efficient at just dotting them up and letting them die on their own accord. I'm hanging out near Vashj DPS'ing Striders for the most part, but it's trivial for me to toss in a SWD on any that look like they are going to make it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
its worse than hydross nature zerg, and not simple to fix.

How is something that has such a minor effect on the fight worse than something that completely changed it's nature?

Throwing cores is easy - not throwing cores is even easier. Not a huge difference between doing it one way or the other, except missing out on a bit of fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rogues should be on the nagas, and warlocks on the elementals. You increase both classes dps by significant amounts with this setup. Because most people tailor their strategies to videos - ones that were made before 2.1, they are using rather sub-optimal strats.

Our rogue dps almost quaded when we moved them onto nagas... our warlocks went up almost two fold by dotting almost 4 mobs at a time.

Its a massive win-win situation.

Don't copy the videos, use simple theorycraft here.

However, if you insist on having rogues on the elementals, I've seen guilds do this strategy, and enter phase 2 with 2 striders and 2 full nagas up, still kill both while in phase 3, and then proceed to kill the boss. So you don't have to keep up to win. That is also a fallacy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My guild has done a couple of days on Vashj and we've only just now figured out how to make the Melee on the elementals and casters on the elites strategy work for us. It took some fine tuning to figure out but what we came up with ultimately is a strategy that is very unforgiving and somewhat subject to bad luck. What usually happens regarding bad luck is an elite spawns and heads to certain healers we have assinged to the edges of the steps instead of the healers in the center circle. That means, less time for DPS and occasionally a 1 shot (if im hamstringed the healers as good as dead).As such, i have been watching this thread and considering options.

I agree that melee is best on the naga now just based on theorycraft and logic. I also agree with quigon that it can be done with either strat. However, as a raid leader i need consistency. I also need a way to pitch a DPS strategy change to a group of raiders who have wiped for 2 days figuring out the best phase 2 DPS assignments with out old strat.

We bring 7 healers 16 DPS and 2 prot warriors tanking. 5 melee positioned around the room with 2 hunters on cleanup leaving 9 caster DPS for the center who alternate from elite to strider. Our DPS timing is fine with this... and our biggest problem so far has been the movement factor for rogues especially when tainted elementals spawn. In other words, they just lose too much DPS moving to the tainted spawns and we really run the risk of letting them despawn as has happened quite often (alot of L2p involved here though i would imagine.).

I can't see us changing the DPS/healer ratio at all. We don't need the healing and we can't lose any DPS. So i'm consider putting a combination of 5 locks and hunters on the elementals. We normally bring 5 melee DPS so all 5 would be on the naga. That leaves us with the mages/shadow priests and a kiting warlock on the fen strider (remaining 6 DPS, 1 is kiting though). Finding out if this allocation will work is only a matter of attempts... my bigger concern is the aggro on the fenstrider. As it stands right now, our lock has sufficient time to get aggro while the casters nuke down the naga.

If we switch to the melee covering the naga completely im worried that a lock will have trouble holding aggro resulting in a net loss of DPS on the big ones. Can anyone with experience with this method clue me in on whether or not i should even expect the lock to hold aggro? I'm guessing we really need solid stuns on the fenstriders to give him sufficient aggro time. I'm not even sure if thats enough DPS on the targets and im kind of hoping that we might even get away with only 4 Ranged DPS covering elementals but that really seems like its pushing it. I just figure if we switch to this method we can keep the healers all near the middle so i (as a tank) can go grab elites before they get 1 shotted.

Any tips would be appreciated, mainly im concerned with how i am to pitch the idea to my raiders and switch from our strategy that we can probably get by with but inconsistently at best (at least until gear makes it a a non-issue).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think melees are indeed bad to use on water elementals. Running around doesn't help much. Running around in the lower stairs area makes things worse cause that puts them out of los for a lot of healers. We have five ranged guys with high burst dmg that are spread around the stairs, destr warlocks and fire mages. They kill water elementals and tainteds when they spawn. Preferrably 2 of them help on a tainted so it 100% dies without fuckups, that's why we use 5 and not 4 people there.

Then we tank the nagas pretty much right on vashj with all our melee dps on that. The 5 guys tainted guys have 3 healers assigned to them that stand on top of the stairs, heal them and whoever is in range for them and are the tainted core buddies.

The melees dpsing the naga break for any water elemental that the 5 guys miss. Generally that only happens when a tainted spawns and they have to deal with that.

Two shadowpriests and whatever we have left from warlocks/mages and hunters are dpsing the striders, with either a hunter or spriest kiting it. I don't think it really matters which class does the kiting, as long as you have someone who can reliably do it. Hunters are decent as they have nice snap aggro. For warlocks it usually means they either dot it up first, in which case it might run to a healer, or they start with searing pain, but then they lose a bit of aggro in the long run.

Paladins using HoJ on those makes it much easier as well. Blackout procs here too so all your shadow priests should dps striders and preferrably keep Mind Flay (highest slow with 50%) up all the time.

With such a setup you give your melees minimal dps downtime, which should boost up your overall dps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also what happens when someone d/c's and you have to wait for their roll to time out...?

Not much, if its core 1-3 then you will get it after around 30sec, enough time before the last elemental.

It will only delay when it happens at the last core.

And dont know how they can fix it, maybe removing the ability to set loot treshold below x.

But we tried it out on our kills and its a bit easier with it ;). You dont have dps static waiting to throw core to someone, they can just continue dps all the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i've already stated a perfectly fine way to fix it. have the tainted elemental drop a one charge 'soulwell' which gives a tainted core. loot rules cannot effect this and i assume if they are to fix it its how they will go about it.

its just one less thing to worry about while learning the difficult phase of the fight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i've already stated a perfectly fine way to fix it. have the tainted elemental drop a one charge 'soulwell' which gives a tainted core. loot rules cannot effect this and i assume if they are to fix it its how they will go about it.

its just one less thing to worry about while learning the difficult phase of the fight

It sadly doesn't work that way. No matter how many times they've changed the Felwood plants, when you time it properly, up to today, you can still coordinate people clicking on them at the same time, and having everyone get one. I haven't tried it with a soul well, but my guess is if you coordinated 20 people clicking within ~.5 sec of each other, it would create >10 healthstones. It would still be exploitable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How is something that has such a minor effect on the fight worse than something that completely changed it's nature?

Throwing cores is easy - not throwing cores is even easier. Not a huge difference between doing it one way or the other, except missing out on a bit of fun.

It has definitely NOT a minor effect. This exploit can and will make the difference between a p3 start with 2 nagas / 1 strider up and a p3 start with 1 naga @ 50% only and this difference is what will make or break your kill.

How to fix it ? Well, it's simple, remove the /script possibilities to set the threshold under green items, it doesn't exist in the standard UI so no problem here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You would just clean up the next naga and strider and wait to use it at that point instead.

While it is clearly an exploit, if you are proficient in hot potatoe, it won't affect your time at all really, though you may opt to delay p3 for 40 seconds or so. I will admit to using the loot threshold, but for all the times we lost because she bugged in p2 or splattered the entire floor 1 minute into p3(also a bug), i really don't feel bad about it.

Yes, it should be removed, but I fail to see how they can do that without completely retooling the loot mechanics, and it probably isn't high priority on their list, seeing as how after a 3 month patch cycle, they didn't even fix 2-3 extremely major bugs until yesterday.(She also doesn't reset sometimes, forcing another wipe)

It has definitely NOT a minor effect. This exploit can and will make the difference between a p3 start with 2 nagas / 1 strider up and a p3 start with 1 naga @ 50% only and this difference is what will make or break your kill.

How to fix it ? Well, it's simple, remove the /script possibilities to set the threshold under green items, it doesn't exist in the standard UI so no problem here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, it should be removed, but I fail to see how they can do that without completely retooling the loot mechanics

make the core a chest that spawns on top of the dead elemental and opens instantly. problem solved

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
make the core a chest that spawns on top of the dead elemental and opens instantly. problem solved

Chests pop roll windows too now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.