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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs

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Rank 5: Ursol's Vortex, Bear Hug, and Demoralizing Roar could all have situational uses, but none has too much appeal for restoration.

My money is on Ursol's Vortex for resto druids now that they remade it from a onetime pull to a spawned vortex that lasts 15 seconds. We still don't know if it will slow movement for enemies within the vortex, or actually pull them in (like an AoE deathgrip) - wording does make it sound like the latter. Of the three available options this seems by far the most useful in a raid environment (I'm thinking of things like Sons of flame for Ragnaros).

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Please read at least a few posts above yours before you reply, it's been mentioned at least twice that cats are getting Thrash which puts a bleed on every affected target (as on live). Swiping thrash'd targets gets +20% damage, which resto/balance swipe won't have.

I realise(d) that. Thing is that people said we'd ignore Thrash completely if Swipe were better. You still need to get a bleed up. If Thrash is the way to do it, then it won't get ignored. Even if it's another Feral using Thrash, it's still seeing use.

It should be quite clear that Blizzard doesn't mind that situation. There's no need to Mangle if you got a bear tank and it's been that way for quite some time now. As long as an ability warrants use in enough situations, it's perfectly fine if it drops off in a more optimised composition. That's one of the benefits of a well-tailored raid group: DPS goes up beyond what you'd be able to achieve on your own.

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I realise(d) that. Thing is that people said we'd ignore Thrash completely if Swipe were better.

Fairly certain no one said that. The point was that if swipe were superior to thrash, then a feral would gain damage by having another AoE bleed spec around, since that would save him from having to thrash.

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"Balance Druid Feedback

I just wanted to drop into this thread and let you guys know that we currently plan for Moonkins to have two DoTs: Moonfire and Sunfire will be able to stack (both applied at the same time).

Lunar Shower will be working differently in the future, so it may be too early for those kinds of concerns. I don't have any details to share at the moment though.

Nature's Grace is still 15%, not 1%, that was just a tooltip issue that will be fixed soon. Revive will also be class-wide, not just for Restoration."

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When i look at the current MoP talent choices, one thing really makes me sad is the position of the treants (beeing forced to choose between the Treants and Incarnation). It is probably something personal, but i would love to have them somewhere in the next tier: it can be seen somewhat as some sort of ranged- add controll ability.

(but it's probably more a personal thing: seeing a "high-end moonkin" pop her treants whilst helping me in BFD, made the descision what to play very easy: Moonkin for life!)

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Rip, ravage and savage roar are now feral only, which basically kills kitty form for dps. Outside of stealthing or running fast, I can't see a non-feral spec using the form at all, which saddens me.

Similarly heal spells have been heavily curtailed for non-resto specs. Everyone else is down to rejuve, healing touch and tranq.

I think we should campaign for displacer beast to be non-random. Preferably a targeting circle. After all, if it's competing with mobility options, shouldn't it be a mobility option itself? Right now I think most people would prefer it to not have a teleport at all.

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Balance updates:

Changes in balance abilites:

New passive

Celestial Focus: Reduced pushback by 70% on Wrath, Starfire, Roots, Hurricane, Astral Storm, Typhoon, Hibernate Cyclone.

It seems that Astral Storm is arcane version of hurricane.

New ability:

Celestial alignment - 2 min cd. For 15 sec our spells are buffed as if they were cast in eclipse, All energy is reseted to 0, and our spells are not generating energy. Like eclipse on a wish

Changed:

Lunar shower - is no longer generating energy. yaay

Also, Incarnation now doesn't increase damage. It doubles/halves energy generation depending on if you are in Eclipse.

Edit: Calculator now shows the 15% Haste promised for entering Eclipse (NG).

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Balance updates:

Also, Incarnation now doesn't increase damage. It doubles/halves energy generation depending on if you are in Eclipse.

Edit: Calculator now shows the 15% Haste promised for entering Eclipse (NG).

It would have been good if you'd provided a link for this update, the "Zahri@TMR" means nothing to me and Google isn't helping.

Looking at the official page the wording is significantly different, I'm not sure if it's been updated again or not but I suspect your quote was paraphrasing, either by you or this Zahri@TMR person. Note that "reseted" isn't a word, I'm providing this as note as education, if you don't know it's wrong you can't correct it.

Currently the Celestial Alignment tooltip reads:

Required Level 68

Instant cast, 2 min cooldown

Grants you the simultaneous damage benefit of both

your Lunar Eclipse and Solar Eclipse, increasing

damage done by your Nature and Arcane spells by

25%. Activating this ability consumes all Lunar and

Solar Energy and prevents gaining more during its

duration. Lasts 15 sec.

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Sorry, TMR is here. The quoted post was at the end of a moderately long thread, and I don't know how to link individual posts from that site.

I'd noticed the Incarnation change, and was searching for other changes (and confirming that Incarnation was really a change) when I found that post. News wasn't up yet at MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft News and Raiding Strategies when I looked there (or my cache was showing an old page).

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The new Incarnation could be a problem... more time spent in an eclipse means less Nature's grace uptime.

It's no longer a good cooldown for pvp because you still have to cast and this time without any dmg bonus

6 energy each wrath means we need 16 wrath to exit from the eclipse, double energy while outside means we need 4 more wraths to enter lunar:

20 wraths * 1.5 sec (even more depending on haste) means we spend at least 30 sec casting wrath + 3 sec needed to refresh IS + MF, give us 12sec worth of casting time for 6starfires that generate 10 energy each

Having the Incarnation duration set to 45 sec means we get 2 eclipses, 2 euphoria, 2 nature's grace and 22spells casted under an eclipse effect.

If the effect was only to double the power generation out of eclipse we would have got 3euphoria 100%NG uptime and 17 spells casted under an eclipse effect

Add to that effect the old 20% (maybe too much) or 10% and it's a better cooldown both for PvE and for PvP especially

if used after a lunar eclipse since it would reset the starfall effect and generate things like Lunar-> starfall -> 10 sec to exit from lunar(starfall duration) -> Incarnation -> fast solar eclipse -> no NG uptime lost -> 10-20% more dmg -> fast return to lunar -> 10-20% more dmg for the remaining time of Incarnation -> one more starfall -> Astral Alignment -> lolz 1minute Eclipse uptime with double starfall and +10-20% dmg (now that would be a good burst cd for pvp / pve)

edit: thinking about it, we don't relaly care about NG if we don't need to reach an eclipse, because our dots and nukes are all affected by the eclipse we are in...even though i prefer more NG uptime to cycle faster thru eclipses and get more starfall resets

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I'm actually a little intrigued by Dream of Cenarius myself. I hope I'm not being overly optimistic in my interpretation of the third line of the tooltip, but I take that to mean that the damage and healing buffs will be separate.

If that is in fact the case, it might become practical for Resto to throw out a Wrath every 30 sec, mana and healing needs allowing of course, not so much because Wrath would be buffed, but because the next heal would.

I would, however, like to see some of the restrictions lifted on this to make it a more interesting choice for PvE ferals. Allowing this to synergize with Cenarian Ward might compel me to pick it over Renewal as a cat.

In all, my first thought when looking at the latest iteration of Druid talents was that the devs actually have gotten closer to giving each tier some compelling choice. I think it's solid design, no matter how furious it might make me when deciding between +15% speed or feral charge.

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My take as a Balance Druid.

Talents

15 - Feline Swiftness

30 - Renewal or Cenarion Ward

45 - Typhoon

60 - Interesting choices here. Sustained DPS vs 2 cooldowns.

75 - Vortex or Bash

90 - Disentanglement (Though I like the idea behind the other two)

Spells and Spec abilities

Eclipse - Provides a damage boost to respective spells. Wrath and Starfire increase the duration of Sunfire and Moonfire. To top it off it includes the Nature's Grace haste effect and Euphoria's mana regeneration when entering an eclipse state. Compressing several talents and glyphs into one ability.

Insect Swarm - We lose a DOT and gain a single target damage increase.

Shooting Stars - Now has a 20% change to proc on Moonfire/Sunfire DOT crits.

Killer Instincts - 100% of Int given as Agi when in bear or cat form.

Celestial Alignment - 15 seconds of gaining the effect of both eclipse states and Moonfire automatically applies Sunfire.

Might of Ursoc - Last Stand for druids.

Starfall - Cooldown automatically reset when entering Lunar Eclipse.

Overall I like the changes they have made. We finally gain a DPS cooldown as a baseline ability. We also gain some new interesting abilities like Might of Ursoc.

I wish they would have changed our mastery to also increase damage outside of Eclipse but I guess they like our massive swings in DPS. I am curious as to the change in Shooting Stars. At first glance it feels like a PvP nerf.

It seems they want us to play the utility role more and switch roles (at least temporarily). Killer instincts and two of the three level 90 talents are based on role switching. This will probably be helpful in PvP but not as much in raids.

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Soul of the Forest is certainly a very interesting ability, albeit at the cost of Force of Nature. It'll mean when we leave Eclipse we're only two casts away from hitting the next Eclipse, which is going to make Nature's Grace (the new equivalent, at least) uptime much easier to manage in terms of single target rotation. Couple that with only having one DOT which will automatically self-extend as you move between Eclipses and I think we're looking at a very strong single target DPS boost.

I do agree that Nature's Grace needs to be tied to Moonfire/Sunfire, however.

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Another thing I noticed, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Displacer Beast used to be up to 20 yards in a random direction and now says "up to 20 yards forward." This was a needed change imo. I don't mind not knowing exactly how far I'll blink, but as long as I can aim myself in a specific direction, this becomes a much more appealing mobility talent.

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I really can't believe that they're going to retrieve the old version of nature's grace and let balance druids loose AGAIN our control over it. How many times did the moonkin comunity explain all the pain in the ass that was that? So in MoP, we get back on doing a special strat ONLY for moonkins so we don't waste 15% spell haste every time we get into eclipse and a "dance-phase" of the boss begins? How fucking hard is to code into the game that the first dot that activates Nature's Grace also gets the haste benefit?

I'm very sorry for the crying but really, with all the good changes that moonkins are going to get, that seems that finally we are going to get considered by the devs as a damage-dealer and not an accident, why? Why this? Can someone please explain me this sudden change of mind? Am I missing some big rock here?

It's still under your control. Just hold off on entering Eclipse if it's going to be that big of a deal. It's not a random proc like the old Eclipse design used to be (which is what we complained about to begin with).

I would also like to point out the peculiar way that Blizzard chose to reduce the power of Solar cleave. Insect Swarm boosts the damage of all our spells on the target, but we can only have it on one target at a time. This puts the burden on us to maintain a debuff that does nothing but buff our damage, which they wanted to stray away from; however, the intent is that in so doing, only one target can receive the full fury of our damage output. All other incidental targets take the unbuffed damage. I would've preferred a more passive way of doing things instead of giving us an Inquisition-style button to press, but it works quite well for the stated goal of reducing the power of multi-dotting.

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I believe what Panthros is trying to say is:

The problem:

Cast IS > Procs NG > IS does not benefit from NG (which is why IS is always cast first)

Cast MF/SF > benefits from NG

What is desired:

Cast IS or MF/SF > Procs NG > IS/MF/SF benefit from NG

Without another DoT to cast, we'd have to cast MF/SF twice (first to proc NG then another to benefit from it). However, it seems that entering Eclipse automatically gives you NG so perhaps this isn't a problem anymore - in reference to the "Eclipse (passive)" gained at level 10 in the new MoP model. Two things:

1) Could this imply that resto won't have NG anymore?

2) Does MF/SF not proc NG anymore? For those cases where we'd stay in Eclipse and just try to multi-DoT.

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Resto won't have NG anymore, since it's baked into Eclipse which is Balance only.

They could couple NG back onto MF or SuF, assuming the refreshing works like the current Glyph of Starfire. Of course, then the only control you're getting is the haste for nukes, since the refreshing would recalculate the DoTs for haste upon every refresh. Something to investigate later.

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They are making Eclipse much stronger (20% at level 10, 20% at level 80, + 2.5%/point of Mastery). If that sticks around, along with the shorter non-Eclipse periods, Balance spells outside of Eclipse are going to have to be extremely weak.

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They are making Eclipse much stronger (20% at level 10, 20% at level 80, + 2.5%/point of Mastery). If that sticks around, along with the shorter non-Eclipse periods, Balance spells outside of Eclipse are going to have to be extremely weak.

Actually, the base Eclipse is down from current (25%->20%), and the 20% at level 80 is the base 8 mastery. So we get less base Eclipse damage, but our scaling is improved (2%->2.5%). This actually makes mastery competitive with haste, and in certain conditions, appears to make it better than haste. In addition, my previous statement in this post was wrong; I had said that we would get more Eclipse uptime. That appears to be incorrect, and the Eclipse uptimes sim to be slightly down from live. I also just reread the new Shooting Stars and it is 20% chance on dot crit, which would result in a proc chance that is similar to that on live, but should improve crit scaling very slightly.

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Dopefish,

I haven't seen your simulation, but it is clear that the Eclipse cycle should be shorter. You only cast two DoTs per cycle (instead of the current 4+). Starsurge energy is up so that will speed up cycles. However, Soul of the Forest (the likely choice for a patchwerk fight) and Celestial Awareness should both help improve uptime. It would be nice if they fix Efflorescence so that it could proc in the 36-99 energy range.

Note that the new DoT rotation will be to cast Sunfire as soon as you get Solar. It should last well into Lunar. You should cast Moonfire as soon as you leave Solar. It should last well into Solar (although the DD, and first several ticks won't benefit from Eclipse). With 50%+ uptime on Sunfire, and 80%+ uptime on Moonfire, I would expect to see some increase in Shooting Stars procs.

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Dopefish,

I haven't seen your simulation, but it is clear that the Eclipse cycle should be shorter. You only cast two DoTs per cycle (instead of the current 4+). Starsurge energy is up so that will speed up cycles. However, Soul of the Forest (the likely choice for a patchwerk fight) and Celestial Awareness should both help improve uptime. It would be nice if they fix Efflorescence so that it could proc in the 36-99 energy range.

Note that the new DoT rotation will be to cast Sunfire as soon as you get Solar. It should last well into Lunar. You should cast Moonfire as soon as you leave Solar. It should last well into Solar (although the DD, and first several ticks won't benefit from Eclipse). With 50%+ uptime on Sunfire, and 80%+ uptime on Moonfire, I would expect to see some increase in Shooting Stars procs.

The cycle will be shorter, for sure; rotation durations are considerably down from live due to the Starsurge energy change and not as many dot casts, and Nature's Grace uptimes are correspondingly way up. However, your post seems to assume two things: 1) That Moonfire and Sunfire dots are not mutually exclusive, and 2) that the dot will dynamically update its damage when we enter Eclipse. Neither is true on live, and in the interest of a conservative estimation, I currently have the simulator programmed to cast Sunfire when you hit Solar and Moonfire when you hit Lunar. If my assumptions hold, then 20% raid-buffed crit chance will result in a proc rate essentially half of that on live.

Edit: As for Euphoria, I agree that it'd be nice, but I think Blizzard has it limited that way in order to provide a measure of determinism to the Eclipse cycle. You don't want to be stuck casting a Starfire when Solar just procced, as that is a huge waste of damage. However, upping the limit from 35 to 55 energy would work perfectly well.

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