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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs

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There is no Rupture and yet Assassination gets Venomous Wounds and Sub gets Serrated Blades which either indicates that they forgot to add rupture or they are redesigning said abilities. I'm also not seeing Energetic Recovery.

I think it's safe to say that a large portion of this was just straight converted from current talent trees and that there are still changes coming; there was a blue post indicating that DP was being removed and a new poison system was going to be put in place and yet we still see DP listed as a class ability. The only real changes (already mentioned) are materializing Murderous Intent into an ability (currently hitting harder than Backstab), limiting some abilities to specs (Backstab and Envenom), and making RS and a nerfed Fleet Footed baseline. Other than Energetic Recovery and above mentioned Master Poisoner there are a number of DPS talents missing as well

Assassination:

Lethality

Ruthlessness

Puncturing Wounds

Cold Blood

Vile Poisons

Master Poisoner

Combat:

Improved Sinister Strike

Precision

Aggression

Improved Slice and Dice

Savage Combat

Subtlety:

Improved Ambush

Energetic Recovery

Slaughter from the Shadows

Elusiveness

Initiative

I would guess that "Improved <ability>" talents are being removed as passive skills (Improved Recuperate remains as a talent). Savage Combat was already suggested for removal in the revamp preview of raid debuffs. Master Poisoner missing coincides with the suggestion that DP was being removed. There was a discussion a while back about the questionable philosophy of Energetic Recovery, I would guess with the advent of Leeching Poison, the combination of the two would be ridiculous. I think most can agree that Cold Blood was a pretty poor cooldown and that it is a good thing to see that it is missing.

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I think it's safe to say that a large portion of this was just straight converted from current talent trees and that there are still changes coming; there was a blue post indicating that DP was being removed and a new poison system was going to be put in place and yet we still see DP listed as a class ability. The only real changes (already mentioned) are materializing Murderous Intent into an ability, limiting some abilities to specs (Backstab and Envenom), and making RS and a nerfed Fleet Footed baseline.

Didn't they remove only DP stacks?

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In the current form of pvp right now, not having shs or prep is definitely a game breaker. I think Blizzard will realize this soon enough and fix it. Prep does not only reset Vanish, smoke bomb and sprint but also cloak and evasion. It such a powerful talent that nothing can really compete with it, especially not 2 'mobility' talents.

Having been around the rogue community off and on for years, I can guarantee Blizzard is keenly aware of the potency of Preparation, seeing as they have nerfed the crap out of it numerous times...

- Level 70 - Took Blade Flurry out from rogues mace stunning people to death

- Took Cloak of Shadows out of it so rogues aren't basically invincible vs. casters for ~10 seconds

It's purely speculative, but their recent change to allow players to earn Conquest Points from UN-rated battlegrounds [ie, without doing RBGs or Arena] may be a reason they'd be hesitant to give any leeway back with Preparation. Prep is a staple in Arenas for sure, and to a lesser extent in Rated BGs (Smoke Bomb-ing FCs), but it's far less vital in a simple BG match, which is what I suspect a majority of players will flock to if they aren't Arena fans and are frustrated trying to find a good RBG group.

Minor side note: Prep resets Shadowstep, not Cloak*

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I don't see the daggers requirement on the new Mutilate. But since Dispatch (the new <35% backstab) has said requirement, I guess it only means you can now use non-daggers while leveling as Assasination.

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I don't see the daggers requirement on the new Mutilate. But since Dispatch (the new <35% backstab) has said requirement, I guess it only means you can now use non-daggers while leveling as Assasination.

I'm sure that's probably a tooltip error.

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I can't seem to find Rupture in any of the class, spec or all ability lists of all three specs either at the moment after briefing skimming through.

It (rupture) isn't listed although that is most likely an error as serrated blades(Sub) still has a 20% chance per CP to refresh Rupture; as well as Venomous Wounds (Ass.) still exists (base damage increased from 675 to 855).

The synergy of Assassination(overkill/Venomous Wounds) with subterfuge, Prep, and Shadow Dance has alot of potential for a tremendous amount of increased energy regen thoughout an encounter.

Envenom obviously isn't what the future envenom will be, based on their stated design intent of using 1 damage/1 utility poison, as well as removing the ramp up time for DP stacks. I'm very curious to see how that plays out and what the overarching effects will be on the rotation.

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Killing Spree, as I interpret it from their explanation at Blizzcon, is improved in such a way that you will not jump to multiple nearby targets by default. If you want to stay on the same target the entire time, do nothing. However, if you want to jump around to multiple targets, you can press the killing spree button again and you will jump each time you press it. You're limited to 5 jumps at 1 jump per second. Generating 5 combo points is just their way of making sure that your last target has 5 points when you finish. You won't be able to do anything else, such as finishers, during Killing Spree so you'll only have the 5 to spend when it's done.

That's my take on it anyways.

It looks like Overkill is still in its current form on the list, meaning that Prep will be a 'must have' for Assassination since it resets Vanish, which is unfortunate.

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Sub really looks like a mess right now especially for leveling and PvP. Backstab is delayed until 40, Subterfuge looks like a must have from the first tier for them and hemo is the level 10 spec move with no bleeds since rupture is missing entirely at the moment. With a quick eyeball it looks like assassination is going to be king of PvP by a long shot, so sub will probably drop off the radar again for people playing it.

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I would encourage people to avoid reading too much into the current state of the talents posted. Its not even up-to-date with what they've announced in terms of changes to Bandit's Guile and damage poisons, and has obvious glaring omissions (like Rupture). Hence, I wouldn't read too much into the current oddities of the trees. Yes, Revealing Strike is currently strictly better than Sinister Strike. Yes, Hemo is now strictly better than Backstab. Yes, Overkill still exists, Bandit's Guile still sucks, and so on. What we have is a direct port of our more interesting abilities into the new system, which means that the changes they have promised us are not yet present, and the absence of some of our more boring DPS talents (like Improved Sinister Strike and Opportunity) creates some oddities in terms of relative ability power. It is absolutely the case that it would be highly undesirable for things to launch in this form. It is also the case that they almost certainly won't. So I would encourage people to focus on what's actually changed rather than what has stayed the same, and not worry excessively about the exact numerical tuning of abilities at this stage.

Personally, I think the most interesting changes so far are that the run speed bonus of Fleet Footed is now a passive benefit for all specs, and that the positional dependence of Assassination's execute mechanic has been removed.

Killing Spree, as I interpret it from their explanation at Blizzcon, is improved in such a way that you will not jump to multiple nearby targets by default. If you want to stay on the same target the entire time, do nothing. However, if you want to jump around to multiple targets, you can press the killing spree button again and you will jump each time you press it. You're limited to 5 jumps at 1 jump per second. Generating 5 combo points is just their way of making sure that your last target has 5 points when you finish. You won't be able to do anything else, such as finishers, during Killing Spree so you'll only have the 5 to spend when it's done.

This is not my understanding. From reading the ability and from talking to some people at Blizzcon, I believe the current design is that each jump of KSp provides 5 combo points, such when you use it you will alternate KSp jumps with finishers. This will only be remotely usable if they remove KSp from the GCD; I don't know if that's planned or not. Frankly, I think the free finishers (echoing our legendary proc) is a more interesting cooldown without all the jumping around; I suppose its helpful for cheap multiDoTing of packs, allowing a 5pt rupture on 5 different targets, but all in all I'd rather have free finishers as a distinct mechanic from KSp.

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Having been around the rogue community off and on for years, I can guarantee Blizzard is keenly aware of the potency of Preparation, seeing as they have nerfed the crap out of it numerous times...

Minor side note: Prep resets Shadowstep, not Cloak*

Your are thinking of the current iteration of Preparation in game now 4.2/4.3. Reread the tooltip for the MoP version. Prep resets:

Sprint

Vanish

Cloak

Evasion

Dismantle

Smokebomb

Also, Cloak as it is listed maintains it's 2min cd, and elusiveness(sub) is no where to be found resulting in Sub losing more of its CD reduction ability and a pvp nerf (if they don't port all the cd reduction/damage boost talents at a later date)

Personally, I think the most interesting changes so far are that the run speed bonus of Fleet Footed is now a passive benefit for all specs, and that the positional dependence of Assassination's execute mechanic has been removed.

the addition of fleet footed is absolutely a huge benifit for all the specs, I am however, disappointed to see the increased healing received removed from the ability. With the advent of leeching poison (if the 1damage/1utility poison plan does happen) it most likely won't be too missed.

edit for grammer

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Killing Spree, as I interpret it from their explanation at Blizzcon, is improved in such a way that you will not jump to multiple nearby targets by default. If you want to stay on the same target the entire time, do nothing. However, if you want to jump around to multiple targets, you can press the killing spree button again and you will jump each time you press it. You're limited to 5 jumps at 1 jump per second. Generating 5 combo points is just their way of making sure that your last target has 5 points when you finish. You won't be able to do anything else, such as finishers, during Killing Spree so you'll only have the 5 to spend when it's done.

I too interpreted this as Aldriana did, but I kinda like this version a bit better. One would think "less dps" for this version, but it's reasonable to assume the bottom line would be nearly the same, since Blizzard does attempt balancing. I like this better because it's more controlled than KS ever has been, and it suffers less from potential latency issues, as well as the fact that the envenom buff won't be clipped, so it should be easier to balance between specs.

the addition of fleet footed is absolutely a huge benifit for all the specs, I am however, disappointed to see the increased healing received removed from the ability. With the advent of leeching poison (if the 1damage/1utility poison plan does happen) it most likely won't be too missed.

I am personally excited the most about Leeching Poison, not so much by the talent itself, but because I really like the idea of conditional rewards for rogues. I was disappointed to see enveloping shadows disappear, but I'm all for it being replaced with a heal connected to dps. It's rewarding people who play the class correctly with additional survivability. Anything that rewards success with a greater chance of continued success makes me a happy camper.

In the same vein, I'm still hoping in my heart of hearts for something like bandit's guile, except instead of giving extra damage, it lengthens our timed-based finishers, like Rupture, SnD, etc. This would allow the dps/energy of Ruptures, etc. to increase as the fight goes on, providing a very slow, slight, damage ramp with an increase in rotation stability. Anyway, the point is I like that direction, and I hope they continue in it before anything MoP goes live.

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So, new talent trees are up (here). I haven't had a chance to pick through them in detail, but there are two changes that immediately jump out at me.

1) Elusiveness replaces Improved Recuperate at Tier 3. As I discussed here, Leeching Poison and Cheat Death are reasonably well balanced against each other, but Improved Recuperate was woefully underpowered (at least from a PvE perspective). They have replaced it with Elusiveness, which is basically a mini shield wall - 30% damage reduction from all sources (instead of just AoE) for 5 seconds when you feint. This is definitely an improvement - the opportunity cost is a lot lower than for Improved Recuperate - but I'm not entirely sold on it being a legitimate competitor to Cheat Death and Leeching Poison yet. Leeching Poison, in my current gear, would heal for something in excess of 4k HPS, so unless the improved Feint is preventing at least 40k damage per usage - which works out to a raw hit of around 150k - its probably better to just take the healing. And I can't think of too many times when that actually happens. There might be some circumstantial usages for it, but I suspect for the most part rogues will be sticking with Leeching Poison and/or Cheat Death.

2) All three Tier 6 talents have been replaced. Shuriken Toss gives us the ability to maintain combo point generation at range, for use when a target is out of range for a moderate period of time. Versatility allows Redirect usage limited only by the GCD, which will make heavy target-switching fights more manageable. But I think the jewel of the new options - and the one we'll wind up taking on the vast majority of fights - is Anticipation, which gives two powerful advantages. First, it lets us execute perfect cycles. No longer will one have to skip RvS as Combat or finish at 4CP at Mutilate - you will always be able to do 5pt finishers without wasting combo points. And if you're at 5 CP but not ready to refresh Rupture or SnD for another few seconds, you can just throw an extra move or two to kill time instead of having to use a different finisher and refresh your buff/debuff with an undersized finisher. It gives more control than we've ever had about what size finisher you want to use when, and will thus result in a nontrivial increase to our single target DPS.

Additionally, it gives us a degree of controllable burst that we've never had before - you can build up 5 stacks of Anticipation on a target in order to release two finishers in a row. It looks like you may be able to build up Anticipation stacks on one target and then switch to another, thus getting an implicit redirect of 5 extra combo points the first time you do a finisher. Burst of that sort is something we've been lacking for a long time, so its good to see them add something to address it.

All in all, I think Anticipation (and to a lesser extent, Versatility) are the most fun and interesting talents they've proposed to date, and I'm very encouraged to see it. The rest of the tree still needs some work, and Anticipation might need better competition within its tier to keep all PvE rogues from taking it - but its definitely a step in the right direction.

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For what it's worth, we may be seeing our first taste of raid utility via Shroud of Concealment (level 87). Hard to say how useful it will be though, as Smoke Bomb didn't get much action. I don't expect much though.

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I also noticed they added the changes to most spells like;

30: Swiftblade's Cunning: Increases the melee and ranged attack speed of all party and raid members by 10%

Energetic recovery was changes to be based off of slice and dice,

72: Shadow Walk: Significantly increases the effectiveness of stealth.

seems like they change poisons to casts that coat your weapon automatically.

Expose armor no longer requires combo points

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A few more things that changed:

  • Deadly poison puts a dot on the target on first application, and each subsequent application simply deals damage (equal to IP damage, from what I can see), removing the "poison on other weapon" bit.
  • SnD is now 40 seconds baseline.
  • Swiftblade's Cunning is our new raid buff - 10% attack speed.
  • Wound Poison no longer deals damage and it's moved to the "non-lethal" cathegory.
  • Rupture is 20 seconds baseline.
  • Fleet Footed is now passive for all specs.
  • Fan of Knives does not depend on weapon damage, probably scales with AP now.
  • Feint no longer reduces threat (as if anyone cares anymore).
  • Shadow Walk - 1 min cd, increases stealth effectiveness for 6 seconds.
  • Glyph of Sinister Strike was baked into the Revealing Strike buff - now apart from increasing finisher effectiveness, it gives SS a 20% chance to add an extra CP for 18 seconds.
  • Energetic recovery is now paired with SnD instead of Recuperate. Gives 8 energy every 2 seconds.
  • Shadow Dance is 8 seconds baseline, and the cost of Ambush while it's active is reduces by 20.

Expose armor no longer requires combo points
As far as I remember, the 12% armour debuffs are going away for good, at least that's what I read in the raid buff design blue post a few month ago.

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Not sure all of these are actually new, but they're all things I don't remember seeing before:

  • Swiftblade's Cunning - Rogues now passively give Windfury just by being rogues.
  • Expose Armor - Now works like sunder. 25 energy to apply one stack of armor debuff, stacks three times. Appears that it also shares stacks with Sunder and similar effects.
  • Blind - Now lasts one minute.
  • Feint - No longer reduces threat; damage reduction only lasts 5 seconds.
  • Shadow Walk - New ability which increases stealth effectiveness for 6 seconds.
  • Shiv - There's some reference to applying a "concentrated form" of your utility poison. There don't appear to be any details about this, but my guess is that it might, for instance, cause Crippling Poison to root your opponent briefly.
  • Shroud of Concealment - Gives your entire group stealth for a short period of time.
  • Revealing Strike - Gives the benefit of Glyph of Sinister Strike in addition to increasing finisher damage. Its unclear as yet whether it still is consumed by doing a finisher.
  • Restless Blades - Also reduces the cooldown of Sprint.
  • Premed - I don't see stealth listed as a requirement. Might just be an unclear tooltip, or it might have changed.
  • Energetic Recovery - Now works off SnD instead of Recup.

Three main comments here.

1) Between Sap and Blind, we can now keep a target out of the fight almost as well as a mage. This will be useful in 5mans.

2) Shadow Walk and Shroud of Concealment are flavorful, but its not clear to me that they're actually useful in the current game. Does this portend broader applications of stealth in the game, or is it just supposed to be flavorful?

3) Sub no longer weaves Recup. Definitely simplifies the cycle. Might make it a bit *too* simple, though.

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[*]Blind - Now lasts one minute.
Blind already lasts 1 minute on NPCs. This was changed somewhere around 4.1 I think.

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Blind already lasts 1 minute on NPCs. This was changed somewhere around 4.1 I think.

Restless Blades has also always reduced the CD on Sprint.

Some utility changes I noticed:

  • Feint looks like it no longer has a cooldown
  • All interrupts, including Kick, now have 15 second cooldowns.
  • Crippling Poison now only slows by 50%, down from 70%

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Other changes I've noticed: Shiv, in addition to the concentrated non-lethal effect, now has a 10 second cooldown. This probably goes in line with Blizzard's stated intention of dispels being more meaningful, although hunter tranquilizing shot and Druid soothe have not had a cooldown added. This will make rogues a weak enrage dispel class, depending on the situation.

The other thing I noticed was that the cooldown of feint was removed. When coupled with the elusiveness talent, the implication of this is that rogues having unparalleled survivability in pve. I would venture a guess that the feint glyph will be removed to balance this. It's also more costly than it is now.

Another observation: Instant poison is no longer ppm.

Based on the wording of Revealing Strike compared to the live version, my speculation is that it appears as though it will not be consumed by finishers ("increases the effectiveness of your offensive finishing moves on that target" vs "increases the effectiveness of your next offensive finishing move on that target"), but I'll agree, I wonder the same thing as Aldriana. It appears the sinister strike glyph effect will also be linked to a target via the revealing strike debuff. It also looks as though it may add a little complexity to combat's rotation since the baseline glyphed rupture will probably make rupture unequivocally worth using (assuming bleed debuff effect is baked into the damage, which is of course to be determined), so combat will need to manage 2 debuffs and 1 buff.

The tooltip to redirect does not indicate that it transfers bandit's guile insight, but that may or may not mean anything. I thought I remember a blue once saying they intended on changing bandit's guile to not be linked to a specific target (I could possibly have a bad memory too).

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Killing Spree: Step through the shadows to a random enemy within 10yrds, dealing a damaging strike and generating 5 combo points on that target. This ability may be activated multiple times withing 5 seconds of the first activation. ( I don't remember if the underlined portion was there prior to the update.)

Depending on the actual gameplay mechanic of Shroud, potentially enables the ability to reset encounters that are going downhill. Could prove to be very useful on progression content or just a bad attempt on farm content.

Revealing strike will likely move to the first attack to get the buff to SS, and with Anticipation talented at tier 6 the worries of lost combo points are a thing of the past.

Slightly disappointed the took Dance, Vengeance and killing spree out of the 6 layer talent options. Also still sad to see SStep competing with Prep in tier 4.

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I think removing the big cooldowns from the tier 6 talents was pretty much essential. DPS cooldowns are the sort of thing they'd never be able to balance effectively in this talent model, and some of them didn't make sense for all specs. Realistically, was anyone other than Sub rogues every going to take Shadow Dance? I think the new options are a big improvement, myself.

The CPs from KSp were announced at Blizzcon. I admit I'm not totally sold on the idea - I discussed the reasons for this briefly here, but, to summarize: KSp is an interesting cooldown, and free finishers is an interesting cooldown, but I don't think they necessarily play well with each other.

And yes, Prep in T4 - heck, prep in the talent tree, period - is suboptimal. And T1 is still poorly balanced for PvE, and T2 and T5 are somewhat useless from a PvE perspective (unless Dirty Tricks causes us to start weaving free Gouges into our cycle, in which case its worse than useless). As I say: there's still room for improvement. But this generally feels like a step in the right direction.

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On shiv concentrated effects

Shiv Changes - Forums - World of Warcraft

The new Shiv will apply concentrated effects of the active utility poison. Those effects are not included in the poison tooltips currently available on the calculator, but here are the current versions:

Crippling Poison – Reduces the target’s speed by 70% for 12 seconds.

Mind-Numbing Poison – Increases the casting time of an enemy's next spellcast within 8 seconds by 100%.

Wound Poison – Reduces the target’s healing received by 50% for 6 seconds.

Leeching Poison – Instantly restores 5% of the Rogue’s health.

Paralytic Poison – Roots the target in place for 4 seconds.

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Shuriken Toss + Deadly Throw = We are a ranged class now, baby.

Elusiveness seems odd to me. Why tie it to Feint, which already has a massive shield wall like reduction to most incoming damage? It almost seems like Feint itself should be in that slot and just make the 50% reduction apply to everything.

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What I'm actually wondering about, having looked through the calculator, is which damaging poison we'll end up using. I know it's impossible to say until we have some actual numbers, but given the fact that Envenom no longer depends on DP stacks, we could be using either instant or deadly, or possibly even switching between them depending on the fight setup.

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