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Hamlet

[Balance] Cataclysm 4.2 Firelands (OLD)

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Yeah, looks like you can no longer manually cancel Lunar Shower on live.

The LS discussion is interesting. I've been maintaining that the new drawback isn't so bad. If the pre-Solar issue were fixed, it may still be more helpful than hurtful. But what I'm realizing reading posts more is that the benefit of LS just isn't that great to begin with.

Maybe we should have thought about this more even before 4.2, but you don't move for 3+ consecutive seconds all that often. LS seemed like a really big deal in beta since were imagining running around while still doing decent DPS and it sounded great, but the reality is that in raid content we work pretty hard to avoid moving that much. Each 3-stack Moonfire only gets about 5000 damage from the LS talent, and if you only do that a couple times in a fight, then it's just not very much. I mean, to even live up to the 1%/point rubric for DPS talents, you have to get almost 1000 DPS from Lunar Shower, and that requires making use of it almost every 5 seconds, which pretty much never happens.

Last tier we didn't think about this too hard, since there was nowhere good to put the points anyway, and there were fights like Maloriak/Atramedes/Council where you clearly wanted it. But now that the talent does have a drawback, and we make use of Gale Winds more often, and Owlkin Frenzy might be better filler anyway, I can understand the eagerness to drop it a bit more. It just doesn't really add much damage except for certain specific fights where you have to move quite a lot (so far, maybe Ragnaros).

In short--we took LS last tier because there was no reason not to, but it's kind of a crutch in some ways. We should be practicing encounters so as to minimize movement anyway, and when we do have to move, the damage we get from LS is usually not even that impressive. After thinking about this more, I can see coming around to people who are dropping the talent. It has less to do with the energy drawback and just as much to do with it not being all that strong to begin with.

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Continuing thoughts from before--so what utility talents do we wind up wanting this tier?

Gale Winds: seems to be useful at Rhyolith and Ragnaros (both have short-lived add packs where you have to do something between WM's, but they don't live long enough for DoT's to be great). Maybe Beth'tilac--a bit awkward since the Spiderlings are moving, but a glyphed Hurricane snare might actually be a nice way to deal with them.

Dreamstate: still only needed if you really Hurricane quite a lot and/or Moonfire spam without LS, but I don't think there's too much reason to be doing either.

Fungal Growth: Can't think of much, actually. Only Beth'tilac adds, if there's no other snare on them (and it's still not a great solution, since it's hard to make good use of both the damage and the snare from WM). Might be able to go without this tier.

Owlkin Frenzy: as discussed, might be a common filler talent--we should start trying to make a list of things that proc it.

Looking at the tree overall, if you want to give up Lunar Shower, you still need to take either Dreamstate or Fungal Growth. I guess I'd favor FG for now since I think some Heroics will make it more useful (Rhyolith or maybe Beth'tilac) and I really can't think of much use for Dreamstate. That leaves something like this:

WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie.

Only complication being that you probably still want Lunar Shower for Ragnaros.

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Given it's situational nature, it's difficult to quantify the value of LS in its current state. Having Lunar Shower active effectively reduces the value of Mastery, but it's also important to consider that as the amount of Mastery we have increases the value of LS decreases, making LS look less and less desirable. The best way to come up with objective figures may be to look at lunar/solar power as a resource and get a value in terms of damage per lunar/solar power point instead of damage per second. Unfortunately, even that feels almost impossible unless you're analyzing a specific scenario. The casting cost benefit also needs to be accounted for.

I agree that Dreamstate shouldn't be needed. Between WM and Typhoon I almost always have Clearcasting when it's time for a Hurricane, anyway. I'd probably go for this: WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie.

Also, I find it hard to believe that any theory crafting tool is accurate if it's telling me Heroic Signet of the Fifth Circle is better than Infernal Signet of the Avenger. Is that the case, or is this item just not making it into the comparison somehow?

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Hamlet - Perseverance has gone up in priority significantly for utility talents now that Blessing of the Grove is utterly worthless. There are no remaining dps talents, mana regen isn't a concern, leaving survivability as the next major concern for a high end raider. I did try fungal growth on the first night in Firelands but it's unreliable and destroys WM dmg if you use the talent for slowing purposes. Dreamstate... well, I innervated myself one time the whole night. Why not put the points to use in something that will actually be used in every fight?

41% damage reduction with barkskin up without any external cooldowns is pretty nice. Obviously you already incorporated this in your mock talent tree, but I wanted to call attention to it.

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I think DR effects all stack multiplicatively, but I don't know if I've ever actually tested with Perseverance.

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Quick question: Is Dreamstate always better than Moonglow even point for point in T11-gear? Haven't really seen this question in a long time, and if I'm remembering correct there was a point where it would be benefitial to add points in them both instead of filling them.

Don't really understand why people like LS so much for Ryolith. We did 5 bosses in Firelands, and I have tried both specs, but dropping LS seemed to be benefitial for me in Ryolith due to many adds. But I might be completely wrong. For my first time in WoW ever, I'm actually confused how to dps optimal sometimes.

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Maybe we should have thought about this more even before 4.2, but you don't move for 3+ consecutive seconds all that often. LS seemed like a really big deal in beta since were imagining running around while still doing decent DPS and it sounded great, but the reality is that in raid content we work pretty hard to avoid moving that much.

Not sure if by beta you mean Cataclysm beta or 4.2 PTR, but the reason why LS was so good pre-4.2 was that it ramped up based on movement, instead of number of MF casts as is the case right now. This made a major difference because pre-4.2 it was possible to get the maximum effect with only 1 MF, assuming you kept moving. This talent has changed in 2 negative ways: first of all it now generates energy, which is the obvious drawback we are all discussing; and second, and maybe more importantly, its ramp up time is now a lot longer. One change only would have this talent still usable. The combination of changes makes it really lackluster, to the point that pretty much everybody is going to drop it.

As for replacement talents, already in pre-4.2 I felt that 3/3 Perseverance and 3/3 Owlkin Frenzy were, if not mandatory strictly speaking, at least the talents that provided the most "bang for the buck". That left us with at least 2 points to spend in the Balance Tree, and another point elsewhere (typically Solar Beam for utility + either 2/2 FG or Gale Winds).

Dropping LS on top of that means speccing FG + Gale Winds + Solar Beam (since we need those points to max out the Balance Tree, and the only other possibilities being Dreamstate or Moonglow, both of which we don't really need). That also leaves an extra point, which at this stage I'd be tempted to spend in the feral tree, either in Feral Swiftness (15% faster movement in cat form is always nice) or Furor (more mana + a chance to use Skull Bash). We're definitely running out of interesting talents.

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True, the loss of stacking on movement hurt the talent more than I'd realized. I suspect that was going to go out regardless of what else happened though, since something Blizzard really didn't like was the intentional dancing in circles that Moonkin always did (it was unintended and looked silly). Removing the ability to get a DPS advantage from intentionally moving back and forth when we didn't otherwise need to is probably better for the game overall.

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the /cancel aura macro still works for me on EU-servers, is it standard procedure for hotfixes to be applied on EU-servers later?

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The good thing about this whole LS affair is that should it be beneficial to spec out of it (which is not clear for now), Blizzard may think of a way to make the talent attractive again by reworking the mechanism.

As Hamlet pointed out, it was not that great a talent to begin with, even if it had some nice uses. It did help with mobility and eclipse management, but also allowed for a gimmicky gameplay (Sunfire spamm) that was probably performing too well (especially in pvp and in pve encounters with 2+ targets).

With increased Mastery scores, the incent to stay in the most powerfull eclipse (Solar) would probably only increase with gear and I understand why they wanted to put a stop to it.

However having such a huge damage boost while in eclipse is probably going to push us into gimmicks more and more. As of now, I don't have the best gear available but I already do 53% more damage in eclipse (without Theralion's mirror proc). If Blizzard doesn't balance out of eclipse damage et eclipsed damage a little, I'm afraid we won't be willing to bounce back and forth between eclipse - which is supposed to be the design - in a lot of situations if we can figure a way to stay in Solar for extended periods of time just to be able to AOE things comfortably.

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Now if I can only make myself stop compulsively strafing back and forth while AEing =/.

I had mathed it out on a purely damage per eclipse energy basis and it took 8 moonfires to get your average LS stack over all the moonfires high enough for the extra damage from having the LS talent to outperform using that energy on starfire (single target). That doesn't tell the whole story though, since casting LS moonfires in eclipse then nukes out of eclipse balances out the energy usage while casting non-LS moonfires followed by eclipsed nukes just consumes energy.

Without LS I can get every talent I can come up with an even halfway decent justification for and still have a point left over (which I threw in furor instead of blessing of the grove, but otherwise it's what hamlet posted). I ultimately decided to drop LS because even though I could manage it, it was an unnecessary attention drain to do so. Are there any fights this tier where talenting the AE snare/root break from stampeding roar would be useful? It's a powerful thing in the right fight, though the range on that spell is problematically small. Clearly there are 3 points which don't really have a wrong answer.

I think you nailed the fundamental problem qae. The eclipse swing is just way too big and AE is way too dependent on solar eclipse, plus it takes way too long to come back around to it once you leave. There are a few solutions I can think of, but they're not worth belaboring and all require a pretty significant change to how we use eclipse.

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I think you nailed the fundamental problem qae. The eclipse swing is just way too big and AE is way too dependent on solar eclipse, plus it takes way too long to come back around to it once you leave. There are a few solutions I can think of, but they're not worth belaboring and all require a pretty significant change to how we use eclipse.

Removing non-eclipse states would be a pretty simple fix, and it would remedy several issues. The enormous damage swing and the one way energy gain of the LS talent are two things that come to mind.

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Dreamstate is an amazing talent for firelands. There are multiple fights such as Alysrazor, Bethtilac, and Ragnaros where you want to stay in an eclipsed state for an extended amount of time to dot up multiple adds. In these cases, especially Ragnaros where hurricane is excellent on the magma adds, you need to innervate yourself to keep mana up. Even with a dream-state innervate and two euphorias, I start the second intermission on Ragnaros with 5-10% mana.

Lunar shower, on the other hand, stinks. In my experience, there is a very small number of situations where it is useful - you're on the move for longer than 5 seconds, no adds are present, and dots don't need to be refreshed. Compared to the situations that it's a straight dps loss - any fight where you are interested in staying in eclipse to multi dot adds, which is easily half the fights in Firelands.

It's a no-brainer to pick up dreamstate in lieu of the dps loss that is LS.

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As I get close to Revered with Avengers of Hyjal, I decided to play around with the new trinkets in WC with my current gear set up. Fiery Quintessence and Rune of Zeth are all giving DPS numbers below my 372 Theralion's Mirror. You stated in the OP that all 3 sim higher than any T11 trinkets, but I wasn't sure if you included all heroic versions as well.

Is it possible WC is missing something? Or should I stay with DMC and Heroic Mirror until the Necromantic Focus becomes available?

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First of all, the OP was discussing Heroic versions of the trinkets, which are definitely better than 372 trinkets. Now there's currently a complication where the 391 trinkets don't appear on any in-game vendors, so we sort of have to wait around and see what the story is there.

That aside, last I checked 378 Fiery Quintessence did look better than 372 Mirror. Remember that when evaluating FQ you have to both reforge it to haste and deal with the resulting hit cap issues (generally by assuming that any excess Spirit will get reforged to mastery).

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Yeah IDK I would be interested to see if anyone else has had similar results. Normal Necromantic Focus is simming higher than my Mirror, but I made sure all reforges were correct, and the 378 FQ is coming in around 71 DPS below the mirror (With Rune of Zeth about 20 DPS below the FQ).

I actually even did an alternate gear setup where the extra 153 haste from the FQ reforge put me over a Haste cap, and the FQ still came in around 21 DPS below the Heroic Mirror.

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Removing non-eclipse states would be a pretty simple fix, and it would remedy several issues. The enormous damage swing and the one way energy gain of the LS talent are two things that come to mind.

That would be my preferred solution too. Without a non-eclipse state the energy gain from LS isn't really necessary in the first place, since the whole point of it is to keep you from using it to stay in solar eclipse for a 2-3 target fight where most classes are doing their normal single target dps. Then we might need a damage realignment towards nukes like shadow priests got and be done with it.

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I agree that Dreamstate shouldn't be needed. Between WM and Typhoon I almost always have Clearcasting when it's time for a Hurricane, anyway. I'd probably go for this: WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie.

Have I missed something? You keep mentioning casting hurricane while under the effect of Clearcasting. I just tested in game to see if it changed, but hurricane still costs full mana regardless of clearcasting proc active or not.

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First of all, the OP was discussing Heroic versions of the trinkets, which are definitely better than 372 trinkets. Now there's currently a complication where the 391 trinkets don't appear on any in-game vendors, so we sort of have to wait around and see what the story is there.

That aside, last I checked 378 Fiery Quintessence did look better than 372 Mirror. Remember that when evaluating FQ you have to both reforge it to haste and deal with the resulting hit cap issues (generally by assuming that any excess Spirit will get reforged to mastery).

Regardless of the overall throughput numbers, the JC trinket proved to be very valuable in progression this past tier. Fiery Quintessence is the same imo for this tier of progression. It'll prove very valuable regardless of overall personal DPS numbers since you can control it for particular burn phases, add phases, etc. It's definitely worth picking up at least while progressing through some bosses.

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Have I missed something? You keep mentioning casting hurricane while under the effect of Clearcasting. I just tested in game to see if it changed, but hurricane still costs full mana regardless of clearcasting proc active or not.

Aye, Hurricane being unaffected by Clearcasting has been the norm since 4.0.

On the topic of removing non-Eclipse phases, I doubt Blizzard would do that on the pretense of PvP balance or something along the lines of not wanting a bland % increase (granted that's what most DPS have as their mastery anyway). It'd be nice to have our mastery be useful at all times though like everyone else.

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Speaking of FQ and Zeth, do Synapse Springs from ingi trigger cd on them so you can't use both int procs at the same time?

How this would effect the dpsvalues of both trinkets?

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Hello.

Although this question will quickly become irrelevant as we gear up in T12, I was wondering why Stump of Time was omitted from the trinket discussion in OP as well as the subsequent graph posted in the thread. From the weights I get in SimC, Stump of Time exceeds any non-heroic T11 trinket, and is second only to DMC:V.

I enjoyed the conversation about LS and I think I'll experiment with dropping it based on what you all have said.

On an unrelated note, in my personal experience Astral Alignment routinely expires before the charges can be used, post nerf. I'm going to break my T11 set early as a result. I think that an optimized T11 set with 2pc bonus will perform better, and I happen to have non-set shoulders and a heroic non-set chest in the bank.

I experimented with breaking my set bonus early for same-i-level pieces with better secondaries and it turns out the 4pc T11 bonus is still enough of an incentive to keep them, as Hamlet states in OP.

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Is Wrathcalc's evaluation of Fiery Quint reliable? I came out about 50 behind reforging it to spirit, and then my spirit back to mastery on other gear to compensate (Using H Mirror). Obviously holding it for Ryolith Fragments or Beth'tilac spiderlings, or even multi-dotting on shannox would boost this value tremendously.

I also assume WC recognizes the 1 minute 30 second cooldown change a while back.

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So since no Leather Intellect drops off bosses, that would mean the 378 built would have to be upgradable to Heroic version? I can't believe that Blizzard would allow Druids to have no 391 items available in the waist slot. This line of reasoning leads me to believe that the Heroic version of the FQ will also become available. Perhaps exalted rep is required to see this on the vendors?

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Is Wrathcalc's evaluation of Fiery Quint reliable? I came out about 50 behind reforging it to spirit, and then my spirit back to mastery on other gear to compensate (Using H Mirror). Obviously holding it for Ryolith Fragments or Beth'tilac spiderlings, or even multi-dotting on shannox would boost this value tremendously.

I also assume WC recognizes the 1 minute 30 second cooldown change a while back.

Looking at this again, it depends on your haste. When I checked initially, it was in my current gear (armory), and replacing Mirror with FQ moved me up to 2414 haste--in particular, it moved me past a haste breakpoint at 2322 (12 ticks DI, no NG). Without that, normal FQ does seem to come in slightly behind Heroic Mirror. Although in practice it would depend on whether you can get any really good mileage out of timing the FQ activation.

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