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Melthu

[Feral-Bear] Cataclysm 4.3 (Dragon Soul)

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Trinket Subsitions.

I'm assuming every has mirror/seed and some kind of matrix by this point.

Morchok: Matrix is always a good on a physical fight. Seed/Fire from the Deep are still good, but their mastery is devalued by fight mechanics. Their uses can be nice if by luck you get to 3-4 stacks of sunder (Normal) or get hit by the other tank's stomp (Heroic). I would still avoid stamina trinkets since the damage is not spiky or huge until the final burn which you'll have majors for.

Yorshaj: Magic damage is really the only part to tank damage on this fight so your other trinket doesn't matter, I would use matrix. I might also try Sindragosa's Fang.

Zon'ozz: Matrix or Seed/Fire. Matrix gives more overall, but Seed/Fire will let you use your trinket proc when he has many stacks.

Hagara: Still not enough magic damage to justify mirror, so Seed/Fire

Ultraxion: Matrix or Seed to boost your cat time. Once we get better gear probably Matrix over Pride anyway.

Blackhorn: Seed/Fire, you really really need to dodge those sunders if you can.

Spine: Seed or maybe even Spindle for when the Amalgamation starts hitting hard.

Madness: Seed or maybe even a DPS trinket with passive agility.

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That is a post that needs to be bookmarked, tremendous list!!

I was speaking with a friend of mine and he was planning on trying the Bedrock Talisman tonight on heroic Morchok, he claimed that it would be a viable choice for that fight, I'm not 100% on that but if it works out for him I'l definitely edit this post. Regardless, it will be interesting to see some damage/mitigation numbers later on in the week once more bears get a chance to tank the heroics.

Thanks again for the list by the way.

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I was thinking about trinkets last night and here's what I plan to be using: Any other suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.

Morchok: Wrath of Unchaining (Stacking Agi), Resolve of Undying (Stacking Dodge)

Damage incoming is pretty much all physical, with effects that increase damage taken, further boosting agi/dodge over stam or mastery.

Actually in my recent experience on Heroic Morchok it'd be best to combine Wrath/Indomitable. Wrath obviously plus the 2pc provide physical mitigation but Indomitable will proc on every stomp, every 1min, giving your healers time to catch up.

On a side note, I used to stack agil but I switched to stam gems, a healthy mix with the offsetting values provided by switching trinkets has proved best for me so far. Between the kiril Polearm: Kiril, Fury of Beasts - Item - World of Warcraft and wrath you should have enough agil to add in a healthy mix of stamina, except for the fights where we'll be dpsing 75% of the time.

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4pc unglyphed bear healing on the raid/group seems to have gotten roughly a ~50% stealth nerf sometime this weekend.

Anyone else seeing it?

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Yes, our bear was healing us for roughly 4,5k per tick with about 300k health during Frenzied Regen. This matches the max health buff of 15% which the raid receives instead of 30%, as both seem to have an reduced effect of 50%.

Currently our bear is stacking Agi, but with unglyphed 4pc, stacking Stamina might be a better choice, also considering the amount of spell damage from bosses this tier.

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From my personal tests around tier 13 4pc bonus and FR:

- party/raid seems to receive hp bonus of 15% of bears max hp (not their current max hp) - need confirmation on this

- debuff remains on raid for its duration even if you shift out of bear, outrange raid members or change realms (like by using Heroic Will on Ultraxion)

That would make stamina trinkets worth considering for fights when you expect your raid cd being used in rotation (most fights I believe). Also would make cat-forced-to-bear-for-15s nonglyphed version significantly weaker (I believe you still gain +30% extra healing from glyphed one).

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4pc unglyphed bear healing on the raid/group seems to have gotten roughly a ~50% stealth nerf sometime this weekend.

Anyone else seeing it?

Heya, noticed it too. Not a druid tank my self but look at this logs from my guilds MT:

Thursday: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

He was geming agility and not using 2 stamina trinkets, he had 270k hp during cast which resulted into this

[23:31:28.086] Fightclûb Frenzied Regeneration Fightclûb +8111

[23:31:28.473] Fightclûb Mass Regeneration Akasha +4055

50% of Frenzied regeneration transferred into Mass regeneration

We noticed how powerful it is and decided to see him with stamina gems and rallying cry being popped at the same time but then this happened:

Sunday log: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

He had whooping 418k HP during cast but it resulted with this:

[23:35:58.352] Fightclûb Frenzied Regeneration Fightclûb +12552

[23:35:58.582] Fightclûb Mass Regeneration Hyuna +3137

Only 25% transfer so it seems it had been halved.

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Confirming the healing nerf after looking at my logs:

Thursday - WOL Search for Mass/Frenzied Regen - Thursday

[19:12:11.368] Xenoborg Frenzied Regeneration Xenoborg +9521

[19:12:11.666] Xenoborg Mass Regeneration Tarkin +4760

Sunday - WOL Search for Mass/Frenzied Regen - Sunday

[20:12:51.613] Xenoborg Frenzied Regeneration Xenoborg +8574

[20:12:51.802] Xenoborg Mass Regeneration Kobrakai +2143

When I get home I'll test the theory that the health buff is 50% of the health gained by the bear (Seems very likely based on the limited data I have with me) and whether or not the healing bonus with the glyph was changed.

Another minor note looking at logs: mass regeneration can crit based on your spell crit and it benefits from things that increase healing received like demon armor and nurturing instinct.

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I hate to do this but since I can't test myself I have a list of questions I need other people to answer about the 4pc bonus so that we can consolidate all of the information we have. If you can provide screenshots or logs as evidence of your answers that would be great, but unless someone contradicts you I'll take your word for it.

  1. When you cast Frenzied Regen a separate buff called Mass Regeneration is applied to the raid, correct?
  2. If you then swap to cat form do you get a Mass Regen buff on yourself or do you lose all benefits?
  3. Are there any notable limitations to how the buff is applied, such as range, different phases, etc.?
  4. What happens if you cast Frenzied Regen while you still have the debuff from shifting into bear form?
  5. The current consensus seems to be that the health buff applied to raid members is 15% of the bear's max hp, is this accurate?
  6. Additionally, temporary health buffs such as Power Word: Fortitude and Rallying Cry increase the Mass Regen health buff, correct?
  7. What happens if temporary health buffs are gained or lost after Mass Regen has been applied, on either the bear or the other raid members?
  8. If Frenzied Regen is glyphed then raid members gain 15% healing taken with Mass Regen, correct?
  9. If Frenzied Regen is not glyphed then raid members are healed for 1.5% of the bear's max hp every second, correct?
  10. Does this healing depend on whether or not the bear who used Frenzied Regen has rage?
  11. Does this healing continue to work if the bear changes form, dies, enters a different phase, etc.?
  12. This healing can crit and also benefits from talents and abilities that increase healing taken, correct?

That's everything I can think of for now, thank you to everyone who helps out with testing the bonus.

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1. When you cast Frenzied Regen a separate buff called Mass Regeneration is applied to the raid, correct?

Yes, spell ID here :Mass Regeneration - Spell - World of Warcraft

2. If you then swap to cat form do you get a Mass Regen buff on yourself or do you lose all benefits?

You lose all benefits, the raid continues to have the benefits. They won't get healing, but still get the increased healing taken.

3. Are there any notable limitations to how the buff is applied, such as range, different phases, etc.?

The spell data from above indicates range to be 100y.

4. What happens if you cast Frenzied Regen while you still have the debuff from shifting into bear form?

You get the normal effects as if you did not have the 4pc.

5. The current consensus seems to be that the health buff applied to raid members is 15% of the bear's max hp, is this accurate?

Yes, regardless of buffs on yourself or raid member it takes a snapshot of your health increase at cast and gives half of that to the raid.


Char   After     Before   Increase

Xeno	257936	198413	59523

1	170410	140649	29761

2	178822	149061	29761

3	232926	203165	29761

4	178914	149153	29761

5	163340	133579	29761

6	175938	146177	29761

7	167426	137665	29761

8	173292	143531	29761

9	163823	134062	29761

10	167372	137611	29761

11	165440	135679	29761

12	173054	143293	29761

13	171388	141627	29761

 

6. Additionally, temporary health buffs such as Power Word: Fortitude and Rallying Cry increase the Mass Regen health buff, correct?

Yes, they increased both the health given and the healing done by mass regeneration ticks in proportion with the tanks increased health.

7. What happens if temporary health buffs are gained or lost after Mass Regen has been applied, on either the bear or the other raid members?

Losing a health buff mid regen (I click off my mark of the wild) reduced healing tics to their new expected value. It did not reduce the health bonus.

8. If Frenzied Regen is glyphed then raid members gain 15% healing taken with Mass Regen, correct?

It still gives a 30% increase to healing received.

Testing with a priest using desperate prayer, which heals for a set 30% of current max health (+6% and +12% from other priest talents)

Before, 142k, healed for 50.57k

After, 177k healed for 82.0k (That is 63.04 from new max health + 30% healing bonus for mass regen)

9. If Frenzied Regen is not glyphed then raid members are healed for 1.5% of the bear's max hp every second, correct?

After the nerf, it is now 0.75% of the bears max health a second, if 10 rage is consumed (0.075% per rage consumed). As seen 2 posts previous.

10. Does this healing depend on whether or not the bear who used Frenzied Regen has rage?

Yes, directly proportional to rage consumed.

11. Does this healing continue to work if the bear changes form, dies, enters a different phase, etc.?

Dieing or changing form stops any healing you may have been giving, but does not effect the increased health or healing taken buffs on the raid. I have not yet had a chance to test on Ultraxion with phasing.

12. This healing can crit and also benefits from talents and abilities that increase healing taken, correct?

Yes. Whether or not it crits on you is independent from if it crits on other people, crits on you do not heal them for more. Crit rate on 1500 ticks was ~16, near to my raid buffed spell crit.

Thursday - WOL example showing crits and a warlock (Demon armor) and a feral cat (Nurturing Instinct) taking more healing.

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I have not yet had a chance to test on Ultraxion with phasing.

Tested it just now, it does not apply to people in other phases. The healing applies to whoever is in the same phase as you at any given moment. The health increase and healing taken increase apply to whoever is in your phase at the start and will stay on regardless of phasing.

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Just to confirm what people have been seeing when watching logs, here are one of blizzards Patch 4.3 Hotfixes: December 12:

"The Mass Regeneration effect from the Druid Tier 13 bonus now heals 25% of the healing received by the Druid from Frenzied Regeneration, down from 50%. The tooltip will be updated in a later patch"

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Cross-posting this from the cat thread, showing that Nurturing Instinct has no effect on the 4pc.

Looking at my logs from last night I can say that Nurturing Instinct has no effect (or an extremely small effect) on either the tics on yourself or the tics you give to the raid.

WOL search of mass regeneration during Ultraxion where I had Nurturing Instinct

[22:47:04.164] Xenoborg Frenzied Regeneration Xenoborg +10107

[22:47:04.295] Xenoborg Mass Regeneration Ruskó +2527

I had 256k (rounded) normal maximum health at the time, giving 332.8k during regen, with an expected healing tic of 9990. The actual value was 1.15% higher, but I believe this is due to a slight further increase in my health from a resto shaman. The mass regen tic was the expect 25% of the tick on me.

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I had a quick question about mastery and the absorb it should be doing.

Currently I have 1725 mastery which increases my savage defense bubble by 70% add that to the 35% it gives me 105% of my AP.

Currently in game I am only getting roughly 60% of my AP as a bubble. Maybe I am missing out on the scaling or somthing but I just wanted to check.

My current unbuffed AP is 13366

My current Absorb is 7975

Gymclasshero's Savage Defense is refreshed on Gymclasshero. (7975 Remaining)

With my mastery shouldn't this be a 14034 absorb?

Thanks for any help.

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= Rotation=

For the basic tanking rotation you want to follow a short set of rules:

1. Keep Demoralizing Roar up

2. Mangle on cooldown

3. Thrash

4. Keep up at least 1 stack of Lacerate

5. Keep up the Pulverize buff

6. Faerie Fire

7. Keep up a 3 stack of Lacerate

8. Spend excess rage on Maul

Hi everyone! I'm a fairly new player, only been on a couple of raids so far, so forgive me if this has been talked about or is just plain obviously wrong, but I've been wanting to ask: why does Thrash out-prioritize Lacerate in this rotation? If threat is not an issue, which it usually isn't, then you want to optimize your rotation to favor survivability right? Aside from demo roar and CDs, the only thing you can do that affects your survivability at all is to get more crits, and for that lacerate seems like it should outprioritize thrash since:

1) glyphed, it is the only attack you have with an increased crit chance

2) it costs less rage than thrash; more rage efficiency means more mauls, and since mauls are off the gcd, this means more total attacks and hence more chances to get crits

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The miniscule increase in damage reduction with the 5% higher crit on lacerate for mastery bubbles is vastly outweighed by the superior dps you do following the rotation.

For example, a bear offtank on Ultraxion is capable of 30k dps, a significant improvement over the other tank classes who usually fall around the 20k dps range. 10k rdps is nothing to sneeze at, even in a 25m raid, and the overall faster kill speed directly reduces the amount of incoming damage to the raid over the fight.

Just because the tank's main role is to absorb damage gracefully, does not mean that there is no point at which any further improvement to survivability is too minimal for what you have to give up to achieve it.

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Actually, I think 3 and 4 should be reversed. You always want at least one stack of Lacerate up to proc Mangle. That is how it is modeled in Mew and expressed in my Ovale script. It is also consistent with what Astrylian told me about a year ago when I asked what rotation was being modeled in RAWR.

I would recommend changing the rotation to:

1. Keep Demoralizing Roar up

2. Mangle on cooldown

3. Keep up at least 1 stack of Lacerate

4. Thrash

5. Keep up the Pulverize buff

6. Keep up a 3 stack of Lacerate

7. Faerie Fire

8. Lacerate as a filler

9. Spend excess rage on Maul

(The logic around Lacerate and FF at the end of the script has also been changed.)

Of course, it can get significantly more complex than that. Especially if you want to optimize uptime with Pulverize for mitigation with 2 piece T13. That does, however, lower dps.

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1. Keep Demoralizing Roar up

2. Mangle on cooldown

3. Keep up at least 1 stack of Lacerate

4. Thrash

5. Keep up the Pulverize buff

6. Keep up a 3 stack of Lacerate

7. Faerie Fire

8. Lacerate as a filler

9. Spend excess rage on Maul

I copied this rotation into the OP, along with a note that the priority may change in certain situations, such as moving up Pulverize for more survivability.

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The miniscule increase in damage reduction with the 5% higher crit on lacerate for mastery bubbles is vastly outweighed by the superior dps you do following the rotation.

For example, a bear offtank on Ultraxion is capable of 30k dps, a significant improvement over the other tank classes who usually fall around the 20k dps range. 10k rdps is nothing to sneeze at, even in a 25m raid, and the overall faster kill speed directly reduces the amount of incoming damage to the raid over the fight.

Just because the tank's main role is to absorb damage gracefully, does not mean that there is no point at which any further improvement to survivability is too minimal for what you have to give up to achieve it.

Ah, I see. Thanks!

Second question: the priority seems to put getting Mauls off at very low priority (i.e. just spend whatever leftover rage you have on them). However, Maul seems to be a big deal in terms of survivability. Using it off CD increases the raw number of attacks you put out (and hence the the ratio of crits you get) by over 30%, hence it would seem to me that missing a Maul is a bad thing. Thus, rather than optimizing the rotation for thrashes (which is the only special attack that costs more than 15 rage) and spending whatever leftovers you have on maul, shouldn't we be assuming we will maul on CD, and only thrash as much as we can without using too much rage to make us miss a maul?

I understand most of the time our rage income will be enough to do both, but there are situations where you do run low on rage, so in those situations shouldn't the priority be to keep up the mauls rather than the thrashes? For example, you just tank swapped in from dpsing in cat form, so you have only 40 rage. Should you forego a maul at the start so you can afford the thrash? Or should you forego thrash for a bit so you can get an extra maul? The maul is a not insignificant chance to proc a savage defense right out the gate. If this was an emergency swap in, the healers might appreciate that a lot.

Similarly, aside from getting and maintaining the 3-stack, should FFF be on the list at all? That's a whole GCD where you're not using a special attack, and thus one less chance to proc SD. Seems like we should be trying to get out as many attacks as possible.

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I think you are mixing up Mangle and Maul? Maul is the attack that has no CD and enhances your next autoattack, so it does not increase the number of attacks at all.

If you substitute Maul with Mangle everything you said is right.

EDIT: Silly me, nevermind i guess i come from the past ;)

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I think you are mixing up Mangle and Maul? Maul is the attack that has no CD and enhances your next autoattack, so it does not increase the number of attacks at all.

If you substitute Maul with Mangle everything you said is right.

Maul was a "On next melee" attack, but has been changed to an instant (Off GCD) attack.

He meant maul all the way.

And yes, mauls really do increase the probability of savage defense procs, and survivability is exactly what we need after a tank switch until healing has stabilized.

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Ok, so then wouldn't the ideal priority be:

1. Keep Demoralizing Roar up

2. Maul if it is off cooldown and you have at least 45 rage

3. Mangle on cooldown

4. Keep up at least 1 stack of Lacerate

5. Thrash if it will not interfere with the next Maul

6. Keep up the Pulverize buff

7. Keep up a 3 stack of Lacerate

8. Keep up a 3 stack of Faerie Fire

9. Lacerate as a filler

The 45 rage being to ensure that Maul won't interfere with doing other specials on the GCD.

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Ok, so then wouldn't the ideal priority be:

1. Keep Demoralizing Roar up

2. Maul if it is off cooldown and you have at least 45 rage

3. Mangle on cooldown

4. Keep up at least 1 stack of Lacerate

5. Thrash if it will not interfere with the next Maul

6. Keep up the Pulverize buff

7. Keep up a 3 stack of Lacerate

8. Keep up a 3 stack of Faerie Fire

9. Lacerate as a filler

The 45 rage being to ensure that Maul won't interfere with doing other specials on the GCD.

Honestly, since Maul is off of the GCD, I track it separately from the main rotation, but do use 45 rage for when to recommend it. #8 is not about keeping up a three stacks of FFF. Since FFF has no Rage component and only a 1 second GCD (most bear abilities have a 1.5 second GCD), you can hit FFF when you are low on range, and it does decent damage and also decent threat gen (not that threat matters much now).

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How are other druids who are solo tanking madness of deathwing handling tetanus at the end? It seems they now changed it to do shadow damage instead of physical damage. Before we were using bop on tank after dream to clear the stack when it was getting over 5. And on second pack of the adds, I had all of my cd's back up and dream to survive it, normally if the stack got over 7, healers weren't able to keep me up any more. We were using 3 healers.

Now after change to magic damage, we had to sacrifice me in the first pack because the stack gets unhealable, then ress and then use all cd's on the second pack to survive it. I was thinking maybe having a DK to tank the other add for AMS and then dream duration and hoply managing to kill the other add on meantime and then taunting the add off from the dk, sadly we had no dk in the raid to test this.

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