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Rosin

4.3 Discipline Priest Compendium

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This is incorrect. Crit has more impact on PoH spam than does Mastery because PoH double dips on crit -- not only is the heal bigger, but the resulting DA is twice the size of what it should be. You can test this for yourself -- non-crit DAs from PoH are going to be around 3k on a 7k heal, but a 14k heal results in around a 12k DA. You can mentally think of this as the game saying "okay, the PoH heal was X make a DA of 0.3*X*Mastery as guaranteed by the spell. Oh, it was a crit, make a DA of 0.3*X*Mastery and combine with the existing one." The result is that crit is significantly stronger than Mastery for raid healing.

The one and only time Mastery surpasses either crit or haste pure shield spam which is not generally a sustainable or advised healing strategy.

Then your own spreadsheet disagrees with you. Putting in generic and equivalent values for secondaries (7k int, 2.5k spirit, 10k sp, 1k mastery/haste/crit), using the PoH spam value, Mastery surpasses Crit in every way (burst, sustained and normalized).

Unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible.

Not to mention, even if crit was slightly ahead, I'd still much prefer the guaranteed (if slightly lower) throughput from mastery over crit (but only for raid healing).

My copy of the spreadsheet was changed and working incorrectly, apologies for the confusion.

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While Heartsong does have a 20 second internal cooldown, compared to Power Torrent's 45 seconds, it also has a lower chance to proc (at 25%, compared to Power Torrent's 33%). It's difficult to have a higher uptime on something that you have a reduced chance to proc, in the first place.

The kind of difference in chance to proc that you are considering is negligible. Consider this.. every single heal, hot, dot (say holy fire dot), including every target hit with PoH and PoM is a chance to proc. Even if we were considering an absolute worst case scenario and we were purely casting on a tank .. averaging one cast per 2 seconds.. the chance that Heartsong would NOT proc within 25 seconds (the point at which Power Torrent would come off cooldown if we had used that instead) is 2.4% or (3/4)^13 where 13 is the number of heals we did, and 3/4 is the chance for one heal to fail to proc Heartsong. In a typical fight we will have more than 13 heals within 25 seconds, so yes the uptime on Heartsong is higher, because the ICD is so much lower. In my experience the difference is significant.

Oh, also Heartsong lasts for 15 seconds, while Power Torrent lasts for only 12 seconds.. clearly the uptimes won't be the same. With a quick search I found some testing that has the average time between procs for these enchants at 51 and 28 seconds, which is an average of 6 seconds (after the ICD) to proc PT and an average of 8 seconds to proc Heartsong.. resulting in 54% uptime on Heartsong and 24% uptime on PT.

I would be interested to see your findings, when you incorporate Rapture into the formulas for both enchants and how it would affect the returns from each.

You know, I've been so busy I forgot about this, but I can add some more detailed calculations for the sake of completeness.

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You don't really need a mathematical model, just look at WoL parses. PT is right at 20% uptime and Heartsong tends to be anywhere from 50-65%. The current priest spreadsheet models both enchants (with a lower estimate of 50% for Heartsong).

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Good point, I was just explaining *why* the uptime was higher. The estimates given weren't modeled they were someone's in-game testing just for a ballpark figure.

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Using the formulas given for spirit mana regen, I am entering in my raid-buffed values.. which are currently 8121 Intellect, and 3092 Spirit (I had to reforge for holy recently, don't judge).

My combat regen is going to be: BASE_REGEN+ (sqrt (Intellect)*Spirit*.016725)*COMBAT_MODIFIER

1029.5+(sqrt 8121 * 3092 *.016725) = 3359 mp5

With Heartsong (200 Spirit) that is:

1029.5+(sqrt 8121 * 3292 *.016725*.5) = 3510 mp5

with Power Torrent (500 Intellect * 1.15 * 1.05 (intellect modifiers)=604) *rounded

1029.5+(sqrt 8625 * 3092 *.016725*.5) = 3431 mp5

We'll suppose the lower end uptime values of 20% and 50%..

With Heartsong we are increasing our mp5 value by 3510-3359=151 mp5 x 50% of the fight for 75.5 mp5

With Power Torrent the increase is 72 mp5 x 20% of the fight for 14.4 mp5

Now for Rapture.

Rapture grants 7% of max mana, and every point of intellect increases max mana by 15. Therefore, my max mana will be increased by 500 * 1.15 * 1.05 (int multipliers) * 15 = 9056, when I have a Rapture proc I will gain 7% of that value in addition to my normal rapture gain. 9056 * 7% = 634 (if you have 2% meta-gem it's 637)

Now for the difficult part.. if we're maximizing our rapture potential we'll still end up with some unavoidable delay between Raptures. The ICD is 12 seconds but generally we'll consider 14 seconds to be more typical. Our Power Torrent buff is up for 12 seconds, so we have a high likelihood that within those 12 seconds we'll get a Rapture proc. Due to the ICD, we cannot gain a rapture proc more than once per PT. Our probability for gaining Rapture within the 12 second window in this case is 12/14~85.7%. A power torrent uptime of 20% comes to one buff every 60 seconds.. with 634 mana from rapture per proc that is 634/12 = 52.8 mp5 (if we gain rapture every time) and x 85.7% chance to gain rapture = 45.3 mp5 on average. The net result of this is 59.7 mp5 for Disc priests, which is still not as much as Heartsong.

That's not to say I'm advocating Heartsong for Disc, in any way. However, I do consider it an option for Holy Pallies and priests.. who get more regen from Heartsong in the first place, don't get a significant value from PT, and need regen more than us.

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Surely if your going to be PoH spamming you would want to create a nice synergy between haste, mastery and crit? It's only when you start using other spells the stat weights change.

If so far the discussion is about which stat is more important, all points look pretty valid. Mastery for increased DA, crit for larger heal and haste for the obvious. So why not just try to stack equally? I can't talk by the way, I'm a sucker for my haste.

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Surely if your going to be PoH spamming you would want to create a nice synergy between haste, mastery and crit? It's only when you start using other spells the stat weights change.

If so far the discussion is about which stat is more important, all points look pretty valid. Mastery for increased DA, crit for larger heal and haste for the obvious. So why not just try to stack equally? I can't talk by the way, I'm a sucker for my haste.

Except if you read this thread you'd realize Mastery is absolutely horrible for Divine Aegis, and by proxy, PoH spamming.

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Even if it was/is a horrible stat for DA, mastery is still going to be useful for PW:S. I still favour crit for PoH even though it's a little rng, would be nice to get a parse on ultraxion to see whether PoH spamming with mastery would be better since your DA's should be stacking on people at that point with blue crystal. Although that's the only encounter I've had to spam it.

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Crit is going to be more useful for a Hasted PoH. Not to mention you do 75% of the fight without the Blue buff if you're waiting. Just look at the math, I don't understand how you can think Mastery could even be close to any other stat for buffing PoH.

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There seems to be some kind of long-standing fixation on Mastery as a stat. Guys. Listen. Mastery sucks for us. The one and only time it is *ever* worth using is for when you are spamming shields. There look to be very few fights where that is the case (if any at all). Certainly there were none in the last tier, and I'm pretty sure there are none in this tier. Never stack mastery. If you can't be bothered to use the spreadsheet or simcraft, stop offering advice or suggestions to others, stop wondering outloud, and stop being emotional about the stat. There is irrefutable math on the subject, backed by both simcraft and the spreadsheet.

Mastery seemed like a great stat back in early Cataclysm largely because no one seemed to really look closely, and disc priests largely self-identified with shielding. The sad truth is, with the various tweaks to mana cost and duration in early T11, shield spamming is gone, and given mastery's very disappointing impact on other heals, the result is clear: Mastery is our worst stat.

Let me put it another way; unless you know why Mastery is bad, unless you have spent some time in the sims or the spreadsheet, you simply don't know enough to offer opinions on the subject. Stop spreading misinformation. Stop confusing people who don't read the entire thread (though they should, of course). Mastery is bad except in one very specific case and that case basically doesn't exist this tier (or, at least, isn't yet known to exist for certain).

Let go of Mastery. It's not the stat you should stack.

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I´m curious if it´s worth to use inner fire instead of inner will with mastery going down :/ Wonderful, something new to calculate.

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I´m curious if it´s worth to use inner fire instead of inner will with mastery going down :/ Wonderful, something new to calculate.

I was debating this myself, since really it only affects POM, and fort/Shadow besides the baseline PWS. Granted you lose runspeed, but I hardly ever find myself solely renewing/PWS spamming.

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I´m curious if it´s worth to use inner fire instead of inner will with mastery going down :/ Wonderful, something new to calculate.

Mastery isn't going down, it is down, and has been for quite some time. It's long overdue that the Priest community is finally coming to that realization that Mastery is our worst stat. Inner Fire is simply throughput, as opposed to conservation you'll be receiving through Inner Will. If you're only using PW:S for exclusively Rapture procs, Inner Fire should be the clear choice.

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There seems to be some kind of long-standing fixation on Mastery as a stat. Guys. Listen. Mastery sucks for us. The one and only time it is *ever* worth using is for when you are spamming shields. There look to be very few fights where that is the case (if any at all). Certainly there were none in the last tier, and I'm pretty sure there are none in this tier. Never stack mastery. If you can't be bothered to use the spreadsheet or simcraft, stop offering advice or suggestions to others, stop wondering outloud, and stop being emotional about the stat. There is irrefutable math on the subject, backed by both simcraft and the spreadsheet.

Mastery seemed like a great stat back in early Cataclysm largely because no one seemed to really look closely, and disc priests largely self-identified with shielding. The sad truth is, with the various tweaks to mana cost and duration in early T11, shield spamming is gone, and given mastery's very disappointing impact on other heals, the result is clear: Mastery is our worst stat.

Let me put it another way; unless you know why Mastery is bad, unless you have spent some time in the sims or the spreadsheet, you simply don't know enough to offer opinions on the subject. Stop spreading misinformation. Stop confusing people who don't read the entire thread (though they should, of course). Mastery is bad except in one very specific case and that case basically doesn't exist this tier (or, at least, isn't yet known to exist for certain).

Let go of Mastery. It's not the stat you should stack.

Amen is about all I can say, amen.

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If you're only using PW:S for exclusively Rapture procs, Inner Fire should be the clear choice.

True true, but especially in 10mans you won´t use your shield just for rapture. It´s kinda hard to figure out the point where IW becomes the better choice as every fight has another amount of Shield / PoM use (things like pi, ps not counted).

Morchok 10man hc, where you can (have to) shield the whole freakin fight it´s no discussion, but i think there is a, lets call it brakepoint, where the count of pw:s and pom will lead to IW instead of IF.

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True true, but especially in 10mans you won´t use your shield just for rapture. It´s kinda hard to figure out the point where IW becomes the better choice as every fight has another amount of Shield / PoM use (things like pi, ps not counted).

Morchok 10man hc, where you can (have to) shield the whole freakin fight it´s no discussion, but i think there is a, lets call it brakepoint, where the count of pw:s and pom will lead to IW instead of IF.

10m v. 25. does play a role in its use, I'll agree with you there. However, 10m v. 25m in general brings forth a lot of discrepancies between the role of PW:S in general.

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What people forget is that even in shield spammy fights like Morchok 10 H, you still use lots of direct heals, and haste is both far better for direct heals than mastery, and quite decent for shield spam throughput (due to gcd reduction).

I think even on Morchok 10 H haste is probably better, overall. (Of course in practice people gear/reforge for the toughest fight, and Morchok is the easiest heroic. Other heroics that I have seen definitely do not seem to favor mastery for disc).

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I recently killed heroic morchok on 10 man as a disc priest, and I think for that fight I still prefer haste stacking and using inner fire over inner will. The fight is very short, so mana is just not a problem. I don't see why you would use inner will unless you were having mana problems, and even then adding more spirit at the cost of a lesser stat like mastery or haste might be better than sacrificing the significant spell power from inner fire.

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I recently killed heroic morchok on 10 man as a disc priest, and I think for that fight I still prefer haste stacking and using inner fire over inner will. The fight is very short, so mana is just not a problem. I don't see why you would use inner will unless you were having mana problems, and even then adding more spirit at the cost of a lesser stat like mastery or haste might be better than sacrificing the significant spell power from inner fire.

Yeah, you can do one of two things:

1) Check you regen Cooldowns rotation (Power Infusion, Shadowfiend, Hymn of Hope) incluiding rapture CD, if its fine or wrong (Heavy spike damage timer).

2) Reforge for extra spirit if you have mana issue( Haste then mastery IMO).

I prefer no use inner will, because if you have Inner Fire always, you can react more fast to incoming damage(Like a fast dispel or heal for disrupting shadows in Warlord Zon'ozz) and you will not lose you GCD changing wills.

I hope in that fight test the shield spam with Heart of Unliving and H-Jaws of Defeat to check if its viable still using the Jaws, or change for Seal of Seven Sign for more HPS, and 18-20 points of mastery.

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I´m curious if it´s worth to use inner fire instead of inner will with mastery going down :/ Wonderful, something new to calculate.

We have known Mastery was bad since Firelands. You should have been healing with Inner Fire already, a full tier ago, unless you somehow didn't have the mana to survive.

I was debating this myself, since really it only affects POM, and fort/Shadow besides the baseline PWS. Granted you lose runspeed, but I hardly ever find myself solely renewing/PWS spamming.

As far as the run speed goes, enchant your boots with Lavawalker. It has been the recommended enchant the entire expansion, nearly every spec in the game should have run speed on their boots. In fact, it is the recommended enchant at the top of this Compendium. If you are going to post at least respectfully read the OP.

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What are the thoughts on the new meta changes? The fact that Burning Shadowspirit Diamond is now an increased 3% critical effect, as opposed to critical strike? This is going to be a regen v. throughput debate I'm sure, does anyone plan on utilizing this meta?

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As far as the run speed goes, enchant your boots with Lavawalker. It has been the recommended enchant the entire expansion, nearly every spec in the game should have run speed on their boots. In fact, it is the recommended enchant at the top of this Compendium. If you are going to post at least respectfully read the OP.
Ive always gone with the run speed enchant, every expansion and spec possible as you stated.

I just really followed the idea with the amount of mana saved solely on PWS which I do for things like borrowed time procs that Will would of been the better choice. Also just the disc priests I talked to from my server as well generally recommended inner will. Was simply saying I dont really agree with it, because of the raw throughput from Fire. Was just pointing out the obvious losses, and only uses inner will gives.

But hey, just in case your wondering I also read the full 34 pages of the other thread. Doesn't ever hurt to give and get opinions though either. Now that Ive run full dragon soul I also dont find the extra speed to be that useful at least in comparison of the extra speed being useful throughout Firelands to my opinion of play.

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What are the thoughts on the new meta changes? The fact that Burning Shadowspirit Diamond is now an increased 3% critical effect, as opposed to critical strike? This is going to be a regen v. throughput debate I'm sure, does anyone plan on utilizing this meta?

It's highly unlikely that it will change much at all, your still fighting a fairly high rng stat like crit. It's most probably brought it ever do slightly closer to the %mana meta but not enough for me to switch. %mana still gives me better Rapture returns. I can't see a 3% increase in crit effect being especially huge. Even on a 60k GH it's still only an extra what..900hp? It's not going to be a life saver.

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As a throughput meta, it's decent Take a look at your WoL report from a raid, see how much healing you did from crits, and multiply by 1.03 (it makes the entire heal 3% larger, not just the crit bonus, so you get an effective 206% heal on crits rather than 200%); this ignores overheal (which will be some) but overall gives you an idea of the impact it will have, which should be somewhere just under 1%.

Thinking of a stat or talent or gear choice as "pff it's only a percent, it isn't going to save a life" is not the right way to think about it. Sometimes tanks or raiders *do* die with tiny overkills. Likewise, calling crit an RNG stat, while technically correct, isn't particularly fair either -- remember you crit fairly often (most people should be around 25-30% raid buffed because of our large int pool and 5% crit from various classes/specs). Crits on tanks are very common and important because of Inspiration, and crits when raid healing likewise mean other healers' smart heals get to heal someone else. So while it is true any single heal may or may not crit, over a large sequence of heals, many will, and those are important.

Basically you should use the 3% crit gem unless you are running low on mana at times. 2% max mana is very good for disc because most of our regen is based on our mana pool (rapture, fiend, hymn, archangel, replenishment, etc... with rapture being the dominant one).

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As per the Burning metagem and the Ember metagem

I've been looking over a fight where we had high single-target healing, that is.. PW:S accounted for the most heals and also rapture gains were fairly consistent, such a fight should put the ember metagem in the best light possible and put the burning meta gem in a much weaker position. The fight I am using is Warmaster Blackthorn, and the reason we had low AoE healing was because this is a 10m fight and because our fire mages also soaked the swirls.

The total mana gains during the fight with ember was 401,280, with that amount of mana returns (from all % based effects) the net mana gain of that from the 2% meta-gem is 7868, with 3k mana added to total mana pool (estimating based on 150k mana pool.) that comes to a total of 10k mana from the 2% bonus over the entire fight (almost exactly 6 minutes long.)

For the healing done, I combined total crit healing and DA, after adjusting DA to take into account 30% bonus from normal PoH's. The amount the Burning metagem could have added was 475112. There's no easy way for me to see how much of those crits overhealed, but the overall overheal for the fight was 20%.

Since it seems unlikely that I'm going to get even 1/2 of that amount of healing out of 10k mana, and the meta will perform even better on the typical AoE fight, I just can't justify not taking the Burning Meta Gem. You would have to be sure that the vast majority of your crits overheal. Otherwise, the mana you are saving is at the cost of needing even more mana and time spent to make up for having less throughput.

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