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Nanyana

MoP beta discussion

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Thank you for the regen formula, I'm gonna run myself some calculations on possible scenarios.

The question that a poster above put earlier , about how would I heal current content with the disc MoP set of talents is exactly something that was crossing my mind during my raid on wednesday. Now, DS is a horrid aoe spamfest and for most times, as Shaara said, I'd be doing the same thing more or less, aka spam PoH, albeit having less PWS available for fights like Morchock - but then again, Morchock isnt really a roadblock. The moment that got me worrying was during Madness: I am assigned to take care of the parasite targets and the only way to keep them alive is to constantly spam heal them with gheals, with Archangel up and 3xgrace and shielding when possible. The targets just almost die many times, even with a fat aegis built on them by nice decent gheals and no exageration, its the crits that keep them alive, especially if some unlucky slam happens. Sure one could say I would spam SpS and they would get insta absorbed, problem is, they would not be enough. They are lower than gheal crits and I'd loose those nice stacking aegis. Another job I usually get is to top up the soakers on zonozz. Well, I would not be able to do that with Heal and Flash, during the 8 seconds dead time on SpS.

So disc is atm not quite working as a tank healer, which is what we are supposed to be heading to (?). What would be the point in playing disc only to spam PoH constantly? I can live with the limitations on variety on disc aoe because I like my flexibility, I like to dps in lul phases and I can spice things up a bit with a little preshielding. I do not, however, enjoy spamming PoH on itself. It might be effective, but hardly fun.

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From what I've read in the EN Forum FDCL outperforms Mindbender at roughly one PPM. In addition I've never been a huge Fan of HoH+Fiend especially not with 4 Minute Fiend CD and the higher output since you will have to spend much more mana and time in order to fully benefit from the mana gains, thus reducing the potential number of SF Casts per fight.

That depends on a lot of things. You can use mindbender twice in a 5 minute fight no problem as disc and as disc you also have penance and renew to cast and you can't really spam flash even with FDCL. In an AoE fight where you are casting AoE heals mostly lot FDCL is terrible for disc. I have tried both now as disc and I can confidently say that whoever said FDCL is better needs to rethink. Its silly to say that HoH+fiend automatically reduces your number of SF casts per fight. It all depends on the fight duration. In a 6 minute fight you will HoH+fiend on the 2nd use of fiend, not on the first and you will as early as you would without HoH. Chaining HoH with fiend is an absolute no brainer and if you do it the smart way you lose nothing at all. In a 3minute fight you can only cast fiend once anyway and mind bender will give you a nearly full mana bar with HoH.

Even without grace renew has the same HPM as heal in inner will only its instant. Renew in inner will out perform heal in inner fire, so it makes sense to go inner will and use it, unless you have FDCL. For disc I would take mindbender instead. FDCL is too reliant on SpS and heal for disc which is rubbish. If you have to cast other spells, and you do have to do that a lot as disc, then you lose a ton of value from it. For holy FDCL is incredibly good value due to serendipity, but for disc its quite a lot less. If you have to PoH spam at some point, you won't be getting free flashes, but mindbender will give you the same return.

Only for instant Spells and Penance. If you want to maximize Rapture returns it's rather unlikely you'll have penance ready that second. So that leaves us with Renew to potentially benefit...

You forgot PoM. Also assuming that you can't have penance up is really odd. You can cast renew and PoM if you need to do and delay casting up to 2.7seconds and you will still be able to chain penance+a cast. So that can be total of 4 spells with 15% haste. I do so quite regularly on live if I am tank healing. It makes perfect sense to get a renew up.

10% SP on all of our Spells compared with reduced costs for PW:S, Renew and PoM isn't really worth the tradeoff imho. Especially since I've never felt the need to use Renew as a Disc and will even less, once Heal is correctly benefitting from Grace. So It's basically using IW just for the sake of having a cheaper PW:S. And, well at best once in 10 Seconds a PoM, much likely way less - and PoM already is a rather cheap spell.

10% spell power is not 10% more healing, its below 5%. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me. Then you have overheal and the value of IF evaporates faster than a drop of water in the desert. When single target healing IW is superior.

FH gives you more HpS at better HpM, when you dont consider everything. This requires that you have grace on the target which is not a given first of all. Second it requires that you are in inner fire, which as I have explained before is not a great idea, unless HPM does not matter. Third it does not take into account overheal, which for PWS on the tank should be zero, under challenging circumstances, but for FH it wont be even if you are solo healing. Fourth it ignores the buff balance. @lvl 87 the mastery buff gives you 2.2k mastery and the 10% spellpower buff boosts both spells equally. The only thing that helps flash is crit, but crit is a very poor stat for disc, you will be avoiding it. As our mastery stacks higher and higher FH will lag behind PWS quite quickly. It already lags behind in inner will, but soon it will also lag behind even in inner fire.

SpS flash and heal are the alternatives to PWS not penance and renew, which is a spell on CD and renew a spell you can't cast all the time. You won't be replacing penance and renew casts with PWS, but SpS flash and heal casts. Heal and SpS have a bit better HPM than PWS, but drastically lower HPS and the HPM different is so small in inner will, that it's not worth bothering when it comes to calculating the return from rapture. Basically even without rapture it would make sense to cast PWS if you could afford it. For emergency use PWS is already much better than flash if the target takes enough damage to use it up and it will become even better than flash heal for HPS. For HPM they are fairly close at the moment, but only in inner fire and with haste stacked level 85 gear. Stack mastery and spirit as you should for dungeons and the slight advantage flash has in inner fire is going to disappear.

All in all, the returns from rapture are not affected significantly by the decrease in HPM that comes from using PWS frequently, UNLESS you have FDCL, which is not necessarily the best way. Also if you are mostly single target healing it's a no brainer to be in inner will and use PWS frequently at the moment. In inner fire it is also a great idea to use renew especially on grace stacked targets.

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That depends on a lot of things. You can use mindbender twice in a 5 minute fight no problem as disc and as disc you also have penance and renew to cast and you can't really spam flash even with FDCL.

(First of all and on the risk of getting a warning or infraction for simply writing that: I really enjoy this discussion with you even though we have extremely contradicting views on almost all of the spells and talents of a disc, so please take no offense on my replys to you)

Well "twice in a 5 minute fight" assumes that you'll burn enough Mana in the first minute for mindbender to fully take effect which isn't a given. Renew isn't a given as well since I assume you're talking renew5 and I'm not yet sure we'll have sufficient haste@90.

In an AoE fight where you are casting AoE heals mostly lot FDCL is terrible for disc. I have tried both now as disc and I can confidently say that whoever said FDCL is better needs to rethink.

Did not yet play in a Raid in MoP so I'm happy to hear your thoughts since in the new 5 mans FDCL is an outright nobrainer.

Its silly to say that HoH+fiend automatically reduces your number of SF casts per fight. It all depends on the fight duration. In a 6 minute fight you will HoH+fiend on the 2nd use of fiend, not on the first and you will as early as you would without HoH. Chaining HoH with fiend is an absolute no brainer and if you do it the smart way you lose nothing at all.

Well it isn't really a no brainer since you're assuming you will cast fiend w/o HoH and then have enough mana (and nobody else needing your HoH) to not use HoH in the next 4 minutes. On the other Hand we're talking about one ppm to even out the mana gains and giving you a stacking instant heal with a relatively long window to use up.

Even without grace renew has the same HPM as heal in inner will only its instant. Renew in inner will out perform heal in inner fire, so it makes sense to go inner will and use it, unless you have FDCL.

Then again so far I have no reason to believe I will be using Inner Will. Renew 4 Ticks for 5003 for me 3120 Mana. "Heal" heals for 19785 @2.400 Mana. So Renew has 6,41HpM and Heal has 8.23 HpM Heal HpS is Higher, Renew HpCT is higher but overheal is way higher. Heal will proc and refresh Grace, Renew won't and Heal will proc FDCL while Renew won't. And since the SpS's healing component now correctly benefits from Grace, evel SpS outperforms Renews HpM and HpCT (plus is assumed to stack and renew grace and proc FDCL). I can't see a scenario where I'd go Inner Will just for the sake of a spell that I have good backups for instead. Unless of course a fight with permanent movement.

For disc I would take mindbender instead. FDCL is too reliant on SpS and heal for disc which is rubbish. If you have to cast other spells, and you do have to do that a lot as disc, then you lose a ton of value from it. For holy FDCL is incredibly good value due to serendipity, but for disc its quite a lot less. If you have to PoH spam at some point, you won't be getting free flashes, but mindbender will give you the same return.

Well let's take a look at our heals. Penance, HF, PoM, PoH and Renew don't Proc. PoH is the only one of those we will be casting w/o cooldown/duration restriction. So we have Heal, Smite, SpS and FH which will proc FDCL and have no restrictions plus not only they will proc FDCL, they will either stack and/or renew Grace or reduce the penance CD and stack/or refresh Evangalism synergize with DI if skilled. So far I can't picture a general scenario where FDCL would underperform Mindbender by that much that I would a) forfeit FDCL and b) would usw Inner Will to boost PW:S and Renew.

You forgot PoM. Also assuming that you can't have penance up is really odd. You can cast renew and PoM if you need to do and delay casting up to 2.7seconds and you will still be able to chain penance+a cast. So that can be total of 4 spells with 15% haste. I do so quite regularly on live if I am tank healing. It makes perfect sense to get a renew up.

That would mean delaying Penance in order to get it to profit from BT. Since Penance now (assuming the tank has 3Grace) is best used on a hostile target on CD AND PW:S has a Cooldown it's rather likely that I won't have Penance aligned with PW:S. unless I want to give up a lot of Penance Throughput. Same for PoM. Why would I align that with BT? It is only worth it's money the more jumps it has. Even losing one jump does not dignify recasting it just for the sake of BT. So that would leave me with Renew - that doesn't align with BT either and (as stated above) is really not a "must have". So we're at 1 heal plus maybe one instant heal.

10% spell power is not 10% more healing, its below 5%. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me. Then you have overheal and the value of IF evaporates faster than a drop of water in the desert. When single target healing IW is superior.

But what would we need IW for? PoM Accounts for at best 5-7% overall healing (last time I checked and that time still with the 60% bonus 5 charges glyph). And that 7% if we're willing to forfeit it's HpM by recasting it when everybody's full just for having some AoE Buffer. So that leaves us with PW:S and Renew. Renew can by all means be replayed by SpS or Heal. So that leaves us mainly with PW:S at best once in 6 Secs. Don't really see that outshining IF.

FH gives you more HpS at better HpM, when you dont consider everything. This requires that you have grace on the target which is not a given first of all.

True that. But it's not even remotely given PW:S is off of CD. Plus IF you use it as an emergency heal aka non tank (since the tank will very likely be having grace) you can do this once every 6 seconds.

Second it requires that you are in inner fire, which as I have explained before is not a great idea, unless HPM does not matter.

Let's just say HpS does not matter and IF gives 5% more healing. So even ignoring the HpS gain you'd need more than 1/3 of your healing coming from instant heals to use IW to save mana. With a 6 Second CD on PW:S and gaining no mana if you recast PoM with charges left I don't see how this would happen.

Third it does not take into account overheal, which for PWS on the tank should be zero, under challenging circumstances, but for FH it wont be even if you are solo healing. Fourth it ignores the buff balance. @lvl 87 the mastery buff gives you 2.2k mastery and the 10% spellpower buff boosts both spells equally. The only thing that helps flash is crit, but crit is a very poor stat for disc, you will be avoiding it. As our mastery stacks higher and higher FH will lag behind PWS quite quickly. It already lags behind in inner will, but soon it will also lag behind even in inner fire.

While this is indeed a valid point for PW:S compared with FH (again, I only used FH to show the most mana inefficient alternative we have - and in low damage phases it would not be the FH but rather heal or SpS) this does again make a point for SpS replacing any renew, thus making Inner Will obsolete.

. Also if you are mostly single target healing it's a no brainer to be in inner will and use PWS frequently at the moment. In inner fire it is also a great idea to use renew especially on grace stacked targets.

I beg to differ. When tank healing it's a no brainer to not only spec FDCL but be in inner Fire since you'll AT best be using PW:S once in 15 Seconds and even if you WOULD keep Renew up (and there is really no need to, since SpS and Heal outshine it in HpS and HpM AND will proc FDCL.) it would not dignify being in IW.

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FDCL is too reliant on SpS and heal for disc which is rubbish. If you have to cast other spells, and you do have to do that a lot as disc, then you lose a ton of value from it.

FDCL also procs from smite - which still reduces the cd of penance via ToT afaik. I agree its a talent that seems more suitable for 5 mans, but atm I'm running the available dungeons on atonement heals, the occasional shield and free flash procs. I had to use poh quite little, as for spirit shell, I just cant find its place yet. The free flashes are nice for stacking grace too, especially if I choose to use penance for evangelism stacks.

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Here are some numbers for you to digest

Inner fire increase the effectiveness of spells by roughly 5.2% at my level of spellpower. I don't think that is likely to change, even if our spellpower increased. I think the % increase will remain the same.

Level 87 with my values:

Unbuffed (10560sp, 8.82% crit, 29.52% mastery --> aegis crit bonus = 25.13%) in inner will

Aegis bonus = 2.2*(1+mastery)*(crit), where crit and master are the %values divided by 100

PWS = 49241

flash = 33360 (43368 with grace and 54266 with crit and aegis)

Heal = 20818 (27063 with grace and 33287 with crit and aegis)

Renew = 21 056 (27373 with grace 33669 with crit and aegis)

With stat, spellpower and mastery buff (11 616sp, 9.14% crit, 37.95% mastery --> aegis crit bonus = 27.8%)

PWS = 56265

flash = 35787 base 46523 +grace, 59456+crit/aegis

The difference is halfed with just buffs. I think there is a crit buff but not quite sure how much it adds, but that can have quite a strong impact on FH since crit rates are low. But that does not take overheal into account.

Nevertheless casting PWS is a large HPS gain over FH even if we ignore OH due to borrowed time. Since lose 5% on one cast but gain 15% haste on the next 1-4 casts.

PWS in inner will is also 15% cheaper than FH, so again a significant boost to HPM.

That of course excludes FDCL, which would make flash cheaper.

Mindbender atm attacks 12 with borrowed time at my current haste level times and returns 81% of my mana pool (+10% from HoH) when chained with PWS/HoH. That is 55% more than shadowfiend. That requires 13 FDCL procs or 65 casts of procing spells. If you are casting 1 FDCL procing spell per 3s (This is very reasonable) that means 2.29minutes for the same mana return. This is of course contingent on casting 1 FDCL procing spell per 3s.

I compared both strats:

1) mindbender and PWS (when someone is likely to take a lot of dmg)/renew/penance/holy fire in inner will

2)FDCL and flash (when someone is taking big damage)/heal/penance/holy fire with PWS only on tank for rapture in inner fire

Strategy two is easier and more responsive hands down. Unfortunately it burns my mana extremely fast. The reason? Part of it is that heal is bugged and does not heal as much as renew atm. The biggest reason however is that A LOT of FDCL procs go into overheal since I use them preferentially when they are up. Strings of FDCL procs also force me to significantly delay penance use sometimes. Thus the return of the FDCL procs is not quite what I calcualted. The difference is that with strat 2 my group is mostly full health on the bunny encounter in brewery but by the end I am kinda gasping for mana, while with strat 1 ppl spend more time with larger health deficits, but I have no mana problems at all. The majority of Flash crits go into overheal, while now that I know the damage pattern I can get almost all my PWSs absorbed. In addition I do end up casting non FDCL flashes quite frequently when I get an unlucky string of no procs during a bad time.

Overall strat 1 in my hands is superior for HPM, but much more difficult to play with. Strat2 is easier but drains my mana faster, exactly as I expected. Switching to inner will with FDCL and casting more PWS immediately addresses the mana problem.

So strat 1 with FDCL instead of mindbender in dungeons at the moment is superior in my hands, despite being slightly less mana efficient, because it is much easier to heal ppl up. Strat 1 with mindbender is also tricky if you don't know what damage to expect. PWS are extremely large and don't always get absorbed if you are not careful.

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Well "twice in a 5 minute fight" assumes that you'll burn enough Mana in the first minute for mindbender to fully take effect which isn't a given. Renew isn't a given as well since I assume you're talking renew5 and I'm not yet sure we'll have sufficient haste@90.

Did not yet play in a Raid in MoP so I'm happy to hear your thoughts since in the new 5 mans FDCL is an outright nobrainer.

Well it isn't really a no brainer since you're assuming you will cast fiend w/o HoH and then have enough mana

Then again so far I have no reason to believe I will be using Inner Will. Renew 4 Ticks for 5003 for me 3120 Mana.

Well let's take a look at our heals. Penance, HF, PoM, PoH and Renew don't Proc.

That would mean delaying Penance in order to get it to profit from BT.

But what would we need IW for?

True that. But it's not even remotely given PW:S is off of CD. Plus IF you use it as an emergency heal aka non tank (since the tank will very likely be having grace) you can do this once every 6 seconds.

Let's just say HpS does not matter and IF gives 5% more healing. So even ignoring the HpS gain you'd need more than 1/3 of your healing coming from instant heals to use IW to save mana. With a 6 Second CD on PW:S and gaining no mana if you recast PoM with charges left I don't see how this would happen.

While this is indeed a valid point for PW:S compared with FH (again, I only used FH to show the most mana inefficient alternative we have - and in low damage phases it would not be the FH but rather heal or SpS) this does again make a point for SpS replacing any renew, thus making Inner Will obsolete.

I beg to differ. When tank healing it's a no brainer to not only spec FDCL but be in inner Fire since you'll AT best be using PW:S once in 15 Seconds and even if you WOULD keep Renew up (and there is really no need to, since SpS and Heal outshine it in HpS and HpM AND will proc FDCL.) it would not dignify being in IW.

We do have sufficient haste for renew 5 thanks to borrowed time. I cast a bunch of renews when I get borrowed time. Even renew 4 outperforms heal both in HPCT and in HPM in inner will right now (3.5k mana compared with 3.2k mana, but heal does not benefit from grace).

FDCL just makes healer easier in 5 mans. Its an absolute non-brainer for holy due to the synergy with greater heal, but for disc it actually underperforms in my hands. Its return is far lower than calculated.

Your making the usual theorycrafter mistake when thinking about tank healing, which is ignoring overheal. Even if you cast nothing but 1 PWS every 15seconds, which is not the case due to the divine insight. Every heal except PWS is highly likely to overheal. SpS much more so due to its 8s duration. Heal you will mostly be casting when the tank is full after SpS and the majority of them will overheal partially or completely. For the same reason a lot of the FDCL procs overheal. Looking at disc tank healing on live you are looking at least 20-30% OH and well over half your casts overheal. If there is two healers on the tank even more so. Thus the spellpower bonus from IF is almost completely wasted. Tank healing with inner will means that casting 1 PWS every 15 seconds is equivalent to 480mp5, with completely negligible loss in HPS. Actually IF right now makes things a lot worse, because it makes it slightly harder to absorb a PWS. Try it out and you will see, you will end up with a ton more mana at the end of the fight.

In the finished product DI is likely to be functional so we will probably be able to cast PWS more frequently, since it boosts HPS, while the HPS benefit of just being in inner will over IW is so small that its tough to observe on logs. I used to switch back and forth between IW and IF on live when tank healing so I would use my mana, until I checked the logs. There was no observable difference between being in IF and IW.

SpS does not perform better than heal and renew, except on paper. In real terms it is terribad. It absorbs so much that it invariably expires partly unused and with tank self healing, pom jumps, renew ticking and PWS which takes at least 10s to go, the heal is almost complete overheal. I rarely cast it and most of the time its a non tank target and cursing my luck because renew is too risky and penance on CD.

For AoE healing on live I am permanently in inner will since 1:1 PWS/PoH is more HPS than straight PoH even with archangel on. Add to that the fact that a lot of PoHs are cast on groups which are either competely or partially full and PWS/PoH HPS is dramatically higher than straight PoH spam. Since inner will allows me to maintain a higher PWS to PoH ration I am in IW permanently. If I cast 2:1 PoH/PWS in MoP, I will also be in inner will for aoe healing.

Instead of arguing here I urge you to try my strat out in a dungeon (as disc ofc) and post your results.

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Your making the usual theorycrafter mistake when thinking about tank healing, which is ignoring overheal. Even if you cast nothing but 1 PWS every 15seconds, which is not the case due to the divine insight.

Since PI has no mana costs... why on earth would I spec DI?

Every heal except PWS is highly likely to overheal. SpS much more so due to its 8s duration. Heal you will mostly be casting when the tank is full after SpS and the majority of them will overheal partially or completely. For the same reason a lot of the FDCL procs overheal.

Why would FDCL procs overheal? They stack a 20s buff which refreshes. It's your choice to use it.

Looking at disc tank healing on live you are looking at least 20-30% OH and well over half your casts overheal. If there is two healers on the tank even more so. Thus the spellpower bonus from IF is almost completely wasted.

If SP is wasted, mana conserve is wasted as well...

Tank healing with inner will means that casting 1 PWS every 15 seconds is equivalent to 480mp5, with completely negligible loss in HPS. Actually IF right now makes things a lot worse, because it makes it slightly harder to absorb a PWS. Try it out and you will see, you will end up with a ton more mana at the end of the fight.

Willing to try but how on earth would I end up with "a ton more mana" given that I sacrifice 5% Healing for 15%less mana, thus only gaining a raw 10% on instants, of which I only use one - and that just to get mana...

In the finished product DI is likely to be functional so we will probably be able to cast PWS more frequently

We would be - if we'd spam SpS a lot. But then again, at the current state: Why on earth would we want to cast PW:S often? And forfeit PI mana savings just to do so? (PI not only adds SF ticks, it costs nothing AND reduces mana costs by 20% - you'd seriously give that up for the off chance to get an additional shot on the most expensive heal in our arsenal?

For AoE healing on live I am permanently in inner will since 1:1 PWS/PoH is more HPS than straight PoH even with archangel on.

Why would I ever skill Archangel at the moment? ;)

Add to that the fact that a lot of PoHs are cast on groups which are either competely or partially full and PWS/PoH HPS is dramatically higher than straight PoH spam. Since inner will allows me to maintain a higher PWS to PoH ration I am in IW permanently. If I cast 2:1 PoH/PWS in MoP, I will also be in inner will for aoe healing.

Instead of arguing here I urge you to try my strat out in a dungeon (as disc ofc) and post your results.

Last time I tried I went out of every boss encouter with 80%+ Mana, still applying for Holy spec. (And I got 372 gear+ what I picked up during that runs) so that kind of test unfortunately won't help us at all ;)

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1) Since PI has no mana costs... why on earth would I spec DI?

2) Why would FDCL procs overheal? They stack a 20s buff which refreshes. It's your choice to use it.

3) If SP is wasted, mana conserve is wasted as well...

4) Willing to try but how on earth would I end up with "a ton more mana" given that I sacrifice 5% Healing for 15%less mana, thus only gaining a raw 10% on instants, of which I only use one - and that just to get mana...

5) We would be - if we'd spam SpS a lot. But then again, at the current state: Why on earth would we want to cast PW:S often? And forfeit PI mana savings just to do so? (PI not only adds SF ticks, it costs nothing AND reduces mana costs by 20% - you'd seriously give that up for the off chance to get an additional shot on the most expensive heal in our arsenal?

6) Why would I ever skill Archangel at the moment? ;)

7)Last time I tried I went out of every boss encouter with 80%+ Mana, still applying for Holy spec. (And I got 372 gear+ what I picked up during that runs) so that kind of test unfortunately won't help us at all ;)

1) Because for tank healing it will probably be more HPS than PI and with inner will you will get enough mana back from rapture to sustain the extra mana drain. The situation was the same on live when firelands started

2) Classic mistake number2. If I sit on it I lose procs, because it only stacks to 2. Since I always use spells that proc it with strat 2, if I dont use the procs faster than I generate it I lose value dramatically.

3) Classic mistake number3. Absolutely not. Lets say the tank has deficit X. If casting a heal twice will top him to full whether you have IF or not then all ur extra spellpower is wasted but that does not mean you dont have to spam. If 5% SP can help you reduce the number of casts you need more than 1-2%, you will have serious trouble healing it and a high chance of failure.

4) IW reduces cost of instants by 15%. That means you save 1/6th of a cast every time. At level 87 over a 2-3minute fight you are looking at 10-20k extra mana.

5) Already answered. Because you get better return on rapture and extra BT procs. That is a lot more mana then 2.5% haste and 2.5% reduced spellcosts, contingent on using PI on CD (which is highly unlikely since you will end up wasting it). If you are aoe healing PI will be better, if you are tank healing DI will be better. ToF might be competitive in both senarios, depending on the fight specifics.

6) I was talking about live. Still archangel is likely to be strong if you are mostly spamming poh/pws and you need throughput.

7) Did you try at lvl 85 with holy? And how long was each fight? At 85 with a holy spec I had no problem in a 4minute sha of doubt fight, my mana was just not going down. Keeping renews on ppl permanently with heal/FDCL flash and HW:serenity, means I almost never cast anything with a big mana cost and when the time comes to hit a GH or PoH its usually 20% cheaper. Shadowfiend brings my bar back to full. At lvl 87 however its less easy because of the spellcost inflation. FDCL is an absolute no brainer for holy in 5mans, but its not at all the same for disc.

===============

PS for the sake of completeness, sfiend can squeeze 10 GCDs in 15s (11 attacks). The haste break points are 11.11%, 25%, 42.86%. According to my char tooltip I have I have 9.42% haste, 25.83% with borrowed time, 31.30% with PI, 51% with PI and BT. Yes, PI helps hit that 3rd breakpoint, but its not so easy to chain it with fiend, unless you are happy to waste the haste part of it and just use it for regen. (I know the values are surprising that is what the tooltip says though seems like haste stacks multiplicatively i.e. 9.42% and 15% --> 1.0942*1.15 = 1.258675).

I will check to see if this is a tooltip error later

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I tested it. With PI and borrowed time I am getting 14 hits (+3) out of the mindbender. Unfortunately it seems that if the mind bender misses you get no mana back! This was supposed to be fixed ages ago.

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Void tendrils appear to work very differently from what is advertised. I was going from mob to mob in westfall and was able to grasp one after another without triggering any CD. If I stood next to a mob and cast tendrils multiple times I got the mob grasped by multiple tendrils, but still on CD was triggered. I wonder if its a bug or if its by design.

The mobs are attacking the void tendrils now, but since you can spam it you can pretty much root them forever

I didn't see anyone respond to this so I will. This is most likely a bug. Void Tendrils should be on a 30-second cooldown.

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I observed something quite interesting. The renew glyph always removes just 1 tick and boosts the remainder by the same amount regardless of haste.

For those who dont understand what this means

At 4 ticks Glyphed = unglyphed

At 5 ticks glyphed = 4*33 = 132%, while unglyphed = 125% i.e. glyphed heals for 5.6% more

At 6 ticks glyphed = 5*33 = 165% while unglyphed = 150% i.e. glyphed heals for 10% more

For me with 9.42% haste PWS (25.83% haste) nets me one extra tick, while PWS+PI (51% haste) gives two extra ticks.

The reason why this is so intersting is this. Renew does not consume borrowed time, so basically you can cast PWS and 4 hasted renews if you have even a little bit of haste. If you have 10% base haste you can cast 5 hasted renews per borrowed time.

What does this mean

In inner will for me renew heals for 5253 or 6987 if glyphed. Total values including crit and aegis are 5253*4*1.1821 = 24 838 and glyphed heals for the same amount.

With borrowed time however glyphed renew heals for 33037 ,while unglyphed renew heals for 31048

In inner will renew costs 3535 mana and with my values GCD is 1.371 or 1.167 with borrowed time.

If I cast PWS + 4 renews with the glyph the total cast time will be 1.371+4*1.167 = 6.039 seconds and total healing will be 49213 + 4*33037 = 181 361. Total mana cost is 3535*4+9600*0.85 = 22300. HPM: 8.133

flash heal under these conditions heals for 33284 without crit and aegis and costs 9600 mana.

Casting 1 PWS and 4 flash heals on 4 targets (assuming they don't have grace, which you can expect for non tanks), heals for 49213 + 4*33284*1.1820 = 206580 in inner will or 217529 in inner fire. Cast time = 1.371*4+1.167 = 6.651 sec Total mana cost is 46560 in inner will and 48000 in inner fire.

HPCT of PWS+4xrenew inner will = 30 032 for 22300 mana

HPCT of PWS+4xflash inner will = 31 060 for 46560 mana

HPCT of PWS+4xflash inner fire = 32 706 for 48000 mana

If you are under PI, then things get even worse, since you can now fit 5 renews in a single borrowed time and renew will tick 5 times. So HPCT = 255 694.25/6.142 = 41 630.5 for 17840 mana

For PWS+5flash HPCT is

Inner will: 245921.44/6.712 = 36639 for 37248 mana

Inner fire: 36639*1.053 = 38581 for 38400 mana.

For those of you who might be wondering, spells that have a base cast time consume borrowed time even if they are made instant through talents and glyphs. They also don't benefit from inner will (e.g. glyphed holy fire and FDCL flash)

In order for this analysis to be complete we also need to look at PoH.

13593+5290 (aegis) = 18883 with aegis

I am calculating total healing with PoH including crit and aegis by determining the crit boost with 60% aegis and then adding 30% aegis for all non crits:

base*[1+(1+1.2*(1+mastery))*crit] + 0.3*base*(1-crit)*(1+mastery)] =

base*[1+crit+(1+mastery)*(1.2*crit+0.3*(1-crit))] =

base*[1+crit + (1+mastery)*(0.9*crit+0.3)]

13593*(1+0.0877+(0.9*0.0877+0.3)*1.2974) = 21468 per target

PWS + 3 PoH = 371 233 healing (5 targets inner will) or 390 908 (5 targets inner fire). Total cast time: 1.5/1.0942+2*2.5/1.0942+2.5/1.2583 = 7.927 sec 46 831 49 314

HPCT PWS+3PoH (5 targets inner will) = 46831 for 32160 mana

HPCT PWS+3PoH (5 targets inner fire) = 49314 for 33600 mana

Incidentally HPM with inner will is 11.54 while with inner fire it is 11.63. So it takes 3 PoH casts per PWS to break even mana wise, if we ignore overheal. PoH is ofc an expensive spell. For cheaper (the cheaper the better) spells you need more casts to break even. However when factoring in overheal, which pretty much eats a sizeable chunk of the HPS benefit from inner fire, Inner will is pretty much certain to be better HPM.

To show that its worth casting PWS straight PoH spam is 46981 HPS in inner will or 49471 HPS in inner fire. Compare that with the values for PWS+3PoH they are practically the same as with PWS+3PoH. Ofc with PWS+2PoH you need to be in inner will, so you lose like 5% HPS. HPM for PoH alone is 14.94 (inner fire).Once overheal is accounted for however PWS has no overheal under heavy raid damage you end up with higher HPS and massively better HPM. With one rapture proc per 2 PWS you are up to 13HPM already in inner will. So very little overheal (15%) is needed to make PWS+3PoH better HPM. PWS + 5PoH might seem like it would be the most HPM, but it will most likely not be. The reason is that its not guaranteed that PWS will be absobed immediately and just 1 PWS per 12s is likely to lose a lot of rapture procs.

The HPM for PWS+4renew for comparison is 8.133.

This analysis explains why using PWS/renew/pom/holy fire and penance and ignoring SpS and heal is so effective. Its significantly higher HPM than SpS and significantly higher HPS than heal, even if you have FDCL or not. Once you get past the 1st haste break point for renew, BT renew will heal for as much as a flash heal for roughly 1/3rd the mana! For stationary deficits on 4 targets this BT renew in inner will is currently the most efficient strategy, especially if you have enough haste to get 5 ticks with borrowed time.

Inner will is better HPM and a noticeably reduced mana drain per second compared with inner fire unless you are spamming SpS without divine insight. This is especially true if you have FDCL

EDIT: Recalculated for 30% aegis.

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Divine aegis appears to be nerfed? It is now 30% for all heals and 60% for PoH. Looks like I have to recalculate. This also changes the balance between PWS and flash quite drastically.

At 8.77 crit and 29.74% mastery the crit+aegis multiplier is now 1+1.6*1.2974*0.0877 = 1.1821

Flash is 33284*1.1821*1.3 = 51 148 compared with 49213 for PWS.

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This analysis explains why using PWS/renew/pom/holy fire and penance and ignoring SpS and heal is so effective. Its significantly higher HPM than SpS and significantly higher HPS than heal, even if you have FDCL or not. Once you get past the 1st haste break point for renew, BT renew will heal for as much as a flash heal for roughly 1/3rd the mana! For stationary deficits on 4 targets this BT renew in inner will is currently the most efficient strategy, especially if you have enough haste to get 5 ticks with borrowed time.

Love the analysis, love the info on how glyphed Renew works. But then again. We won't be casting BT-Renew chains and even less BT-PI Renew chains nor will we (likely) be stacking haste nor does this calculation include the fact that Renew by far is the most overhealing spell in out arsenal (SpS not yet tested enough) nor apparently takes into account that heal will profit from grace (though it does not on Beta yet) or did I miss something.

HPCT (inner will) = 47492.3 for 32160 mana

HPCT (inner fire) = 50009.4 for 33600 mana

Incidentally HPCT per mana with inner will is 11.707 while with inner fire it is 11.799. So it takes 3 PoH casts per PWS to break even mana wise, if we ignore overheal. PoH is ofc an expensive spell. For cheaper (the cheaper the better) spells you need more casts to break even. However when factoring in overheal, which pretty much eats a sizeable chunk of the HPS benefit from inner fire, Inner will is pretty much certain to be better HPM.

I don't understand this calculations. What are we supposed to be casting for 30+K mana and 40+K Heal? Am I missing a digit in Healing? Secondly: Your calculation implies we should be a) using PW:S on CD during AoE Damge and b) stay in Inner Will to do so? Did you calculate the double dipping of aegis with crit?

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At 8.77 crit and 29.74% mastery the crit+aegis multiplier is now 1+1.6*1.2974*0.0877 = 1.1821

Flash is 33284*1.1821 = 51 148 compared with 49213 for PWS.

Please walk me through that: 33284*1.1821 is 39345 ((ah got that one, 51148 assumes Grace))

And what why is there a 1.6 in your calculation for flash heal. Totally confused.

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Please walk me through that: 33284*1.1821 is 39345 ((ah got that one, 51148 assumes Grace))

And what why is there a 1.6 in your calculation for flash heal. Totally confused.

Yep I forgot to add the 1.3 multiplier. I amended the post.

You are also correct in that my calculation is not quite right I applied the mastery to the whole of the crit multiplier not aegis! Lets define mastery%/100 = mastery and crit%/100 = crit

A critical heal is 100% larger from the heal part and an additional 30% of the crit as aegis. That means 30% of a crit is 60% of a normal heal, hence a crit from disc is 160% larger than a normal crit. Since we have mastery its the benefit of aegis is increased to 60%*(1+mastery%/100) so a crit from disc is 100%+60%*(1+mastery%/100).

Thus the crit multiplier is 1+[1+0.6*(1+mastery)]*crit = 2+0.6*(1+mastery). For 8.77% crit and 29.74% mastery that is

1+(1+0.6*1.2974)*0.0877 = 1.1560

So the effect of crit is smaller than I calculated. And the correct flash heal value excluding overheal and including grace is:

33284*1.156*1.3 = 50019.2

That also means the values in the above post are slightly higher than they should be. I will amend them.

We won't be casting BT-Renew chains ..... Renew by far is the most overhealing spell in out arsenal (SpS not yet tested enough) nor apparently takes into account that heal will profit from grace (though it does not on Beta yet) or did I miss something.

I don't understand this calculations. What are we supposed to be casting for 30+K mana and 40+K Heal? Am I missing a digit in Healing? Secondly: Your calculation implies we should be a) using PW:S on CD during AoE Damge and b) stay in Inner Will to do so? Did you calculate the double dipping of aegis with crit?

I don't see a reason to not cast a renew chain if there is an opportunity. Everytime you PWS it makes sense to renew the tanks (if there are two) and/or people who have a DoT on them or have a significant deficit. Even during aoe healing it makes sense to use renew occasionally.

HPCT = healing per cast time. Its basically the HPS and total mana cost of a PWS+3PoH sequence. My calculations show that there is effectively no difference in HPS/HPM between straight PoH spam and PWS+3PoH. My calculations show that PoH+3PWS spam is better than straight PoH spam if PoH has any overheal.

I did calculate the double dipping, in fact I overestimated it, because I made the same mistake of applying mastery to the heal part of the crit as well as aegis. I need to recalculate it

This is the formula I am using

base*[1+crit+(1+mastery)*(0.9*crit+0.3)]

Not that this formula can be rearranged to read:

base*[1+(1+0.9*(1+mastery))*crit+0.3*(1+mastery)]

This shows that the "double dipping", is not really a double dipping. The crit behaviour of PoH can be thought of as having a higher crit multiplier for direct heal part of the spell but no benefit at all from crit for the absorption part of a non-crit PoH. This is what the formula suggests. The 0.3*(1+mastery) part is the absorption part and as you can see it not influenced by crit at all. The crit multiplier for the direct heal however is dependent on mastery, but it turns out that it rises very slowly. Crit never performs as well for PoH as it does for normal spells. At high levels of mastery PoH in fact performs quite poorly.

For example look at my values

Normal heals gain 15% from crit and aegis but PoH gains 21468/18883 = 1.137, just 13.7%.

Crit looks massive when you are just looking at the base heal, but that is only a Part of PoH. The automatic aegis applied by PoH must be thought of as part of the base heal, since its always applied and it does not benefit from a crit as much as the direct heal part of PoH.

The crit multiplier for a normal spell is [2+0.6*(1+mastery)], while the crit multiplier for PoH is {2+1.2*(1+mastery)/[1+0.3*(1+mastery)]}.

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This shows that the "double dipping", is not really a double dipping. The crit behaviour of PoH can be thought of as having a higher crit multiplier for direct heal part of the spell but no benefit at all from crit for the absorption part of a non-crit PoH. This is what the formula suggests. The 0.3*(1+mastery) part is the absorption part and as you can see it not influenced by crit at all. The crit multiplier for the direct heal however is dependent on mastery, so there is probably a minimum level of mastery that must be reached before the return of crit for PoH is as good as it is for our other direct heals.

For example look at my values

Normal heals gain 15% from crit and aegis but PoH gains 21468/18883 = 1.137, just 13.7%.

I think I see where you come from. Just let me try to recap so we're really on the same page:

You're saying: Since PoH already gets an Aegis on non crits per default the relative value for "Crit" for PoH will usually be lower compared to normal heals and not higher since the Aegis double dipping does not outperform the difference between "no aegis at all" for normal heal non crits and "default aegis compared to double dipping aegis"?

Did I get that right? If yes, that's awesome information since it seems kind of counter-intuitive for PoH heavy fights and at least I for sure kind of fell for the trap "Oh well PoH double dips from crits, thus Crit must be awesome for PoH"

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I think I see where you come from. Just let me try to recap so we're really on the same page:

You're saying: Since PoH already gets an Aegis on non crits per default the relative value for "Crit" for PoH will usually be lower compared to normal heals and not higher since the Aegis double dipping does not outperform the difference between "no aegis at all" for normal heal non crits and "default aegis compared to double dipping aegis"?

Did I get that right? If yes, that's awesome information since it seems kind of counter-intuitive for PoH heavy fights and at least I for sure kind of fell for the trap "Oh well PoH double dips from crits, thus Crit must be awesome for PoH"

Yes that is correct. I had a look and it seems that there is no mastery breakpoint. Crit for PoH never performs as well as it does for other spells. In fact the higher your mastery the less well it performs compared to our other direct heals. However its important to realise that this just means that crit does not benefit PoH as much as it does normal spells. I haven't looked at crit in comparison to haste and mastery. I suspect crit is not going to be a great stat for PoH however, because its value for PoH is effectively static. The crit modifier increases extremely slowly for PoH.

Basically the crit modifier of PoH is

{2+1.2*(1+mastery)/[1+0.3*(1+mastery)]}, while for our other spells it is [2+0.6*(1+mastery)]

So the crit modifier for PoH when taking aegis into account is lower and rises more slowly with mastery.

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Crit for PoH never performs as well as it does for other spells.

I'm note sure I can follow you on this statement. Unless something got changed in the beta I overlooked, both crit and mastery are highly more effective for Prayer of Healing than our other spells, which is quite easy to prove:

Let v be the base healing value (that is, the amount we hit, not crit, for on average), c the crit rate, d the divine aegis factor (depending on mastery something around 0.4 for most of us) and \bar{v} the average healing value including crit and divine aegis.

The average healing done by any of our direct healing spells is then

v_{\rm hit} = v

v_{\rm crit} = 2v \, (1 + d)

\bar{v}_{\rm direct} = (1-c) \cdot v + c \cdot 2v \, (1+d) = v \, (1 + c + 2cd)

Now for Prayer of Healing, we get one Divine Aegis bubble for the hit itself, and another if we crit - but those two with the higher (critted) base value

v_{\rm hit} = v \, (1 + d)

v_{\rm crit} = 2v \, (1 + 2d)

\bar{v}_{\rm PoH} = (1-c) \cdot v \, (1 + d) + c \cdot 2v \, (1 + 2d) = v \, (1 + c + d + 3cd)

Now the derivative of \bar{v}_{\rm PoH} will always be higher than that of \bar{v}_{\rm direct}, scaled to v we get:

\frac{\partial \bar{v}_{\rm PoH}}{v \, \partial c} = 1 + 3d

\frac{\partial \bar{v}_{\rm direct}}{v \, \partial c} = 1 + 2d

As for mastery, the difference is even bigger:

\frac{\partial \bar{v}_{\rm PoH}}{v \, \partial d} = 1 + 3c

\frac{\partial \bar{v}_{\rm direct}}{v \, \partial d} = 2c

We see that for every value of d, the benefit of crit for Prayer of Healing is higher than for any direct heal, as is with mastery.

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v_{\rm hit} = v

v_{\rm crit} = 2v \, (1 + d)

\bar{v}_{\rm direct} = (1-c) \cdot v + c \cdot 2v \, (1+d) = v \, (1 + c + 2cd)

Now for Prayer of Healing, we get one Divine Aegis bubble for the hit itself, and another if we crit - but those two with the higher (critted) base value

v_{\rm hit} = v \, (1 + d)

v_{\rm crit} = 2v \, (1 + 2d)

It does not seem to me that you have not proved what you set out to. I will discuss what I think you have done a little later.

My analysis is certainly correct. In fact the final formula you posted for PoH, which is equivalent to mine behaves exactly the way I predicted. The easiest way for your to see it is to plot it vs crit and you will see exactly what happens.

For now let us look at the crit behaviour of PoH by focusing exclusively on the above 4 equations as they tell us all we need to know.

For a direct heal the crit multiplier is

\frac{v_{\rm hit}}{v_{\rm crit}} = 2*(1+D)

For PoH the crit multiplier

\frac{v_{\rm hit}}{v_{\rm crit}} = 2*(1+2D)/(1+D)

By inspection you can immediately see that the crit multiplier is automaticaly lower(!!) than for a direct heal. There exists no value of mastery for which the crit multiplier for a direct heal is smaller than the crit multiplier for PoH

To help visualise it lets say that D is 40%

For a direct heal the crit multiplier is

\frac{v_{\rm hit}}{v_{\rm crit}} = 2.8

For PoH the crit multiplier

\frac{v_{\rm hit}}{v_{\rm crit}} = 2.571428571

Thus a PoH crit is 2.5714 times larger than a PoH hit, while a direct heal crit is 2.8 times larger (!!). I am sure you will agree that having a lower crit multiplier means that PoH benefits less from crit.

Just in case you dont here is the proof: Thus if our amount of crit is C, the benefit to PoH will be (1+C*2.5714), while the benefit to direct heals will be (1+C*2.8). You can clearly see that the benefit of crit for PoH is simply not as high.

To demonstrate mathematically how mastery and crit interact for PoH. Lets look at the limit of the crit multiplier as D goes to infinity.

For direct heals there is no limit, while for PoH it is obvious that the limit is 4. At 2.57 we are already quite close to the asymptotic limit so as mastery increases the crit multiplier for PoH is going to increase quite slowly compared to that of a direct heal, which will increase quite fast.

I confirmed this in game. Just check the values I posted for PoH and flash heal or feel free to recalculate them yourself from the base healing values I provided. You will see that the crit multiplier for PoH is lower exactly as I predict.

So we can clearly demonstrate that your result is wrong. A question is why it is wrong. Looking at the rest of your equation I can immediately see the problem. The problem lies in the way you have normalised the rate of increase. To explain:

\frac{\partial \bar{v}_{\rm PoH}}{v \, \partial c} = 1 + 3d

\frac{\partial \bar{v}_{\rm direct}}{v \, \partial c} = 1 + 2d

\frac{\partial \bar{v}_{\rm PoH}}{{\partial c}}, is the absolute rate of increase. This tells us roughly the absolute amount of healing added by an increase in crit for a given level of mastery, which is not very useful, because (a) it directly depends on the amount healed by the spell and (b) it does not tell us the % increase. To find the relative rate of increase i.e. the rate in the % increase in healing amount, we need to normalise for the non crit heal amount. You have correctly attempted to normalise this in the two formulas I quote above. However you have chosen the wrong thing to normalise to. 1/u is the normalisation factor for a direct heal, but not for PoH. The correct normalisation factor for PoH is 1/[u*(1+D)].

Let us now correctly calculate the relative rate of increase with crit for PoH and direct heals:

\frac{\partial \bar{v}_{\rm PoH}}{v \, \partial c} = \frac{1 + 3d}{1+d}

\frac{\partial \bar{v}_{\rm direct}}{v \, \partial c} = 1 + 2d

We can clearly see that the relative increase in PoH with crit is always smaller than it is for direct heals. So the answer is no PoH does not double dip with crit. It always benefits PoH less than it does direct heals and the more mastery you have the bigger the difference(!!).

As for mastery, the difference is even bigger:

\frac{\partial \bar{v}_{\rm PoH}}{v \, \partial d} = 1 + 3c

\frac{\partial \bar{v}_{\rm direct}}{v \, \partial d} = 2c

We see that for every value of d, the benefit of crit for Prayer of Healing is higher than for any direct heal, as is with mastery.

I am afraid this is also incorrect for the same reason. When you do it correctly you find that mastery has diminishing returns for PoH, but it does not have diminising returns for direct heals.

This analysis does not tell us whether crit or mastery are good for PoH compared to haste. That is something completely different. However they do tell us how these two stats behave. For the allowed values of mastery, PoH pretty much has a fixed crit multiplier (ranges from 2.3333 to roughly 2.6), so the value of crit does not benefit from mastery. The value of mastery itself clearly has diminishing returns, so even if it does turn out to be better than haste (I don't think so), it is highly likely that at a certain level it will drop below it.

However all this ignores a critical factor, mastery and crit increase HPM, while haste doesnt. Also mastery ignores overhealing pretty much while crit and haste don't. The jury is not out on whether mastery and crit are good or bad stats for PoH. I suspect that mastery is good, while crit is bad. However two things is absolutely clear. (1)PoH does not double dip from crit and gains very little benefit from mastery. (2) Mastery has diminishing returns, but has a better interaction with crit than normal spells.

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Thus a PoH crit is 2.5714 times larger than a PoH hit, while a direct heal crit is 2.8 times larger (!!)

Ah yes, I understand your claim now. The relative increase of a crit over a normal hit is smaller for Prayer of Healing than the other spells; and limited to 4. My calculations were never meant to show otherwise.

Let me rephrase my original remark: crit and mastery as a stat do increase Prayer of Healing's healing value (in absolute terms, stat for stat) stronger than for our direct healing spells. This holds true simply because the actual healing value is a smaller fraction of the total value we get from this spell.

My point of view rooted in the fact that I modeled Prayer of Healing explicitly for its real world effect (in healing done) with secondary stats (excluding haste), therefore the relative increase of crits over hits and its behaviour was of no importance.

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FYI some info on Spirit Shell changes

- It now stacks @60% Priest HP (up from 40%)

- It will now apply Grace

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Ah yes, I understand your claim now. The relative increase of a crit over a normal hit is smaller for Prayer of Healing than the other spells; and limited to 4. My calculations were never meant to show otherwise.

Let me rephrase my original remark: crit and mastery as a stat do increase Prayer of Healing's healing value (in absolute terms, stat for stat) stronger than for our direct healing spells. This holds true simply because the actual healing value is a smaller fraction of the total value we get from this spell.

My point of view rooted in the fact that I modeled Prayer of Healing explicitly for its real world effect (in healing done) with secondary stats (excluding haste), therefore the relative increase of crits over hits and its behaviour was of no importance.

I am afraid that is also wrong. I urge you to carefully read my whole post, rather than just that bit. You did not calculate the absolute rate of increase. What you attempted to calculate was the relative rate of increase, but unfortunately you made a mistake and the formulas you came up are completely wrong. I am sorry to say that no conclusions whatsoever can be drawn from your analysis.

If you want to look at the absolute rate of increase in the healing produced by PoH with respect to crit:

PoH: Base_{PoH-no aegis}*(1 + 3d)

Direct: Base_{direct}*(1 + 2d)

This is a kind of meaningless value. The absolute increase is not really that important. The relative increase (what you tried to calculate) is what matters.

To show you why, lets say that you have a spell that heals for 1000 000 and adding X% crit you get an absolute increase in healing of 100. Compare that with a spell that heals for 100 and adding x% crit, it produces an absolute increase of 50. What you are trying to say is because the increase for the first spell is 100 compared to 50 for the second spell, in real world terms the first spell benefits more from crit.

hat however is completely wrong. For the 1st spell if you cast the spell 10 times you will get 10,000,000 healing. Adding x% crit will increase that healing to 10,001,000, which is effectively no different than what you had without that crit and all the stat budget points you spent on it were utterly wasted.

For the second spell casting it 10 times nets you 1000 healing, but when you add x% crit you get 1500. In contrast to the 1st spell that x% crit increased your healing massively.

In the same way if we look at absolute rate of increase for say 50% mastery with my value of spell power.

Rate of increase with crit {PoH} = 13523*5*(1 + 1.5) = 169037.5

Lets do the same for flash heal

Rate of increase with crit {flash} = 33284*2 = 66568

The base healing of flash is 33284, while the base healing for PoH is 13523*5*(1+0.3*1.5) = 98041.75

That means a 1% increase in crit rate raises flash from 33284 to 33949.68 (i.e. +665.568) which is a 2% increase

In contrast a 1% increase in crit rate raises PoH from 98041.75 to 99732.125 (i.e. + 1690.375) which is a 1.7% increase. I.e. if you are spamming PoH and you take 1% crit you will see a 1.7% increase in healing. If you are spamming flash on the other hand you will see a 2% increase in healing with crit. In other words flash heal benefits from crit 18% more than PoH does.

In other words taking 1% crit has a much higher value for spaming a direct heal like flash, compared to PoH. This is because the absolute rate of change is based entirely on a higher crit multiplier for the direct heal part of PoH and it ignores the absorption part of PoH, which is quite frankly huge. The difference becomes higher and higher as mastery gets larger, because aegis becomes a bigger and bigger part of PoH.

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[...]

Yes, I do not deny any of these points made, nor did I ignore the majority of your post.

It is indeed true that my calculations are not suited to compare our different spells on how they are increased by crits. As I already said, my original formalism was used for Prayer of Healing exclusively, and I never examined the proper interaction with other spells. Using v to normalize the derivatives was used to cancel out any talents or other effects, and is not suited per se for anything more. I did not make the point I intended to.

That being said, the fact that Prayer of Healing crits are a lower relative increase (and absolute, if counting v (1+d) as the 'hit') than for our direct healing spells seems to me as a pure academic endeavour. Otherwise one could think you argue that Prayer of Healing is a weaker spell because it scales weaker than the rest due to its baseline Divine Aegis. While the scaling statement is mathematically true, it is a dead end gameplay-wise:

Consider Prayer of Healing works like in Wrath of the Lich King, creating a Divine Aegis bubble of size d*2v on every crit. We'd have equal scaling behaviour.

Now add a constant bubble d*v (not d*2v) on every hit/crit (kinda the way it was in the first Cataclysm days). The relative increase by Prayer of Healing just got weaker for every %crit, yet would you say the spell scales weaker in general? This very effect gets even bigger by its actual behaviour with 2*d*2v bubbles.

In other words: The notion of this "weaker" scaling is due to some additional effect we have on non-crits. One could argue of course that because of this mechanic we are at a disadvantage to Holy or other classes not using this effects to achieve their proper output, but that's another round of number crunching. And on this one, one should not underestimate the fundamental benefits of absorbs (as well as its downsides of course), which we completely ignore in our current calculations.

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In other words: The notion of this "weaker" scaling is due to some additional effect we have on non-crits. One could argue of course that because of this mechanic we are at a disadvantage to Holy or other classes not using this effects to achieve their proper output, but that's another round of number crunching. And on this one, one should not underestimate the fundamental benefits of absorbs (as well as its downsides of course), which we completely ignore in our current calculations.

Holy PoH is significantly bigger than disc PoH for sure and now that aegis is nerfed to 30% the difference is even bigger. Even worse I am not sure we will be able to spam PoH and build large absorption stacks at the begining of the expansion. With spirit shell the way it is right now we are kinda pigeonholed into tank healing.

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from mmo-champion:

- Desperate Prayer can now be cast in Shadowform.

- Divine Insight Shadow effect has been changed - Periodic damage from your Mind Flay refreshes the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain on the target.

- From Darkness, Comes Light Surge of Light now has a 15% chance to proc. Surge of Darkness changed - When your Shadow Word: Pain deals damage, there is a 15% chance your next Shadow Word: Death will treat the target as if it were below 20% health.

Shadow

- Mind Surge (NNF) now has a 10% chance to proc.

- Shadow Orbs - New - Generated by Mind Blast and Shadowy Apparitions. Used to cast Devouring Plague and empower Psychic Horror.

- Shadowy Apparitions now has a 20% chance to summon a shadow. Now deals (615 + 60.0% of SP) shadow damage and grant you a Shadow Orb. You can now have up to 3 Shadowy Apparitions active, down from 15.

- Vampiric Touch now grants 2% of maximum mana, down from 3%.

Major Glyphs

- Glyph of Dark Binding now affects Prayer of Mending, Renew, and Leap of Faith instead of Binding Heal, Flash Heal, and Renew.

- Glyph of Psychic Scream now also affects your Psyfiend's Psychic Terror.

- Glyph of Vampiric Touch is now Glyph of Devouring Plague and affects Devouring Plague.

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