Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

nextormento

Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting.

572 posts in this topic

Unless they do add some Crit interacting mechanic to Windwalker, I'm pretty sure that Mastery will be the best stat after a certain amount of Haste (or even at any Haste level) and, since it scales linearly, will remain that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the current rating of 1% total damage increase at 10 stacks per 300 mastery rating holds then its easily conceivable that after the rough haste cap mastery will be our best secondary. Before any mastery on gear comes in were looking at 7800 worth of calculated mastery between the base value and the raid buff. That puts TEB at a 36% damage increase while active just by base value with double the uptime now. With current chi per minute values of the ~6000 haste soft cap were looking at a rough 50% uptime of new TEB, so after that point Mastery will take a huge spike in value comparative to haste.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using the formula:

TEB Scalar = 1 + (0.01 * Stacks) + (0.0002 * Stacks * Mastery%)

I'm getting a lower DPS gain for Mastery than with Crit and Haste.

Based on my spreadsheet, I think the Stat priority will be Crit ~ Haste >> Mastery for 5.2. Changing mastery will be really good for our rotation, but will be a wash in terms of how much DPS throughput it will provide.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Anhp6CgrSES9dExqX1JiR2hzYWNKVzZnTlFENHVmSHc#gid=6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RSK buff and TB 2.0 buff are cumulative or multiplicative?

--

By the way , even w/o spreadsheet calculation, we can assume that even with this new TB (more than 20% dmg) Haste>Mastery since Haste = More Chi = More TB/TB UpTime

And even more with this new TB we can see that CRIT is slightly better for 2H over HASTE and HASTE over CRIT for DW

Due to the fact that 2H hit harder on SPELL and DW has more extra dmg from white dmg.

Unless they do add some Crit interacting mechanic to Windwalker, I'm pretty sure that Mastery will be the best stat after a certain amount of Haste (or even at any Haste level) and, since it scales linearly, will remain that way.

Not really, since CRIT is always "boosted" by DMG Multiplier ( like RSK or TB, or TP even) so basically CRIT>Mastery , unless the mastery is something really good like Retri Mastery.

Even more at high haste rating, that means more chi and therefore more TB/TB UpTime, CRIT will be > Mastery because we'll have and extra DMG Multiplier

**Not Theorycraft**

Imho Mastery will be very usefull on DW monks with high HASTE rating, since even with low CRIT they will have an huge boost DMG from AA and Tiger Proc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's why I feel like it's a bit early for us to start saying that mastery is going to shift in our priorities - for all we know, it could change prior to even hitting the PTR. Not to say it isn't a great change (it feels like we've finally been heard).

The most welcome part of the change, however, is greater TeB uptime. If one were to simply Jab > BoK (which obviously we don't), it takes a full 80 GCDs (ignoring Chi gains such as Power Strikes) just to reach 10 stacks of TeB. The proposed change cuts that in half, meaning greater uptime, and an easier time to pool it before Timewarp/Lust/Hero or other CDs. That in and of itself seems like it'll at least be a 1% overall increase for us, even if the actual damage increase for TeB is cut in half (and ignoring its gains from the new Mastery). I wonder if this also means that it would be more of a loss to use it prematurely (ie, before hitting 10 stacks) - it seems like it to me, but I don't have the tools right now to actually test it.

I can see Mastery becoming stronger for offspec WWs with high haste (such as Brewmasters that may go WW for certain fights), just to grow on what Shadown's already said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RSK buff and TB 2.0 buff are cumulative or multiplicative?

--

By the way , even w/o spreadsheet calculation, we can assume that even with this new TB (more than 20% dmg) Haste>Mastery since Haste = More Chi = More TB/TB UpTime

And even more with this new TB we can see that CRIT is slightly better for 2H over HASTE and HASTE over CRIT for DW

Due to the fact that 2H hit harder on SPELL and DW has more extra dmg from white dmg.

Not really, since CRIT is always "boosted" by DMG Multiplier ( like RSK or TB, or TP even) so basically CRIT>Mastery , unless the mastery is something really good like Retri Mastery.

Even more at high haste rating, that means more chi and therefore more TB/TB UpTime, CRIT will be > Mastery because we'll have and extra DMG Multiplier

**Not Theorycraft**

Imho Mastery will be very usefull on DW monks with high HASTE rating, since even with low CRIT they will have an huge boost DMG from AA and Tiger Proc

A lot of this is true, but you still have to account into resource capping. Crit still seems to retain its value in early testing, as well as haste holding its conditional value. Haste value will change pending encounter as well. Already common sense, but on a patchwerk fight youll spend much more time with your feet planted to the ground dpsing, thus increasing the energy regen needed to stay capped. On more movement intensive fights bonuses to the damage dealt when you can dps will be more beneficial thus crit and the revamped mastery will be of greater benefit. As it stands now stat weights seem to have been buffed, but priority hasnt been changed much. Haste to your soft cap will still be top stat priority. Another question Ive considered is holding as close to 100% uptime on TEB as possible. Since the duration is 15 seconds despite the amount of stacks used, a greater uptime with the flat bonuses provided by our mastery values would possibly bring a greater increase by using TEB as soon as the buff fades. With only 1% damage buff per stack, it would seem like having down time to increase the benefit marginally would be a greater loss than having a slightly lower buff for a greater uptime. Id be curious to see any numbers on that idea ironed out by those better at math than I

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Another question Ive considered is holding as close to 100% uptime on TEB as possible. Since the duration is 15 seconds despite the amount of stacks used, a greater uptime with the flat bonuses provided by our mastery values would possibly bring a greater increase by using TEB as soon as the buff fades. With only 1% damage buff per stack, it would seem like having down time to increase the benefit marginally would be a greater loss than having a slightly lower buff for a greater uptime. Id be curious to see any numbers on that idea ironed out by those better at math than I

In general it's going to be beneficial to use sub 10 stack tigereye if abilities are coming off cooldown. Meaning if Rsk and FoF have 5 seconds left on each other then delaying a 7 stack refresh by 4 seconds (regardless of if you just sit there pooling energy / chi during those 4 sec) is better than using tigereye and essentially losing out on 4 seconds of solid damage out put etc. Given that we can stack past 10 now, it also means we should be able to delay 10 stacks for trinket icds / skull banner which is again another reason which promotes sub 100% uptime on TeB buff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If the current rating of 1% total damage increase at 10 stacks per 300 mastery rating holds then its easily conceivable that after the rough haste cap mastery will be our best secondary.

Those calculations are additive and not multiplicative though.

Say without using TeB in your rotation you have 100k dps sustained.

Now with the addition of 10 stack tigereye you gain 50% increased damage @ a 6/10 uptime. So a "static" 30% damage increase, putting you at 130k sustained.

1% total damage @ 6/10 uptime = 0.6% damage (of base 100k) per 300 mastery.

0.6% of 100k is 600 dps, 600 dps from 130k sustained is a 0.46% static damage increase per 300 mastery

Using those rough numbers, you can see that you're going to want a balance between mastery and crit/haste since as your base damage (modified by AP, Agi, Haste and Crit) increases, your dpp for mastery is also going to be raised.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Those calculations are additive and not multiplicative though.

Yea I made the mistake of adding in the flat damage buff for the full 10 stack value that mastery will buff when I did my quick run through on the math to the single stack base value. Since we only get the 1%/300 at 10 stacks instead of flat like I had, the only time I could actually see delaying a full 10 stack usage would be to line up cd usage which actually shouldnt be a problem with our ability to pool stacks past 10 then use them consecutively.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone made a more recent list of trinkets and their rankings? What is the soft cap for haste as well? I seem to remember reading 6800 or so but I can't find it now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Has anyone made a more recent list of trinkets and their rankings? What is the soft cap for haste as well? I seem to remember reading 6800 or so but I can't find it now.

There is no cut and dry soft haste cap. It depends on if you are taking Power Strikes or Ascension and also how much mastery you have. Generally if you have 15% - 20% haste you are in a good spot with ascension, but your mileage may vary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update on my old trinket list:

I ran SimulationCraft 510-8 to get scale values for the simc monk 1h normal mode and heroic mode profiles:

Normal mode gear Monk dual wield (crit: 6081, haste: 4047):

agi: 3.12

AP: 1.09

crit: 1.32

haste: 1.68

mastery: 0.86

[table]trinket|from|description|icd|proc%|procs every|score

[iTEM]87057[/iTEM]|heroic|mastery, agility proc|45|15|48.34|6146

[iTEM]87167[/iTEM]|heroic|agility, crit proc|105|15|108.34|5953

[iTEM]86132[/iTEM]|normal|mastery, agility proc|45|15|48.34|5445

[iTEM]79328[/iTEM]|darkmoon card|agility, agility proc|55|20|63.06|5303

[iTEM]86332[/iTEM]|normal|agility, crit proc|105|15|108.34|5275

[iTEM]93258[/iTEM]|5.1 rep|agility, crit use|60|-|-|4861

[iTEM]86791[/iTEM]|lfr|mastery, agility proc|45|15|48.34|4823

[iTEM]86890[/iTEM]|lfr|agility, crit proc|105|15|108.34|4675

[iTEM]89082[/iTEM]|valor points|agility, haste use|60|-|-|4876

[iTEM]86043[/iTEM]|normal|agility, haste use|60|-|-|4876[/table]

Heroic mode gear Monk dual wield (crit: 8035, haste: 3691):

agi: 3.43

AP: 1.20

crit: 1.49

haste: 1.63

mastery: 0.73

[table]trinket|from|description|icd|proc%|procs every|score

[iTEM]87057[/iTEM]|heroic|mastery, agility proc|45|15|48.34|6494

[iTEM]87167[/iTEM]|heroic|agility, crit proc|105|15|108.34|6600

[iTEM]86132[/iTEM]|normal|mastery, agility proc|45|15|48.34|5752

[iTEM]79328[/iTEM]|darkmoon card|agility, agility proc|55|20|63.06|5829

[iTEM]86332[/iTEM]|normal|agility, crit proc|105|15|108.34|5848

[iTEM]93258[/iTEM]|5.1 rep|agility, crit use|60|-|-|5381

[iTEM]86791[/iTEM]|lfr|mastery, agility proc|45|15|48.34|5095

[iTEM]86890[/iTEM]|lfr|agility, crit proc|105|15|108.34|5183

[iTEM]89082[/iTEM]|valor points|agility, haste use|60|-|-|5166

[iTEM]86043[/iTEM]|normal|agility, haste use|60|-|-|5166[/table]

There are a couple of things to consider here:

First of all the simc monk profiles might be outdated, they go for full crit while you might want some more haste (I am personally also going for full crit atm).

The VP and trash drop trinkets with haste on use seem to be good on paper, but ask yourself if you can really use them on cooldown without energy capping.

On normal mode it really comes down to choosing two out of three trinkets: Bottle/Terror/Relic.

The Bottle procs alot but has the base mastery as drawback. The Terror doesnt proc very often and does not proc agi, but has a nice amount of agi as base. Relic is sort of in between that, but has agi as base stat and as proc.

Any feedback is appreciated and I will try to update this list of needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Has anyone made a more recent list of trinkets and their rankings? What is the soft cap for haste as well? I seem to remember reading 6800 or so but I can't find it now.

I created an excel spreadsheet that lists all of the trinkets and their upgrade counterparts. All you have to do is put your stat weights in the Green cells for WW and Blue for BrM. Go to either the Tank or DPS trinkets, pick your reforge option and then hit Sort. It will sort the list based on the Value Highest>Lowest.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/osh5xm99y2o8xtb/Trinkets.xlsm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is no cut and dry soft haste cap. It depends on if you are taking Power Strikes or Ascension and also how much mastery you have. Generally if you have 15% - 20% haste you are in a good spot with ascension, but your mileage may vary.

So "generally" you should be looking at 6378-8504 haste if you take Ascension?

That just feels like a lot of haste to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There isnt really a hard number. Your personal haste value to become soft capped for a specific encounter will vary. Strategies that your raid uses may differ, giving you more or less time of un-disturbed dps, luck with mastery procs coming at good times, mastery level, etc. In general the only way you can know how much haste to look at aiming for on a specific fight is just by playing it, finding what youre comfortable with and have the best results with.

While undergeared, Im running about 3k haste atm and I rarely have resource deficits, just to use that as an example. Another thing to consider is that while your haste value on a target dummy may be ~6k to get to your resource cap, at any given time you might have to move, stop dps on a boss for a few seconds, etc. In which case crit gains in value over haste due to the need to capitalize on the time you do have to dps.

TL;DR play around with it. Your personal haste cap wont be as high as 6k usually, and you should find the value that you play the best with for each encounter since it will vary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So "generally" you should be looking at 6378-8504 haste if you take Ascension?

That just feels like a lot of haste to me.

No... I've been doing just fine at a nudge south of 4k haste. In fact, most of the monks I've seen who pull top parses are sitting at 4K, maybe 5K max (which, I have NEVER seen a top-end Windwalker go that high). After that, they go for pure crit. Note that I typically use Fists of Fury and Energizing Brew on CD.

The only time I am sitting at or above 6K is if I happen to be tanking that night - at which point I spec into Power Strikes since Ascension is just too much energy. And even then, I can see the difference in my damage haste stacked vs. crit stacked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should preface my question by mentioning that most of my observations are based on LFR with full buffs.

I keep hesitating to use FoF unless I am certain that I will not cap energy while doing so, which is very seldom for some reason. I keep reading that it should be used pretty much on cooldown so I wonder

1. Is it ok to cap energy during FoF?

2. Should it be used during Heroism/Bloodlust?

3. Is it worth using TEB for FoF?

4. Should FoF be used if it'll delay RSK by 1-2 seconds?

5. Is there a damage reduction mechanic for FoF depending on how far from the target you are? (I keep seeing some funny numbers on single target fights)

Any feedback is appreciated

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. Is it ok to cap energy during FoF?

2. Should it be used during Heroism/Bloodlust?

3. Is it worth using TEB for FoF?

4. Should FoF be used if it'll delay RSK by 1-2 seconds?

5. Is there a damage reduction mechanic for FoF depending on how far from the target you are? (I keep seeing some funny numbers on single target fights)

I did some calculations for capping energy, and delaying RSK during FoF:

http://elitistjerks.com/f99/t129814-windwalker_dps_flurry_tender_fisting/p33/#post2229983

I'm not a 100% sure that those calculations are perfect, so what I would suggest is to use FoF only if the cooldown left on RSK is more than 2-3 seconds, and you are below 80 energy ( in which case you will cap some energy).

2. I think you can use it during BL/Heroism (because FoF channel time will be shorter too), but you are less likely to find a good moment to do so.

3. yes.

5. If so I don't know about it and I haven't seen anything to suggest it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the ptr now, the multiplier is most def working exactly as it was worded. You get the 1.6 base. after that every 600 mastery = .2% more damage PER STACK so 600 mastery would be 2% more damage at 10 stacks.

As it stands, and I know this isn't worth much, but its been roughly a 35-40k dps gain on the dummy so far and I haven't even been weaving in chi wave or anything fancy.

I'm going to be running some more testing soon when mailboxes and portals start working.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As it stands, and I know this isn't worth much, but its been roughly a 35-40k dps gain on the dummy so far and I haven't even been weaving in chi wave or anything fancy.

Yea, I saw the same thing with my spreadsheet calculations when they posted the patch notes. Mastery scales exponentially, kind of like how Armor Penetration used to work. I'm sure that they are going to have to change the coefficient, or change the mastery a little before live. Right now it's a stronger stat than agility once you get enough of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A note on Nimble Brew - it does not share a cooldown with the PVP trinkets or human racial.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.