Tyvi

Blood Tanking - Actively Mitigating since before it was cool [5.4]

342 posts in this topic

The taunting is definitely a good practice for DPS, especially since you want to do this anyway for Vengeance since you get half of the Vengeance the current tank has when you do this.

The SoB interaction with avoidance has certainly been a pleasent surprise though it is the most obvious when you tank multiple mobs (though I can't help but feel the waste when you easily overcap on RP doing that :V).

I think that if I was wearing tank gear more often, I would go for an hit cap/exp soft cap > mastery (150%) > avoidance > mastery > exp hard cap build myself since it combines both DPS and survival without making many trade offs like a full mastery or full DPS gear build would. I would still consider avoidance to be a bit worse for controlled survival until you hit a given mastery value but the increased DPS gains are not something you would want to miss. Plus avoidance has some delicious interaction with the non-DR avoidance from DRW and SS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[Edited for more clarity]

Hi people,

I'm posting to further enquire about Tyvi's and Raegwynn's tips towards enhancing your dps as a tank. I know it's redundant with many former posts but I'm trying to write it down in one post to try and clarify the big picture behing all of this : Do we really need tanking gear ... at all ?!

I've cleaned ToT HM and SoO Normal with full dps gear and that is quite the opposite of all the guides I have found. To me 10 man Blood Tanking revolves soundly around timings, death runes and Cooldowns and we can do that in dps gear all the way. And I think we should start to consider ourselves gearwise the same way that druids and monks do : convert dps gear in tank mecanics.

Sure a healthy amount of EHP and armor is required but once you get to the million health points, it's just not that good of a stat to chase. Dodge and Parry are NOT vital stats to stack. Endurance and Mastery emulates this almost the same. Pure Mastery stacking is redondant, it's just too high of a shield for too long of a time. And I mean this when I say : too good of a tank isn't a good thing when progressing. Most encounters have a short enrage or mecanics that rely on dps (Norushen for example).

As an example, my stat priorities are currently (550ish ilvl) :

Hit/Exp > Haste (cap = 20%) = Mastery (cap around 200%) > Crit (best DPS stats on blood DK) > Parry (I grab it on red gemslots when expertise caped)

Hit/Exp Cap : best DPS stats and quite easy to get with current gear.

Haste : I think we should see haste as "hardcapped" around 20%ish, even I am GCD locked after that and it doesn't provide much in term of dps and tanking after that. But it has been shown that perfect timing, no lag and perfect AMS soaking gives almost a GCD lock with a LOT less Haste.

Mastery : I stack it up to 200-225ish % even though you can do with a LOT less, but it's progress time and I like to max my shield in 2DS on most hard hiting encounters. I see it as a DPS stats in some way because if my shields are big enough I can spend more time on runestrikes/bloodboils and it gives more time for my healers to get me up so I can dps during that window.

Crit : It's the best stats for us once we reach confort zone. It affects all our dps skills and both our dots.

Parry : I get it naturally from red sockets and because Blood DK scales so badly with Attack Power I (personnally) rank it higher than strenght gem-wise. The new Riposte passive is a small benefit.

I find myself quite confortable (even Garrosh on P1 without usage of Stars with 2-3 adds on me all the time and the dude hits like a truck with a bad temper).

After months of thinking I came that many things made it non only possible but almost logical.

1°) Items ! First of all, the Legendary Tank Metagem ! I think it's too good. 20% reduction from all sources proc is insane and because the bosses are scaled upon players with same ilvl but no Legendary Questline items, this allows us to go without a LOT of tanking stats. Our T16 bonuses are actually excellent for once and dps oriented (That DRW is kick arse burst !). Strenght has a very good ratio with parry so we can even go with DPS trinkets without too much second thought. I mean hey even tank trinkets are awesome for DPS (I'm looking at you Thok's Tail Tip and Curse of Hubris). The Legendary Tanking Cloak is rubish in most cases (you can gimmick it but it's too much of a hassle and rarely worth it) while the Dps Cloak is a huge boon to dps (even with the proc nerf), it's almost 7% of my dps on ST and close to 13,5% on 3 targets and more and the stats are awesome !

2°) Bosses don't hit that hard and healers are really strong. Now I know that's more of a personal feeling and an external addition to the whole thing, but we need to see the whole metabalance. When you see how a Restoration Druid can keep a raid full health almost GCD free or the amount of single target healing a Paladin can keep all fight long on you while taking care of dispels and raid healing, it's something you need to keep in mind. I'm able to solo tank Thok on Normal without much issues in full dps gear and he is (after Garrosh) one of the more damaging tank hiter on this tier (in P1 of course).

3°) 10 man tank dps is key in most situations on Heroic Mode 10 man and being able to have a stable 200-230K dps on single target is a huge step towards a down. Almost so much that Guilds would rather give a harder time on their healers than ask for more defensive oriented gear on their tanks (mine does).

4°) Most of our dps doesn't require many Death Runes usage (If you don't go the Death Siphon route). With 20% Haste, i'm almost GCD locked with 80% HS/RS/BB procs/D&D and timely used DS, so i can use mainly Blood Runes and Runic Power and have 4 Death Runes sitting for a few seconds if I know something big is coming. And on top of that all our DPS CDs have flash modified stats according to ours so we can even use our Army and Ghoul as much as possible as a defensive/offensive cooldown that scales dynamicaly with our vengeance (that sometimes goes sky high, I have exemples of 350-400K vengeance for whole minutes).

5°) We have so many defensive CDs it's ridiculous. AMS timing has never been so rewarding, most encounters run a 2-3 minute gaps between burst phases (Malkorok is 2m50 but hey just ask for a Pain Sup/Sacrifice) so we always have something up, we have a 60% self heal on a 2 minute cd and IBF glyphed is OP on most fights.

I find it harder and harder to guide people towards gearing with tank pieces and it's not some emulation of Tankadins (even though I outdps ours ...). I think that you lose a tiny bit of tanking stats and gain a massive dps. It simply outweights everything else if you think about it in a raid-centric fashion.

Now I really don't consider myself as a professional tank/player. I play my DK a lot, true, and I have great faith in my healers but we play casually and care-free and still get things done that way. So if even a player like me can run with those stat weights I think most players that care to read this awesome site would be able to also !

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the DK Blood guide is misleading or have a bad approach, just that I think that DPS geared tanking is something that people start doing a lot and that needs refining.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This just in.

I knew Death Coil hit very hard at high levels of vengeance with the crazy Lichborne spamming, but with DRW RP cost and DK's generally awful runic power generation/rune cycling, it hadn't been worth using as a DPS skill. No longer.

With lots of vengeance the gobs and gobs of Runic Power from SoB avoidance procs (when tanking the boss and especially when tanking multiple mobs) and the Regenerative Magic Glyph, Blood Death Knights can use Death Coil for a not insignificant DPS increase.

Parses from Otou of Midnight Sanctuary, Protectors 25H and Juggernaut 25H.

Details for Otou - 08-10 22:58 - Lifeo's logs - World of Logs

Details for Otou - 08-10 22:58 - Lifeo's logs - World of Logs

[Edit]I ran two 400s single-target Patchwerk sims, one with the traditional rotation and one simply replacing Rune Strike with Death Coil. The sim set vengeance at an average of about 150k, and the damage of the RP dumps was very similar, about 130k RS average versus about 125k DC. The overall damage was about 5% lower (226k v. 215k), primarily because of the fewer rune cycles, but it's encouraging to see DC scaling so well with moderate vengeance. For multiple mobs, more vengeance, and more targeted AMS usage, it's not hard to see DC weaving providing added damage, especially in 25m and HC raiding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This just in.

I knew Death Coil hit very hard at high levels of vengeance with the crazy Lichborne spamming, but with DRW RP cost and DK's generally awful runic power generation/rune cycling, it hadn't been worth using as a DPS skill. No longer.

With lots of vengeance the gobs and gobs of Runic Power from SoB avoidance procs (when tanking the boss and especially when tanking multiple mobs) and the Regenerative Magic Glyph, Blood Death Knights can use Death Coil for a not insignificant DPS increase.

Parses from Otou of Midnight Sanctuary, Protectors 25H and Juggernaut 25H.

Details for Otou - 08-10 22:58 - Lifeo's logs - World of Logs

Details for Otou - 08-10 22:58 - Lifeo's logs - World of Logs

[Edit]I ran two 400s single-target Patchwerk sims, one with the traditional rotation and one simply replacing Rune Strike with Death Coil. The sim set vengeance at an average of about 150k, and the damage of the RP dumps was very similar, about 130k RS average versus about 125k DC. The overall damage was about 5% lower (226k v. 215k), primarily because of the fewer rune cycles, but it's encouraging to see DC scaling so well with moderate vengeance. For multiple mobs, more vengeance, and more targeted AMS usage, it's not hard to see DC weaving providing added damage, especially in 25m and HC raiding.

You're comparing Damage per Execute when the more relevant comparison is Damage per Runic Power. Death Coil costs 40 RP, whereas Rune Strike costs 30 RP. Using Death Coil is a survivability loss in all cases (due to fewer rune regeneration talent procs) and is less DPRP compared to Rune Strike except at massive AP levels (around 500k AP with a 561 weapon).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[Edit]I ran two 400s single-target Patchwerk sims, one with the traditional rotation and one simply replacing Rune Strike with Death Coil. The sim set vengeance at an average of about 150k, and the damage of the RP dumps was very similar, about 130k RS average versus about 125k DC. The overall damage was about 5% lower (226k v. 215k), primarily because of the fewer rune cycles, but it's encouraging to see DC scaling so well with moderate vengeance. For multiple mobs, more vengeance, and more targeted AMS usage, it's not hard to see DC weaving providing added damage, especially in 25m and HC raiding.

This isn't exactly new (I believe we had a discussion about DC vs RS DPET some time ago) and it was a good idea to weave in DCs for damage before Rune Strike got buffed. But anyway, I just wanted to post the formula for people to see at which AP levels DC does the same damage as Rune Strike on average:

((0.514*x + 1133) * 1.05 * 1.10) = (((((x/14) * 3.3 + 29475) * 2) * 0.68 * 1.04 * 1.15)

Gives us a breakpoint at 220k AP. Replace 29475 with whatever your average damage from your weapon is if you don't have a 561 wep.

Here it is as link:

((0.514*x + 1133) * 1.05 * 1.10) = (((((x/14) * 3.3 + 29475) * 2) * 0.68 * 1.04 * 1.15) - Wolfram|Alpha

Obviously, the better your weapon, the higher the break point will be. If you have DRW up and are swimming in RP, the value drops again (I don't have an exact formula for that, I just eyeball it) since DRW bugged out some time ago and is not copying our weapon damage but still copies spells 1:1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've heard that players still benefit from Parry haste. With the Riposte/Avoidance build becoming more popular, if one were to prioritize for Avoidance, is a balanced amount of Dodge/Parry according to the macro in the OP best? Or would stacking Parry to benefit from Parry Haste more be better?

The two examples I've seen:

Parry >> Dodge

Kaotikz @ Rexxar - Community - World of Warcraft

Parry = Dodge

Otou @ Stormrage - Community - World of Warcraft

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've heard that players still benefit from Parry haste. With the Riposte/Avoidance build becoming more popular, if one were to prioritize for Avoidance, is a balanced amount of Dodge/Parry according to the macro in the OP best? Or would stacking Parry to benefit from Parry Haste more be better?

The two examples I've seen:

Parry >> Dodge

Kaotikz @ Rexxar - Community - World of Warcraft

Parry = Dodge

Otou @ Stormrage - Community - World of Warcraft

In analysis like this you've also got to realize they're both tanking two different type of content so their gearing styles are going to be different. 10mans I've seen going more towards full parry, whereas 25s are doing a balance. Reason being balance overall would account for less damage taken overall. Just make sure that you're seeing what content people are raiding when comparing to what would be better for dps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a good point I hadn't thought about, but I think I worded my post wrong. I was mainly concerned strictly about DPS: would the additional scent of blood procs from a balanced build (assuming you now have a higher overall chance to avoid) cause a larger DPS increase than the gained melee swings/SoB procs from Parry Haste?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Based on the math done at Tankspot, one can see that every parry is another .24 of an auto-attack due to parry haste. Since both avoids and auto-attacks have a 100% chance to proc SoB assuming a 3.6 speed melee weapon because SoB is a PPM effect to combat people trying to DW tank with faster stuff, that means each point of parry is 1.24 times as good at generating SoB procs as a point in dodge, discounting the diminishing returns of course.

I believe that means that to get the ideal ratio between parry and dodge for SoB purposes you'd need to modify the usual macro or equation that would normally just show the ideal ratio between parry and dodge for maximum avoidance. Exactly how that's done is something I've shot Theck a PM about and will edit in to this post once I receive a reply unless someone else beats me to the punch.

Assuming the parry:dodge ratio is raised to account for more SoB procs, one might then want to compare the damage gained from more RP and auto-attacks with the higher parry versus the likely increased uptime of Riposte if one were to ignore SoB and simply focus on getting the most avoidance out of the least rating. That question isn't so easily answered with pure math and simulations, but my gut would say that going for more parry to get more SoB procs would probably be better if indeed there is a significant difference at all.

On another note, something I've noticed while browsing through WoL logs is they will tend to show Scent of Blood procs in the Buffs section will be lower than one would expect based on the RP gained in the Power Gains section. As best I can tell this is due to SoB actually having two buffs: One which boosts the next Death Strike, and one which grants the RP. The one that buffs DS is shown in the Buffs section, which means that if you're sitting on 5 stacks and you get another SoB proc then it won't show up there since you're capped but the RP gains will still show up normally.

Edit: So much for an easy way to figure out the best SoB setup. Theck mentioned that would require adding up the SoB procs from both auto-attacks and avoids and then taking the derivative of that sum to get the final ratio. Avoids aren't so hard since they're just based on the enemy's swing rate and your avoidance. Auto-attacks, however, are complicated by parry haste which is based on our parry and the boss's swing plus our own weapon's swing timer. At least boss parry haste is no longer a problem.

However, the interaction between parry and more hits is strong enough (each parry is an extra .24 of a swing after all) that the minimal avoidance lost by not using the ideal parry:dodge ratio is probably not going to be noticed compared to the extra SoB and attacks gained from more dodge. In short, parry>dodge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This isn't exactly new (I believe we had a discussion about DC vs RS DPET some time ago) and it was a good idea to weave in DCs for damage before Rune Strike got buffed. But anyway, I just wanted to post the formula for people to see at which AP levels DC does the same damage as Rune Strike on average:

((0.514*x + 1133) * 1.05 * 1.10) = (((((x/14) * 3.3 + 29475) * 2) * 0.68 * 1.04 * 1.15)

Gives us a breakpoint at 220k AP. Replace 29475 with whatever your average damage from your weapon is if you don't have a 561 wep.

Here it is as link:

((0.514*x + 1133) * 1.05 * 1.10) = (((((x/14) * 3.3 + 29475) * 2) * 0.68 * 1.04 * 1.15) - Wolfram|Alpha

Obviously, the better your weapon, the higher the break point will be. If you have DRW up and are swimming in RP, the value drops again (I don't have an exact formula for that, I just eyeball it) since DRW bugged out some time ago and is not copying our weapon damage but still copies spells 1:1.

Assuming that I understood you correctly, and DRW give DC full benefit, while RS gets nothing from weapon damage, the new formula should be:

((0.514*x + 1133) * 1.05 * 1.10) * 2 = (((((x/14) * 3.3 + 29475 * 0.5) * 2) * 0.68 * 1.04 * 1.15) * 2 - Wolfram|Alpha

Which give a breakpoint at 108k AP. That should put it as the optimal use of RP when tanking multiple mobs, as you often cannot spent it fast enough, and you would pretty much always have more then 108k AP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it really better to stack haste? I have seen a lot of blood dk's with nothing but haste gems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Adding on to my previous question about PL, could anyone tell me is it a DPS increase to use the Glyph Of Outbreak in conjunction with PL? Or is it not worth the GCD of using PL and Outbreak every 30 seconds?

Edited by Furi0n

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Full haste gearing is not a good idea if you aim to do max DPS. With Scent of Blood, AMS soaking and a pretty low RP cost on Rune Strike the amount of haste we need to be GCD capped is pretty small (there are moments I wish Death Coil was better damage than Rune Strike at all AP levels just so I could bleed off the excess RP). With that in mind, crit gemming is better for DPS, especially for AoE where your diseases are allowed to tick for a while since haste does nothing there.

(Personally, I also consider parry and dodge to be superior to haste because I just have too much of it and can't get rid of it.)

 

As for why people gem haste, my suspicion is that they are doing it for combination of survival/DPS. It's neither the best for either survival or DPS but it is a good middle ground I suppose.

 

Same applies to PL: Generally no GCDs free so I don't see the need to spec it but if I had to use it, I would probably glyph Outbreak due to how easy it is get to the point where RP is really nothing you need to worry about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe that using the cleave trinket on fights where there are multiple mobs is definitely an increase (Immerseus/Protectors). I don't see a lot of people using it so I thought I'd add it in here. 

 

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3apenjiyhfjw6ytm/details/16/?s=0&e=358

Here does 11.5% of my damage which is definitely a huge increase. 

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t0b8c675n2wn9wgr/details/4/?s=9488&e=9887

Here 11.4%

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5g25bhn122d3qw7b/details/30/?s=374&e=1080

Here 5.8%

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-sopkivp2l7k00h4h/details/25/?s=2502&e=3023

And here 4.2%

 

Even in the smallest instance it is still a pretty decent dps increase. Of course you lose survivability, but at higher gear levels you can definitely drop whatever trinket you were using for these earlier fights. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assuming that I understood you correctly, and DRW give DC full benefit, while RS gets nothing from weapon damage, the new formula should be:

((0.514*x + 1133) * 1.05 * 1.10) * 2 = (((((x/14) * 3.3 + 29475 * 0.5) * 2) * 0.68 * 1.04 * 1.15) * 2 - Wolfram|Alpha

Which give a breakpoint at 108k AP. That should put it as the optimal use of RP when tanking multiple mobs, as you often cannot spent it fast enough, and you would pretty much always have more then 108k AP.

 

DRW isn't *quite* that terrible. Just almost that terrible.

 

Farther back in the topic there was some intrigue in the details. If you care to see the discussion, it starts here and mostly remains on that same page.

 

Basically what was determined is that the Rune Weapon--by "not copying our weapon damage"--rejects your equipped weapon's damage and substitutes its own. If you have a good weapon (read: any weapon better than a Cataclysm leveling green) then the Rune Weapon's damage will be lower than yours. If you have an ilvl 15 vendor white then the Rune Weapon will actually outdamage you.

 

Through testing of my own at the time I recall coming up with the phrase "Cataclysm leveling green" to describe it, so the weapon damage it works with should be roughly 2500. Sorry, logs from the time have expired and so has my sub, so I can't go check. :ph34r:

For clarity, its weapon damage does increase with our AP, exactly as weapon damage ought to.

 

Not to nitpick, just to explain. The difference is only 9k AP for higher DPE on DC than RS.

Edited by KiqJaq

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just getting into DK tanking. I've been reading, trying to see which stats I should prioritize. I've looked on Icyveins primarily, and running my character through AskMrRobot. I'll mainly be tanking 10 man normal. I've been looking at Top Ranking Blood DK's that tank 10 man, and their gearing strategies vary, which adds to the confusion. Some are pure parry gemmed, some are mostly mastery. I'm just wanting to know, what is the best gearing strategy for a beginner DK tank? Running my character with the Mastery build on AMR tells me to drop my Hit/expertise rating do around 1.34%, which just doesn't sit right with me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.