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Rosin

[Priests 5.0.4] I Get Misty

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Since there is no topic for shadow, I'll post this here.

I've been experimenting with divine insight, and quite liked the twist it adds to our "rotation". However, it currently seems to be quite bugged.

I noticed that if I get a proc when I'm already casting MB, the proc is consumed but seems to instantly proc again, allowing me to cast another MB. This makes sense, though there is a slight delay before it happens.

An actual problem is that sometimes, I get a proc (and MB button is highlighted), but the cooldown is not reset. It happens more often at high haste, such as with Alysrazor buff (where it happens pretty much all the time, making the talent next to worthless). Did anyone else notice this, and is there anything that can be done to prevent it?

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I open this subject because i am really confused about my result and would have a confirmation from you if i am wrong or right.

Objectif of calculation was, at the begginning, to simply calculate the %haste needed to gain additionnal cast of PoH when using Spririt Shell.

It is simple (for example 100%-7/6 = 16.67% haste to win 1 cast of PoH for 15sec) but i wanted to find a standard formula to use it on every repetitive event like Fiend, MindBender (if they follow haste effect), Hymn of hope, renew, etc... from others classes....

Formula i have reached is :

Number of times of event = ENT [ 1 + (Time effect - delay)/Time between event ]

where

Time between event = base Time between event / (1+%Haste)

delay = base delay / (1+%Haste)

==> Number of times of event = ENT [ (base Time between event - base delay)/base Time between event + (1+%haste)* base number of time of event ]

With :

base number of time of event = Time effect / base Time between event

base delay = can be 0 if the first tic is immediate after the cast (ex :Mindbender), GCDu (if it is 1GCDu =1,5sec after the cast), time casting (if it is a heal which as to be cast (ex : PoH for SS claculation)

Means also that :

Additional times of event = ENT [ (base Time between event - base delay)/base Time between event + %haste* base number of time of event ]

NOW, the problem i have ;

For exemple for Renew :

Time effect = 12 sec

Delay = gcd (because the first tic is done 1 gcd after the cast) = gcdu / (1+%haste) = 1,5* /(1+%haste)

Time between event = Base time betwwen event / (1+%haste) = 3 / (1+%haste)

So, we arrived on the well known formula of Renew which is number of TIC = ENT [0,5 + 4*(1+%haste) ]

or also the well known formula "Number of additional TiC = ENT ( 0,5 + Base Number of Tic *%haste)

Then, based on this last formula "ENT ( 0,5 + Base Number of Tic *%haste)" which defines the number of additionnal tics, i see everywhere, more or less, the following table which define breakdowns for haste :

3 Base Tics : 16.67% 50.00% 83.33%

4 Base Tics : 12.50% 37.50% 62.50% 87,50%

5 Base Tics : 10.00% 30.00% 50.00% 70.00% 90.00%

6 Base Tics : 08.34% 25.00% 41.67% 58.33% 75.00% 91.66%

7 Base Tics : 07.14% 21.43% 35.72% 50.00% 64.29% 78.57% 92.86%

etc...

That means (and i take this data until this date) for Hymn of hope which is a 4 Tics base class, that the additional tic will be reach at 12,5% of haste like the renew.

BUT When using the standard formula i gave ,the result is different because the formula used is :

Additional times of event = ENT [ (base Time between event - base delay)/base Time between event + %haste* base number of time of event ]

Means that for Hymn of Hope, additional tic is reached for 18,75% Haste instead of 12.5% :

base Time between event = 2 sec

base delay = 1 GCDu = 1.5 sec. (first tic is given after 1 GCD)

base number of time of event = 12/3 = 4

1 = ENT [ (2-1.5)/2 + 4*%haste ] ==> %haste = 0.75 / 4 = 18.75%

(except if the base delay is not 1 GCDu but 1 sec ==> in this cas, we have 12,5%)

My Conclusion is that it is wrong to use this table and "ENT ( 0,5 + Base Number of Tic *%haste)" is true only if the "base delay" is half of the "base Time between event".

And for additionnal cast of PoH under SS, i have my result now with the généric formula which matchs to the simple calculation "%haste needed for PoH under SS = 100% - [Number of cast per 15sec / Base number of cast per 15sec]" :

6 casts 2.5 Sec base for 15sec of SS stack period

Generic formula gives same result : 16.67% 33.33% 50.00% 66.67% 83.33% 100.00% when i take :

"Additional times of event = ENT [ (base Time between event - base delay)/base Time between event + %haste* base number of time of event ]"

Sorry, for this long explanation and thank you for your feedback !

(did i miss something ?)

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Blizzard has changed channeled spells specifically. With 33% haste I still get 4 ticks and no more and the total channel time is 6s.

With 33% haste I also have mind sear finish channeling in 3.75 seconds and getting 5 ticks (one every 0.75s).

Channelled spells no longer get extra ticks. I don't think this is a big. Its probably a new design. Maybe blizzard does not want the HPM of channeled spells to increase with haste.

Mindbender and shadowfiend no longer benefit from haste either.

They definately did benefit from haste until just after we got the new spirit shell. I actually tested it, because I wanted to be sure about the formula.

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Thank.

I made a complete mistake and i just see IG that hymn of hope did not depend on haste no more.

For Mindbender and fiend , it is very stange because i have noticed the same thing as you about haste which has no impact (done after recording the log or heard the attack) BUT a lot of people told me that they have seen and verify IG (5.05 cata) that haste (on equipement) scales on pets.

depending on haste on equipement and haste proc with trinket, they have confirmed to see mindbender returns 14 to 15 tics.

I do not understand since i do not find same result but it is strange because people who has told me that are serious player.

I think , i have also made a mistake for the generic formula i gave even for Renew because "base delay" for renew is 3sec instead of GCD.

and my formula does not match real result.

Could you check where i am wrong to apply :

==> Number of times of event = ENT [ (base Time between event - base delay)/base Time between event + (1+%haste)* base number of time of event ]

With :

base number of time of event = Time effect / base Time between event

base delay = can be 0 if the first tic is immediate after the cast (ex :Mindbender), GCDu (if it is 1GCDu =1,5sec after the cast), time casting (if it is a heal which as to be cast (ex : PoH for SS claculation)

Means also that :

Additional times of event = ENT [ (base Time between event - base delay)/base Time between event + %haste* base number of time of event ]

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Dear Havoc12

Juste about my comment about pets who can integrate haste , i made a file with the following logs :

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B3Db4qt1FcVeQTVOdHk0UHVoSUU

It is easy to find when pet return mana , it is called in french "sangsue de mana" :

to summarize the conditions ;

Try N°1 : with haste 11.28% (1444 score) ==> 11 Tics

Try N°2 : with haste 14.85% (1902 score) ==> 12 Tics

Try N°3 : with haste 14.85% (1902 score) ==> 11 Tics

i find same behavoir on shadowfiend.

and i think , i have noticed that immediate first tic when cast is done is not always true.

It seems that tic calculation is not accurate but it exists !

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When I tested it just after we got the new spirit shell, fiend scaled with haste. After a certain point blizzard changed it.

Haste definitely no longer benefits fiend. However external buffs do apply to the fiend. So totems increasing attack speed and heroism or pet haste buffs definitely affect fiend attack speed and hence they may give a better return if everything lines up properly.

I tried it dozens of times and its definately 11 attacks. The fiend is ready to attack the instant its summoned and unless the opportunity is denied it does.

===================================================================================

On a sidenote, PoH has been nerfed recently. It now no longer applies the base 30% aegis to crits. Crits only apply 30% of a crit as aegis and no other aegis...

The PoH now has a crit multiplier of exactly two, so the formula is now

base*(1+0.3*(1+mastery))*(1+crit)

This further reduces the value of keepinga aegis alive.

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I tried it dozens of times and its definately 11 attacks. The fiend is ready to attack the instant its summoned and unless the opportunity is denied it does.

I have tried also during several hours and main results are 11 attacks.

But you cannot close your eyes about the log i have linked.(alone, without buff on a dummy low level)

Try N°2 at 0H26 ==> 12 tics !

and we can reproduce it at 14 or 15 tics with haste above 40% and 50% (with haste proc trinket)

I have dont link the video i have done with Fraps also during these log, but when you wotch it frame by frame, you can verify that mana jumps are conform with log recording.

There is something unclear or unstable about attack of pet et mana return.

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I cant access the log I don't have a google account.

to verify what you said I did an experiment, I proced by DS haste trinket, used PI and PWS which boosted by haste to 95%. Mindbender gave me back 14 attacks. I wonder if blizzard fixed the haste scaling!

[edit] ~Yes they did!! Mindbender now scales with haste. I used PWS and I got 12 attacks. So mindbender now scales with haste! I will investigate the scaling [/edit]

At 16% haste I get 12 attacks.

At 33% haste I still get 12 attacks. (PWS)

At 39% haste I still get 12 attacks. (Power Infusion)

at 60.1% haste I get 14 attacks (haste trinket)

Thus mindbender now scales only with haste rating, it does not scale with any buffs that increase spellcasting speed or spell haste. Only effects which increase both spellcasting and melee attack speed affect mindbender. So haste rating on gear, bloodlust, the attack speed totem etc, all increase mindbender attacks, but buffs, which increase spellcasting speed, but not melee attack speed have no effect.

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Thus mindbender now scales only with haste rating, it does not scale with any buffs that increase spellcasting speed or spell haste. Only effects which increase both spellcasting and melee attack speed affect mindbender. So haste rating on gear, bloodlust, the attack speed totem etc, all increase mindbender attacks, but buffs, which increase spellcasting speed, but not melee attack speed have no effect.

i agree. It is the desired design.

(i forget to say that PI, PWS etc.. has no effect. Only haste rating on equipement or by trinket.

Scaling is +1 tic per 10% haste. (with exclusion of what we have told about pi ,....

BUT, it is not always reproducable. I did not make a statistic but on my trys, i would say that it is verify at 20%-30% only.

I do not know and understand the cause.

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I tried it quite a bit looking at the log and here is what I found. I think that when the mindbender casts shadowcrawl that attack is completely unhasted.

the log looks like this (with 60% haste):

...:44 I cast mindbender

...:44 attack1

...:44 mindbender casts shadowcrawl

...:46 attack2

...:47 attack3

...:48 attack4

...:49 attack5

...:50 attack6

...:50 mindbender casts shadowcrawl

...:51 attack7

...:52 attack8

...:53 attack9

...:54 attack10

...:55 attack11

...:56 attack12

...:57 shadowcrawl

...:57 attack13

...:58 attack14

...:59 attack15

I expect 1 attack every 0.9375seconds, but I get 15 attacks and 3 shadowcrals in 15 seconds. However if each shadowcrawl attack is unhasted this is what I expect:


attack time  attack	total time (sec)

(sec)

	       1	

1.5	       2              1.5

0.9375	       3              2.4375

0.9375	       4	      3.375

0.9375	       5	      4.3125

0.9375	       6	      5.25

1.5	       7	      6.75

0.9375	       8	      7.6875

0.9375	       9	      8.625

0.9375	       10	      9.5625

0.9375	       11	      10.5

0.9375	       12	      11.4375

1.5	       13	      12.9375

0.9375	       14	      13.875

0.9375	       15	      14.8125

Which matches perfectly with what I see on the log.

If I turn shadowcrawl off as soon as the mindbender is summoned I get 16 attacks.

So basically it looks like shadowcral attacks are the reason why haste does not quite work the way we expect with mindbender.

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Very interresting !

i understand now, why some gcd are lost.

Nevertheless, Shadowcrawl is instant but use 1 gcd. that means that attack is delayed of 2 gcd from the previous one. So, it is not 1.5sec normally. don't you think ?

edit : hum... automatic melee attacks is not folowed the gcd, i think...

Just 2 confirmations :

- With Haste at 60%, attacks is every 0.9375seconds means that 17 attacks are possible in 15 sec because of instant attack as soon as the pet is casted.

If we have only 16 times of mana return that means that the last one is lost because the pet has disapeared before the proc of mana return ?

if yes, the haste breakdown must be estimated with the delay existing between the attack and the tic of mana return.

- To optimize the number of tic, it is necessary to remove shadowcrawl attacks.

i have not tested yet but do you think it is possible to disable this attack when we cast the pet ?

it is perhaps possible to remove it by a macro done with the cast of the pet (but maybe necessary to activate the macro 2 times)

edit : maybe, it is necessary to post a bug report if it is not possible to cancel the shadowcrawl ?

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I can't reproduce the "shadowcrawl slows down the swing timer" phenomenon. I am seeing that there is a delay between the swing and the mana gain, and I don't seem to get the mana from the last swing, either (consistently at my gear level, need to try to see if there are breakpoints for this).

mindbender experimentation - Pastebin.com

Most runs were done with a 1.23 sec gcd (the ones where I had darkness are indistinguishable from the ones where I didn't), except for the second to last run, which also had heroism cast partway, and the last run, where I had no gear on. I'll do more experimenting when I get a chance. Either Blizzard is messing with us, or there's something going on that we're missing, I think.

Edit: I ran a bunch of different haste levels through. Basically at every level except 904 haste rating, I received 1 more melee swing than mana returns. I'm not entirely sure why.

[TABLE]Haste NumSwings NumMana

2776 13 12

2613 13 12

2520 13 12

2410 13 12

2247 12 11

2154 12 11

2047 12 11

1933 12 11

1769 12 11

1655 12 11

1564 12 11

1415 12 11

1267 11 11

1160 11 10

1067 11 10

904 11 11

715 11 10

622 11 10

445 11 10

[/TABLE]

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yes.

I take back the 3 examples i have linked and made calculation of time betwwen swing, mana regen.

I do not notice also any influence of shadowcrawl.

Roughly, i find :

Time between swing attacks ~ gcd

Time between mana regen instable (can be from 1.1sec to 1.6 sec , not in relation with the cast of shadowcrawl)

Time between swing attacks and Mana regen from 0.8sec to 1.2sec

Time of the last tic of mana regen can be more than 15sec. after the cast of pet (i see 15.36 sec) but never above.

If the last swing attack is more than 14.6 sec, I lost tic of mana regen.

So, it seems to be impossible to do exact estimation of the number of tic with a given level of haste....

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As before, there's not much of a "rotation" but the usual priorities:

DPx3 > MB > SW: D (sub 20%) > SF/MBen > FDCL > SW:P > VT > MF

Not everyone has FDCL of course, though personally I find it one of the most fun things about the new system. It really adds additional depth and skill to a previously quite repetitive routine. Also note that you MF a lot less than before, and most likely clip it frequently.

So far the most challenging thing for me has been placing FDCL procs properly. There is a lot of things to consider like imminent buff-procs, when MB comes off CD, chance of wasted stacks etc. It gets especially hectic in a multi-dot scenario, but that makes it only more fun! :) For now I'm running with ToF over DI, but I'm not sure how good that is. That would be even more procs then!

Been wondering, with how good shadow orbs now, is the SW:D glyph possibly worthwhile (SW:D over 20% health, but do 1 quarter damage and eat some backlash... basically shit damage but orb generation.)

My gut instinct says no, leave that for pvp or other fringe situations where you want to generate orbs as fast as possible for a burst scenario, but that it's not good

I'm also really liking FDCL, especially while leveling - it makes me a lot less annoyed about the very common scenario where you're dotting up 2-3 targets at once, but mind sear kinda sucking for aoe.

I idly wonder though, if taking mindbender for DPS might be better or similar dps with a less complex rotation on a single target? And didn't they buff SW:Insanity? That one looks cool too...

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You should probably read the glyph again. Glyphed SW: Death does *not* generate *any* Orbs. It would definitely be in our rotation otherwise, but that way, it's not. The glyph is pretty much useless for PvE.

So far FDCL has been consistently simming as the highest DPS talent. As for how wide the margins are, that is up for debate. More data will be forthcoming as proper, live raiding goes underway.

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I posted this on the blizzard forum. It is possible that it was fixed. I replicated many times when I tried it, so I know it was correct. You should all be using a haste tirnket to get your haste to a very high level and see how many attacks you get. Try to hit the same value as I did.

It is possible that one attack is lost now due to lag if the delay between the swing and the mana leech after the last attack is too long. The leech is applied on the shadowfiend, so if the shadowfiend expires before the leech is applied, I think it is highly likely that the script will fail to run.

Before this we were not missing one attack. We were missing up to 4 attacks, if you see my original example and I repeatedly got more attacks when I removed shadowcrawl.

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Hi

i havent noticed any mentioned on it here and havent found much on it but a priest in my raid group has been running into problems with his guardian spirit both now in mv and dating back to ds. Its seems like the "cheat death" part of guardian spirit is not working. And i have checked it out in the combat log when he has cast uardian spirit on me (im tanking) and i get the cast on me and get the killing blow on me where the guardian should kick in and not kill me and heal me but that part doesnt seem to work. Anyone else here been running into some problems with guardian spirit ?

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There are two cases I've seen where guardian spirit fails to save someone. Firstly, the race condition, when I cast it *just* before the killing blow, it goes on cooldown, but the target dies anyway (Solution: cast earlier). Secondly, when the killing blow is too large (since patch 4.0.6, Guardian Spirit has had a cap on the amount of damage it will absorb (of 200% of the target's max health), so a single hit bigger than that will still kill a target with GS on them). If you're trying to use Guardian Spirit to ignore some fight mechanics, you may have to layer on other cooldowns to reduce the big hit (or just change your strategy).

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Thank you for a quick response.

But my feeling all along has been the former o your suggestions that the cast is just a little too late and possible the servers read the cast sequence in just a little bit different order then they are cast in, so eventhough the gs is cast before the real kiling blow then the killing blow maybe is read before the gs on the one taking the hit and therefor it might not get properly activated.

So the solution is most likely just to get the cast in earlier, as rarely if ever i or the other tank is taking a hit in excess of 200% of max health.

Again thank you and i will forward this to my, quite frustrated by the failure of his gs, priest healer.

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I'm wondering what talentchoices other people maken on the different fights. Espacially the level 90 talents. I am referring to people that play holy.

In the first tier I don't believe their is much use of these talents except for Void tendrils during Elegon.

In the second tier however their is the choice of using Body and Soul and Angelic feather. I myself am more fond of Body and Soul. I don't need to put down feathers and have people walk through them. With B&S I can just instantly give someone a boost. It does however requires mana to give people that boost.

The third tier starts getting interesting. FDCL has been a favorite of mine during cataclysm, but it has little use on big AoE fights, since it doesn't proc on our AoE abilities. Mindbender is my more preferred talentchoice, since it has only a 1 min CD. The 0,7% of Solace really isn't worth it in my opinion. That's only 2100 mana. It can be argued that you also regain mana since you are not casting. But I can also simply not cast. I will still regain that mana regardless.

In the fourth tier I'm still torn between Desperate Prayer and Angelic Bulwark. Allthough AB requires no effort on my part, it can proc on moments you really don't need the shield. A shield however mitgates the damage and is instantly up. With desperate prayer you only regain health and you will still need to press the heal. With DP I have the luxury of using it whenever I want. I'm leaning towards AB at the moment for all the fights.

In the fifth tier I have found twist of fate being a great addition during Garajal, Kings and Elegon, since there are several moments where you can proc that talent due to several bosses or adds during that fight. On Stoneguard and Feng I lean more towards Power Infusion. PI gives the boost that is handy on the moments it is needed.

The final tier is the tier I switch around most, which I'm sure most of the raiders do.

  • On Stoneguard I prefer Halo, since most people are spread anyways over about the range halo is most effective.

  • On Feng I usually go with Divine star. Ranged and melee should be away from eachother about the range of DS. It has a short CD and can help out during the entire fight when there are low damage phases.

  • On Gara'jal I tend to use DS also. Everyone is always stacked up. I have not tested using halo on this fight. Arguably if you just get yourself in the perfect position you should get enourmous heals, but I prefer to stand still most of the fight.

  • On spirit kings I find DS nice to have during the Maddening shout. During the way forward it damages and on its way back it heals. Halo however has some decent use as well because of the way the fight works. The spread fases are most of the time the more damaging fases. The fight is also a very mobile fight so during stack fases it's not hard to get some distance between you and your raid for perfect halo usage.

  • On Elegon I find Cascade to be most effective because you can reach out of range players on the other side of the platform. I don't see DS having any kind of use. Halo just can't keep up with cascade.

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I just switched to Holy with the start of MoP raiding, was practically Disc since Ulduar, and I'm quite liking it.

As you mentioned the first tier isn't all that important, I mostly have Tendrils for some occasional uses like Emperors Rage and the likes.

I also favor Body and Soul, probably because I always loved that aspect the most when healing some encounters as Holy, but there might be some uses where a tank is kiting on a preplanned route, so I see Angelic Feathers still having some usefulness.

On tier three I nearly always have Mindbender, because of two facts. It is a significant dps increase when used on cooldown (or close to anyways) and the mana income is smoother than with a normal shadowfiend but still feels less maintenancey than PW:Solace.

AB is my clear winner, mainly because I'm bad in those regards and forget to use healthstones and DP all the time but you are quite right that AB sometimes proccs when its not needed, some non lethal aoe which takes the raid low but wont kill it if done correctly and where you have "ages" to bring the raid back up...

Regarding tier 6 I should probably try to vary a bit more, seeing as you can procc ToF with some adds or on those non lethal aoes quite easily and PI yields very good on demand burst for something like Elegon HC final phase (even though it worked without). But I love DI as holy so much because the ProM can be used as a follow up after some large AoE and doesn't need constant ticking damage or anything to trigger and may even be used as a decent single target heal on a tank if there's a melee (or pet) nearby from whom it can bounce back and forth.

Lvl 90 Talents:

Stone Guards (HC): Cascade is my favorite here, especially when people are running around reactivating tiles.

Feng (HC): As you mentioned DS because we are grouped up nearly the whole fight or at least when the incoming dmg is high.

Gara: I wasn't in for our progress, haven't killed him so far.

Kings: For our few heroic attempts I found DS quite nice for Qiang but I guess Halo or Cascade should be better overall since after Qiang you'll be mostly spread out.

Elegon (HC): Cascade is a godsend on this encounter, especially for the second phase, picks up very many people on both sides every 2nd charge phase for very little mana, not quite as effective for the final phase but that does not last really long anyways.

Will: Cascade and Halo should both proof very good here depending on raid composition and tactic.

Zor'lok: I found Cascade really useful for the Force and Verve phases, DS hits too few targets and Halo may not hit everyone.

Ta'yak: passed

Garalon: passed

Mel'jarak: Nearly killed him yesterday and I think Cascade again was the most useful for Raining Blades. Extra care is needed if you pick Halo/DS to not accidentally break a CC.

Overall I feel that Cascade for spread out and DS for grouped up scenarios are the most useful, since Cascade has the advantage over Halo in regards to finding its targets and not needing very careful positioning/timing to be effective.

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First tier has no real use in raiding. I have void tendrils, but only use them when doing daily quests. (Before void shift was fixed to only work on players, they made great VS targets, but that doesn't work any more)

Second tier, I usually use feathers. They take some getting used to, but as holy I don't use shields, so even though it's easier to cast a shield on someone than to place a feather for them, it would cost mana that I usually don't have to spare. Feathers are free. Also, I can use 4 in a row (and then 1 per 10s), while B&S is 1 per 15s. The only fight I change this for is stone guards - because of the constant snare, phantasm works better for getting myself in to my chain buddy.

My choice for tier 3 depends on my healing role. If I'm assigned to tanks, I'll take FDCL; if not, mindbender (I've tried solace, but I'm not a fan).

I always use desperate prayer from tier 4. Angelic bulwark doesn't require a keypress, but also doesn't save you from being 1shot from 40%.

Tier 5, I usually take Twist of Fate. In addition to procs from healing people who are low on health, I try to keep my target set to whatever mob will be the next to die, and if I have 7800 mana and a GCD to spare when my power word: death button lights up, pushing it will boost my healing for 10s as well as helping dps. Divine Insight is also good, and I'll have to give it another try some time, but last time I used it I found it too easy to burn my mana too fast. Even though PoM is one of our most efficient heals, it's still not cheap on mana - when things get hectic and I'm spamming PoH as fast as I can, the extra healing from ToF is free, while divine insight means I run oom faster. When I go disc, I switch to Power Infusion (because ToF doesn't affect absorbs, but PI + spirit shell is a combo made in heaven).

Because I raid 25man, cascade is my go-to choice for the 6th tier. It works when the raid is spread out, or when we have a melee group and a ranged group; it lines up nicely with most boss abilities; and it doesn't do any damage (the number of times someone's halo wiped us on spirit kings...). The only time I change it is when our strategy calls for the whole raid to be stacked up together, as this is when cascade is weakest. Then, if I can run out (using either body & soul or feathers) and halo, I do that; otherwise I use the star.

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