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Nooska

[MoP] Beastmastery 5.2

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I would suggest macroing Rabid with LR.

As for opening, I am not quite ready to make a final determination on what to suggest, but I would currently say something on the order of;

SrS, BW, KC, LR, GT, Readiness, KC, LR, GT, AS, AS, CoS, BW, KC (etc).

I would pop SrS first to get it up and running, and I would add in that CoS before the second BW to extend SrS.

As to popping RF in there for the increased focus regen, that does sound like a good idea, but I'll remain neutral on it for now, untill I have some time to test it specifically - it would make sens in regards to keeping up SrS with a shorter CoS though, so another win there (remember to add in Glaive Toss or Powershot, currently Glaive Toss) before and after the Readiness.

I´m pretty sure you just forgot it, but you should also pop Dire Beast just after LR, then Readiness, and DB again, you can have the two dire beasts at the same time. You need at least 4 or maybe 5 instant shots between each LR to make sure you cast the second when the pet has finished the first one, as it takes 4-5 secs for the 9 hits.

On live I´m doing almost exactly what you suggested: SrS, BW+RF+PVP trinket, KC, LR, DB, Readiness, KC, DB, LR, AS, AS(At this point BW is just about to drop, so I may overlap it for about 0.5 sec), BW, KC and then pop the second RF asap im out of focus after some more ASs+KC. I don´t really enjoy refreshing SrS during this phase, so I would just cast it again just before popping the second RF over refreshing it earlier with CoS. It is a small DPS loss (not even closely noticeable). That´s what I got after several hours of testing, trying to find out the best opening secuence. That leads to crazy burst both on Raid and PVP, being able to pull around 90-100k DPS for the first 20 seconds of fight, or either killing someone with full resil gear without even the need of shooting at him.

Don´t think that the opening secuence would change a lot at 90, just adding GT for another 2 GCDs.

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Corect, I forgot about DB, as I've been using TotH extensively on the beta (toth is better for questing), and yes, DB should be popped in there - will remember to make a specific mention of having 2xDB up via readines when I get to the talents - hopefully later this week will see some time to extend whats currently up.

Adding DB (x2) should also remove the need/want for an RF in there for cous reasons - that just means we may want to delay readiness till after an RF sequence after the first BW (which also builds up focus, and helps not grabbing aggro on non hit-capped tanks for example) - will have to do some more analysis of that though.

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Wouldn't it be better to split the two BW apart? This way you can a) spend the time in between them refreshing SrS with CS, b) have 5 KC in BW range instead of 3.

Then you have a) The SrS up from start without reapplying it, which you say is a (small) DPS gain, b) more abilities that hit harder than AS in BW range.

Surely, if you want to burst than back to back BW is of course better, but on long term this should improve your DPS.

In this sequence you can simply put the first LR in BW one, and the second LR in BW two. Delaying a 90 seconds long ability by 5 seconds won't usually redyce the amount you can squeeze in in a fight

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Nevermind you can still get the 5 KCs in there delaying BW 5 sec, and still get the second LR and DB in the first BW. You just need to cast the first DB before BW, the beast will update its damage 1-2 secs after you pop BW. Right after the third KC you can use CoS and refresh the sting if you want to

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re: Agi>hit==exp (to cap)>>mastery>crit>>haste

I have confirmed that when I reforge for mastery over crit, I lose 10% of my DPS and overall damage.

Sure, my pet does 5% more damage. However, if I reforge for crit over mastery, it gives me 10% more DPS and damage using level 85 blood elf hunter (beastmastery)

Has anyone else had this same experience?

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When you're saying ( GT ) What exactly does that mean?! Can't figure it out for the life of me, please help.. Cheers

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When you're saying ( GT ) What exactly does that mean?! Can't figure it out for the life of me, please help.. Cheers

GT refers to one of the lvl90 hunter talents, Glaive Toss. Currently it sims the highest benefits and thus will likely be chosen once MoP and the new raid content is released. (of course these things can always change)

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How do others handle LR?

Personally, I use 2x LR in the opener. I tried leaving them out but that greatly reduces the burst potential (8K difference IIRC).

This would suggest that spending a GCD on Lynx Rush during BW as opposed to an AS is a big gain and therefore LR should be stacked with BW as much as posisble without lowering the amount of LR in total.

In a fight that lasts less than ~3:12 minutes, which means there will be room for 3x LR (one in both BW in the opener, one after the CD has ended mid-fight), it would therefore be beneficial to delay LR by 30 seconds after it comes off CD to spend it during the next BW

This is a burning question for me. On longer fights is it better to use LR, stacking it with BW or to just use it every time it's up.

Napkin math ahead.

200%x9x1.2 = 2160% for a Bestial Wrath modified Lynx Rush

200%x9 = 1800% standard Lynx Rush

Saving LR for every BW gives you 6 total for a 6m18s = 12,960%

If you don't save LR for use with BW then over the same period gives 4 x(LR+BW) + 3x(LR) = 14,040% (note I delayed the use the final 2 LR by 6s to use BW with them).

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This is a burning question for me. On longer fights is it better to use LR, stacking it with BW or to just use it every time it's up.

Napkin math ahead.

200%x9x1.2 = 2160% for a Bestial Wrath modified Lynx Rush

200%x9 = 1800% standard Lynx Rush

Saving LR for every BW gives you 6 total for a 6m18s = 12,960%

If you don't save LR for use with BW then over the same period gives 4 x(LR+BW) + 3x(LR) = 14,040% (note I delayed the use the final 2 LR by 6s to use BW with them).

Same rule as usual applies there, if by waiting to line it up with BW makes you lose one use of Lynx Rush then it's not worth waiting. If you know that you have time for only one Lynx Rush till boss dies and you can line it up with BW it's gain. Two Lynx Rush out of BW > One Lynx Rush with BW.

Also if you have Rabid macroed with Lynx Rush you don't only delay Lynx Rush but Rabid as well.

For the opener you were discussing, dont forget that on pulls we also use a pot so maybe Rapid Fire is not of best use with all cooldowns stacking at start till we use Readiness but early use means we get to use 2 BW within the pot timer.

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Same rule as usual applies there, if by waiting to line it up with BW makes you lose one use of Lynx Rush then it's not worth waiting. If you know that you have time for only one Lynx Rush till boss dies and you can line it up with BW it's gain. Two Lynx Rush out of BW > One Lynx Rush with BW.

Also if you have Rabid macroed with Lynx Rush you don't only delay Lynx Rush but Rabid as well.

For the opener you were discussing, dont forget that on pulls we also use a pot so maybe Rapid Fire is not of best use with all cooldowns stacking at start till we use Readiness but early use means we get to use 2 BW within the pot timer.

Good point, something else to consider, is that generally Rapid Fire for BM is not a very good dps cooldown.

However, combined with pot+BW increases pet focus regeneration

1. Increasing hunter focus regeneration increases pet energy regeneration.

2.More autoshots means more potential critical strikes with autoshot while agility bonus from pot is active. This increases pet focus regeneration.

3. More pet focus means higher damaged pet Basic Attacks which is further increased while BW is active.

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Good point, something else to consider, is that generally Rapid Fire for BM is not a very good dps cooldown.

Concretely, we can run that in simc. The invocation below suppresses rapid fire and changes readiness not to wait for it. I checked that the resulting html had the right number of readiness and rapid fires.


> simc ptr=1 Hunter_BM_T14N.simc copy=BM_no_RF skip_actions=rapid_fire modify_action=readiness html=bm_no_rf.html


84903  50.6%  Hunter_BM_T14N

83048  49.4%  BM_no_RF

So rapid fire is worth 1.9k for BM in T14N using the current profiles.

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My understanding of the point Namarus is making, is that because RF is a pretty lackluster CD for BM, there is really no reason to not use it during BW anymore, even though we don't benefit from the haste directly, because of the increased forcus refen for both us and pet (are we sure RF increases pet focus regen? - will check in beta when I log on there later today).

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Based on the math, theorycrafting and my own testing / analyzing of beta logs and the likes, this kind of opening sequence is what I have come up with, ensuring you get the most out of your buffs:

SrS (effective opener, makes it easier to start off, too)> RF + BW > DB > LR (or Blink Strike) > KC > Readiness > DB (two beasts) > LR > AS > (two AS' to make sure the pet has finished doing the first rush)AS > LR > BW + RF.

This ensures that you are using your pet cooldowns within BW range to start with, and allows for maximum spammage of Arcane Shot, having considered the points made above with how RF functions well with BW, but not so much alone.

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Having just completed a couple of tests on the "internal test bosses" where I let the pet attack the boss till focus was the limiting factor of basic attacks, then observing it for a while, then using RF, I feel confident that RF does affect pet focus regen (despite being ranged haste).

Specifically I observed mostly 5, sometimes 4 seconds between basic attacks (claw in this case) after letting my pet drain itself of focus. Popping RF increased the frequency to just over 3 seconds on average while RF was up. At no time did I myself attack the boss, so GftT was not a factor.

One thing I can certainly say as a biproduct of this testing, is that crit is worth a lot more than mastery untill we get enough GftT procs that the pet is never focus starved for basic attacks, this is likely the reason for thej variation in crit value that I observed at earlier simming.

That the pet doe snot generate enough focus to use basic attacks on cd also explains why haste at lower gear levels seem more attractive (valuation wise), because it affects pet focus regen twice - base focus regen and autoshot speed - neither one nor both combined will analytically make haste = crit at any point for pet focus though.

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Based on the math, theorycrafting and my own testing / analyzing of beta logs and the likes, this kind of opening sequence is what I have come up with, ensuring you get the most out of your buffs:

SrS (effective opener, makes it easier to start off, too)> RF + BW > DB > LR (or Blink Strike) > KC > Readiness > DB (two beasts) > LR > AS > (two AS' to make sure the pet has finished doing the first rush)AS > LR > BW + RF.

This ensures that you are using your pet cooldowns within BW range to start with, and allows for maximum spammage of Arcane Shot, having considered the points made above with how RF functions well with BW, but not so much alone.

It's missing a few KCs there. I usually use Readiness after the 2nd KC so you can have 3 KC on your first BW.

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SrS (effective opener, makes it easier to start off, too)> RF + BW > DB > LR (or Blink Strike) > KC > Readiness > DB (two beasts) > LR > AS > (two AS' to make sure the pet has finished doing the first rush)AS > LR > BW + RF.

It has to be Readiness > KC so you can fit a third KC at the end of Bestial Wrath. Same as yours but ... > KC > Readiness > KC > DB > Lynx > ... > KC (before first BW ends). In the dots I don't remember how many arcane shots it fits.

For the second BW you will have to wait a bit so you ensure you will cast 2 KC in it (wait first RF to end, maybe shoot a cobra to keep sting a bit longer) and you dont have to use RF at same time with second BW. Right now that's what I do and the best burst I have managed is around 110k+ according to Skada (without Vial of Shadows since it hasn't made me the honor to drop). Most hunters I've seen is around that kind of burst more or less.

Also I believe we can work the same opener even at 90 with GT. Probably casting DB before RF+BW to win that gcd since it is tight for the 3rd KC and then adding the second GT in the dots, while making sure second Lynx is full within the first BW.

And Nooska I remember there was a Blue post explaining that Ranged attack speed affects pet focus regen (but not attack speed) and Melee attack speed affects his attack speed (but not pet focus regen). That's how those 2 buffs interact with pet. I will have to find it though.

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And Nooska I remember there was a Blue post explaining that Ranged attack speed affects pet focus regen (but not attack speed) and Melee attack speed affects his attack speed (but not pet focus regen). That's how those 2 buffs interact with pet. I will have to find it though.

Yes, I did test every haste/attack speed generating ability recently and I determined that was how it was working (and blue confirmed it). What it looks like is that the pet inherits the focus regen multiplier from haste directly from the hunter, instead of generating its own multiplier from the pet attack speed. That's why the ranged haste affects the pet in regen, but not in attack speed (since the pet inherits the melee attack speed bonuses). So focus fire also gives the pet not only direct regen from using it, but also the regen from the haste multiplier on the hunter.

One thing I'm not sure about is if the PvP set bonus affects the pet's regen- I don't have the PvP gear to test it myself. Currently I don't have it modeled as affecting the pet but if someone has the opportunity to test it and finds out otherwise please let me know.

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My understanding of the point Namarus is making, is that because RF is a pretty lackluster CD for BM, there is really no reason to not use it during BW anymore, even though we don't benefit from the haste directly, because of the increased forcus refen for both us and pet (are we sure RF increases pet focus regen? - will check in beta when I log on there later today).

This is exactly the point I was trying to make, but you made it better. Thank you for the interpretation.

Having just completed a couple of tests on the "internal test bosses" where I let the pet attack the boss till focus was the limiting factor of basic attacks, then observing it for a while, then using RF, I feel confident that RF does affect pet focus regen (despite being ranged haste).

Specifically I observed mostly 5, sometimes 4 seconds between basic attacks (claw in this case) after letting my pet drain itself of focus. Popping RF increased the frequency to just over 3 seconds on average while RF was up. At no time did I myself attack the boss, so GftT was not a factor.

One thing I can certainly say as a biproduct of this testing, is that crit is worth a lot more than mastery untill we get enough GftT procs that the pet is never focus starved for basic attacks, this is likely the reason for thej variation in crit value that I observed at earlier simming.

That the pet doe snot generate enough focus to use basic attacks on cd also explains why haste at lower gear levels seem more attractive (valuation wise), because it affects pet focus regen twice - base focus regen and autoshot speed - neither one nor both combined will analytically make haste = crit at any point for pet focus though.

Yes, GC has stated that pet regen is based on hunter focus regen. I think it was 1.25 multiplier. Therefore anything that improves hunter passive focus regeneration will improve pet passive focus regeneration. The point is, it makes sense to maximise pet damage during BW and Rapid Fire is a decent cooldown to use when you use BW for pet focus regneration. Especially since it is unlikely that FF will be up due to saving frenzy stacks for BW.

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For accuracy and if I remember correctly, he stated that pets have a base of 5 fps and everything affecting hunter's regen also affects pets. hunters have a base of 4 fps hence the simplified 1.25 model.

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Having just completed a couple of tests on the "internal test bosses" where I let the pet attack the boss till focus was the limiting factor of basic attacks, then observing it for a while, then using RF, I feel confident that RF does affect pet focus regen (despite being ranged haste).

Specifically I observed mostly 5, sometimes 4 seconds between basic attacks (claw in this case) after letting my pet drain itself of focus. Popping RF increased the frequency to just over 3 seconds on average while RF was up. At no time did I myself attack the boss, so GftT was not a factor.

One thing I can certainly say as a biproduct of this testing, is that crit is worth a lot more than mastery untill we get enough GftT procs that the pet is never focus starved for basic attacks, this is likely the reason for thej variation in crit value that I observed at earlier simming.

That the pet doe snot generate enough focus to use basic attacks on cd also explains why haste at lower gear levels seem more attractive (valuation wise), because it affects pet focus regen twice - base focus regen and autoshot speed - neither one nor both combined will analytically make haste = crit at any point for pet focus though.

Will this mean that we will get to experience "crit soft caps" and such for MoP. E.g a specific point / rating that will (in theory) make your auto-shots crit enough to trigger GfTF enough to eliminate all delays in pet basic attacks because of focus starvation?

Naturally, RNG is a very determinate factor in this, and I suppose such a cap might be variable depending on lots of factors such as raid buffs.

Entirely hypothetically, however, what would this rating / percentage crit be to (again, in theory) let your pet never focus starve for basic attacks assuming that your auto-shot will -always- crit for the stated percentage of the time?

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In reality there will be no softcap on crit, because whether you crit is rng, and therefore its is not improbable to not crit several autoshots in a row. All this means is that crit may be more valuable than shown in the sim if you are at high levels of crit, and be less valuable than shown when at a low level of crit.

We can do an averaging out and that way determine when you will on average never delay your pets basic attacks - this would be based on focus regen. Doing an averaging will make haste seem more valuable than it is though, since focus regen for the pet doubledips on haste - both from haste directly affecting focus regen, and from haste increasing the frequency of autoshots, thus increasing the frequency of critical autoshots and GftT procs as well.

Completely basic, to not delay pet basic attacks, you need a regen of 30 focus per 3 seconds, so 10 fps * fightlength (in seconds) - 120 (as you start with a full focus bar) for a 5 minute fight you need 2880 focus, or 9.6 fps.

At 0 haste your pet regenerates 5 fps, so we are left with 4.6 fps to gain from GftT, that equals 0.92 GftT procs per 3 seconds. Assuming a weaponspeed of 3 seconds we hit the GftT crit cap for 0 haste at 92% effective crit.

At 20% haste, our pet regenerates 6 fps, and out autoattack speed is at 2.5 second frequency. At 20% haste GftT needs to generate 3.6 fps for the same 5 minute fight, or on average 0.72 Autoshot crits per 3 seconds, which translates into a crit percent of 60% effective crit (1.2 autoshots per 3 seconds).

This means that 20% haste, in essence, generates the same amount of focus as 32% crit at those levels.

Summa summarum, we don't need to worry about getting to any crit softcap making it useless for GftT, even on average. This also shows why fervor is actually quite good for BM, and why we will want to use it essentially on CD, as it averages out to 1.67 fps for the pet, excluding the 50 focus gain - or the same as 0.334 GftT procs per 3 seconds, or 33% crit at 0 haste. (Remember, this is ignoring the instant 50 focus from using fervor)

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Even if pets could generate enough focus to never delay a basic attack, they still have Wild Hunt (2x focus cost, 2x damage) to make GftT still useful past that point.

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I'm actually not that big of a fan of the current wild hunt, seeing as pets don't have focus to attack on CD, WH actually reduces the chance for Frenzy / Focus Fire uptime, because it eats (and damages) focus for 2 attacks, but only provides 1 stack of Frenzy if procced (currently), thus being a worse option than simply overflowing focus a bit. I have a hunch (need to check either simmed or analytically) that WH actually also devalues Fervor, due to the same mechanic - it translates directly to damage via WH, but Frenzy uptime probably suffers due to more WH uses during fervor - though the ticking extra fps may make up for it with keeping focus high enough to let basic attacks be cast on CD, but not high enough to lead to more WH.

Your mention of WH does invalidate somewhat my very very napkinny math above, as WH means the initial 120 focus don't translate directly into 4 basic attacks, but more like 2 WH attacks and then a pause.

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Completely basic, to not delay pet basic attacks, you need a regen of 30 focus per 3 seconds

Just noticed that too. Pet basic attack is 25 focus so it would ´only´ require 59% crit chance with 0% haste and 32% with 20%. Or am I missing something?

[side note: In theory, it's possible to cap pet focus during Blood Lust+Rapid Fire with 30% haste and 38% crit chance. I doubt it's worth (or even possible) losing so much mastery for haste.]

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