Esoth

[MoP] Survival Hunter 5.4

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For expertise, do we need to hit both caps for melee and range stats? My range stats shows 6.53% expertise with Dwarf racial, but the melee stats only shows 5.53% expertise. Just wanted to make sure.

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No, you will only need to cap the ranged portion, so 2210 expertise rating will be enough as a dwarf/troll to cap your and your pets expertise needs.

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@ LilM8,

Great post, though SrS ticks while spamming MS. This can be tested on the target dummies. Get a Thrill of the Hunt proc, then spam 5 multishots (you must get successive TotH procs from the Multishots). The damage log will show SrS ticks in a multiple of 7 (14 if 2 targets, 21 if 3), not a multiple of 5, meaning 2 ticks occurred during the MS spam.

When they created Cobra Shot they moved the SrS tick to a different timer from the DoT.

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Regardless of most raid targets being immune to CC component, Ice Trap seems to create a significant increase in chances of getting LnL procs, behaving cumulatively with BA, which makes me wonder why it is not mentioned anywhere on this thread, even using on CD and at a high priority.

Also I'm wondering if Glyph of No Escape has effect on raid bosses or is it worthless for raids?

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Also I'm wondering if Glyph of No Escape has effect on raid bosses or is it worthless for raids?

Freezing trap is the "ice block" trap, not the "ice patch" trap, so it won't work on the grand majority of bosses.

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Also I'm wondering if Glyph of No Escape has effect on raid bosses or is it worthless for raids?

The glyph says that you gain extra critical strike on targets affected, thus it requires the target to be affected. If the target has the slowed icon as a debuff, it is affected, if it doesn't it isn't. Most bosses are unaffected by the slowing patch (though they trigger it), so it would not have any benefit there. It is however a useful glyph in a "kill the adds" situation, especially if you are kiting them around so you are dropping the trap anyway.

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If the target has the slowed icon as a debuff, it is affected, if it doesn't it isn't. Most bosses are unaffected by the slowing patch (though they trigger it), so it would not have any benefit there.

The glyph works with Freezing Trap (freezes target in an ice cube). The slowing trap is Ice Trap.

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With imp SrS, my SrS is hitting for about 10k instant damage at a cost of 15 focus while my AS is hitting for about 5k at a cost of 20 focus. It seems that SrS will always be better than AS for SV hunters. This is even before you factor in the need to cast CoS just to refresh it which has a cast time. Also not counting the fact that you can dot adds in situations where you would just be using AS to bleed focus.

I dont have raid gear on my hunter nor do I normally do much theorycrafting. Is there a flaw in this thinking. Does BiS gear change these numbers. I wouldn't think gear would make that big of a difference to overcome a 100% more damage and 25% less focus cost plus all the other benefits but I don't know how to test that.

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With imp SrS, my SrS is hitting for about 10k instant damage at a cost of 15 focus while my AS is hitting for about 5k at a cost of 20 focus. It seems that SrS will always be better than AS for SV hunters. This is even before you factor in the need to cast CoS just to refresh it which has a cast time. Also not counting the fact that you can dot adds in situations where you would just be using AS to bleed focus.

I dont have raid gear on my hunter nor do I normally do much theorycrafting. Is there a flaw in this thinking. Does BiS gear change these numbers. I wouldn't think gear would make that big of a difference to overcome a 100% more damage and 25% less focus cost plus all the other benefits but I don't know how to test that.

It looks like some of the discrepancy in your case is that you have a fairly weak weapon compared to the rest of your gear. Arcane shot scales with weapon damage, whereas serpent sting only scales with RAP. However, even taking that into account, I'm not really sure how you could be seeing those numbers- what RAP and weapon damage do you have when you're testing this? Are you sure you're not comparing an arcane shot hit to an imp sting crit?

Doing the math with my gear, I have 50648 RAP raid buffed before procs, and average weapon damage of 14442.

Arcane shot formula:

(avg weapon dmg + RAP * .2) + 2306 = 26877.6

Serpent sting formula:

RAP * .16 + 3240.38 (per tick, ticks every 3 sec) = 11344.06 * 1.5 for talent = 17016.09

Improved serpent sting formula:

Serpent sting tick * 5 ticks * .15 = 12762.0675

So according to those numbers, in good gear arcane shot is over 2x the damage of improved sting.

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With imp SrS, my SrS is hitting for about 10k instant damage at a cost of 15 focus while my AS is hitting for about 5k at a cost of 20 focus. It seems that SrS will always be better than AS for SV hunters. This is even before you factor in the need to cast CoS just to refresh it which has a cast time. Also not counting the fact that you can dot adds in situations where you would just be using AS to bleed focus.

I dont have raid gear on my hunter nor do I normally do much theorycrafting. Is there a flaw in this thinking. Does BiS gear change these numbers. I wouldn't think gear would make that big of a difference to overcome a 100% more damage and 25% less focus cost plus all the other benefits but I don't know how to test that.

It is not a flaw on your thinking, this is simply impossible. Equipping on my 495 gear an ilvl11 bow, 7.74 dps (14-26 dmg) gives me 9k+ arcane shots. to hit for 5k you need something like firelands gear with the same green bow.

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I'm looking at the set bonus for survival, and wondering if it would be a DPS loss or gain to pool explosive shots to use during favorable times. The set bonus stacks to 20, and the lock and load procs can add a proc.

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Updated for 5.4. Some remaining questions:

  • Proper target count for multi-shot dot upkeep, and proper target count for spamming multi shot.
  • Preferred trinkets

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With Assurance of Consequences BA has a lower CD than duration. If you refresh it before the old one expires do you lose the remaining damage or does it roll it into the new duration?

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Unless they've changed it recently (which seems unlikely) it should work like a standard DoT, which means it will take whatever is left on the next tick and apply that to the new one. So for example, if you refresh it when there's 1 second left, your new BA will have a 21 second duration, but if you apply it when there are 3 seconds left it will still only have a 21 second duration since only what's left of the last tick will be kept. This is how it worked before when you reset BA with readiness, and it's unlikely they would modify it to work differently just because of the trinket.

One benefit of the shorter cooldown past the actual duration of BA is that on multi-target fights, you can do some limited multidotting with your BA.

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Unless they've changed it recently (which seems unlikely) it should work like a standard DoT, which means it will take whatever is left on the next tick and apply that to the new one. So for example, if you refresh it when there's 1 second left, your new BA will have a 21 second duration, but if you apply it when there are 3 seconds left it will still only have a 21 second duration since only what's left of the last tick will be kept. This is how it worked before when you reset BA with readiness, and it's unlikely they would modify it to work differently just because of the trinket.

One benefit of the shorter cooldown past the actual duration of BA is that on multi-target fights, you can do some limited multidotting with your BA.

To add to this, another benefit of the shorter cooldown is having an extra few seconds on each black arrow to optimally refresh it during trinket/scope procc etc.

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Regarding the 4pc Bonus for SV I'm quite unsure how to deal with it.

I got it for about 2 raids and played SV every so often.

It happened quite often that I got an insane proc chain with about 7-9 Shots before the final Explosive Shot was fired (the one after the LnL-proc).

As Explosive Shot is the highest priority, I don't bother with other cooldowns and spam the hell out of it.

But sometimes it happens that I cap on focus. And this is where I can't really decide what to do. Keep spamming or use Arcane / Multi-Shot (depending on the fight)?

In addition I got the Normal-Verson of Assurance of Consequences (double upgrade), thus my BA has a lower Cooldown (and is ready before it runs out).

Furthermore the 2pc Bonus grants me quite many possibilities to use Rapid Fire.

The following is when I'm about to focus cap.

If there is a proc and BA comes off cooldown (and runs out) I use it and then continue with the LnL Proc.

Is it right? I mean, more procs = more explosvie shots = more dps. I assume this is the right way, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

In addition to that, if I just keep spamming Explosive Shot I have no real possibility to use arcane or multi to reduce the RF-CD. Most of the time, when I'm about to cap, RF is currently running (increasing the focus regen). If I dont use Arcane or Multi this would mean less uses of RF and therefore fewer situations where I'm about to cap. Without doing the maths, delaying the RF-CD reduction looks like a DPS loss. But so does focus capping.

I'm quite on the edge about the 4pc bonus (I won't discard it - ofc not). It makes Survival so "complicated" (with AoC-Trinket).

Maybe the solution is quite easy, but then I don't see it.

How do you deal with it?

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I'm about to cap. Without doing the maths, delaying the RF-CD reduction looks like a DPS loss. But so does focus capping.

Focus Capping isn't a DPS loss if you're performing the maximum dps 'rotation/priority'.

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Focus Capping isn't a DPS loss if you're performing the maximum dps 'rotation/priority'.

Or to put it a bit more spelled out; Focus capping is only a loss of dps if you could have converted that focus to more damage than you are actually outputting.

In the case of LnL you could argue that converting focus to AS damage (or other damage) to avoid capping, and then using your free ExS is more damage when looking at the next 10 seconds (since you don't 'lose' the focus that would have capped). Whether this is the case I can't actually say, because I'm not 100% up to date on how ExS rolls on the target - ie., whether it is a DOT, or whether it is a recalculation. If it works as a DOT you would gain from using an AS in between some ExS when you get a procchain of 7-9 ExS (as you would otherwise clip 1 or 2 ticks, since only the last tick carries over in the DOT rolling mechanic). If it works as a recalculation, you should just dump all the ExS because you might get another proc, thus wasting part of the proc you delayed to dump focus.

As long as you use the highest damage/priority ability it doesn't matter if you focus cap. There are/will be/ might be exceptions to this, but those are special circumstances, and generally atre of the type "if you don't use X focus now, you will loose out on ability Y in 2-3 actions".

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Can someone please run an updated Survival DPS profile for Troll and Orc. I'd like to see what the dps looks like now.

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Orc should still be significantly behind Troll for SV profiles due to Orc profiles being more focused on pet dps (and SV has such a low percentage of pet dps). Here is the list of public profiles I am currently maintaining for Troll SV BiS. Keep in mind that the Powershot profiles require good luck with Powershot proccing the cloak and is probably too variable to actually try in a raid environment (without being mocked ;D). Though, on multitarget fights where the proc hits, it should be pretty decent.

 

404,346.02 dps: T16H SV Warforged DPS Power Haromm Crows    
398,470.69 dps: T16H SV Warforged DPS GT Harrom Crows    
397,557.42 dps: T16H SV Warforged DPS Power Haromm Crows TotH   
397,429.33 dps: T16H SV Warforged DPS Power Haromm Crows_ReserveBow    
396,793.27 dps: T16H SV Warforged DPS GT Haromm    
396,521.28 dps: T16H SV Warforged DPS Power Haromm   
388,554.19 dps: T16H SV Warforged DPS GT Ebon    
385,649.14 dps: T16H SV Warforged DPS Power Ebon

 

If you find a better profile that you would like me to update, let me know.

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