Earen

[Resto] Mists of Pandaria 5.4

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Whatever, here's a quick and dirty. 5730 and 9543 are the relevant ones.

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Updated. Please let me know if you think I need to clarify the SotF breakpoints better.

e: Also, if anyone can confirm the mana pot/Water Spirit thing, that would be great.

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@ Water Spirit - They did share a CD with Pots on Beta, you can gather them while gathering your plants doing Tiller dailies as a non-herbalist.

<Reserve for live testing of the breakpoints, my prediction is off by 10-15 points which may possibly be rounding errors on my part>

Though my predictions + beta character sheet matched up.

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Obtained one on live, did some logging for about an hour in heroics, shortest duration between procs was 15 sec for 5082 mana with most procs occurring every 16-20 seconds. This results in an MP5 equivalent between 1271 (ICD avg 20 seconds) to 1694 mp5 (15 seconds). Given how this mana return is greater than any of the other available trinkets by a factor of two, I do not expect the ICD to remain that way for long.

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Obtained one on live, did some logging for about an hour in heroics, shortest duration between procs was 15 sec for 5082 mana with most procs occurring every 16-20 seconds. This results in an MP5 equivalent between 1271 (ICD avg 20 seconds) to 1694 mp5 (15 seconds). Given how this mana return is greater than any of the other available trinkets by a factor of two, I do not expect the ICD to remain that way for long.

Got the same results. In a 5m fight it was about 1400 mp5. Seems way too strong compared to the other trinkets.

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Will it be worth going above 3043 haste for the extra Regrowth ticks at 5730 and 6652 when gear capable of those numbers is available? It seems a druid would have to specifically gear for near pure haste to achieve that mark, while reducing our efficiency with rejuvenation. Putting that extra value (~3600) into mastery instead gains about 7.5% potency on all of our HoTs and thusly improves efficiency.

As we gain regen, we will use less nourish and regrowth is fast already, so any bonus to general casting speed will diminish and our percentage of healing via HoTs will increase making mastery more important. Until we are at a gear point where it's difficult to not have 6652 haste I don't think we'll benefit as much from haste as we will from mastery once beyond the 3043 break.

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No. Once you are at the 3043 breakpoint, you do not want to give up other stats for haste until such time that you can achieve the 5730 (with SotF) or 6652. As stated, haste becomes our weakest stat outside of breakpoints. The important breakpoints to reach are for Rejuv and Wild Growth.

e: I think I am confused by your commentary, as there are not Regrowth breakpoints at the numbers listed, and I think you mean Rejuv/WG. In time, I feel that gear may lend itself to supporting the higher breakpoints without too much trouble. I could be wrong, and if our gear never gets to that point, then you will stay at the lower breakpoint. However, if it does become possible, it will be worth the effort to achieve them.

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Sorry for any confusion. When I say beyond 3043, I don't mean between break points. I mean beyond 3043 is the 6652 break point worth the loss of efficency (both mana and cast time) and loss of significant mastery (and perhaps spirit). How much healing does an extra tick of Wild Growth give us compared to 7.5% additional healing on all HoTs (including Wild Growth).

I haven't constructed my BiS list yet as I'm still working on obtaining my pre-raid set. 6652 may be possible in this first epic tier, but it would likely mean gearing for pure haste. Perhaps in the future (T15/16) it may be possible to achieve 6652 in a trivial fashion while not sacrificing too much in other stats making that break more attractive. At the same time though, with improved gear comes enough regen, that we will no longer be casting as much nourish and relying more on HoTs and Regrowth, which doesn't benefit much from haste, especially when glyphed.

My underlying question to all of this is will it ever benefit us to equip more than 3043 haste at any gear level in this expansion? Unless we can reach 13426 haste to gain the group of bonus ticks from 12834 to 13426 I question the loss of mastery and efficiency when going above 3043 and below 13426.

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Hi there! I was looking at the list of trinkets that we'll be looking for, and noticed some inconsistencies with your listing for the Darkmoon Card trinket, [iTEM]79330[/iTEM]. You list it as having 956 static intellect, while the version that went live has 1157 intellect.

If it stays at 1157 intellect and 750 odd MP5, it will easily be one of our best trinkets through regular raiding and possibly a good second trinket choice for regen in heroic raids. It beats out [iTEM]87081[/iTEM] and [iTEM]89080[/iTEM] rather handily.

Personally, I expect to be using [iTEM]81266[/iTEM] and the DMC trinket for regen well into the first tier. I'll test out my DMC trinket once the faire opens and report back.

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I haven't constructed my BiS list yet as I'm still working on obtaining my pre-raid set. 6652 may be possible in this first epic tier, but it would likely mean gearing for pure haste. Perhaps in the future (T15/16) it may be possible to achieve 6652 in a trivial fashion while not sacrificing too much in other stats making that break more attractive. At the same time though, with improved gear comes enough regen, that we will no longer be casting as much nourish and relying more on HoTs and Regrowth, which doesn't benefit much from haste, especially when glyphed.

My underlying question to all of this is will it ever benefit us to equip more than 3043 haste at any gear level in this expansion? Unless we can reach 13426 haste to gain the group of bonus ticks from 12834 to 13426 I question the loss of mastery and efficiency when going above 3043 and below 13426.

As you mentioned one big issue is that you sacrifice a lot of other stats, if it is just crit and mastery that is completly fine, but if you cut into spirit or even int to reach the haste cap the haste cap will not be as good anymore.

the other thing you should recognise is that, as mentioned above, haste between those breakpoints is very weak, so until you reach your desired gear it will be relativly "bad", as you can only reforge so much, that then the progress is probably over anyway.

imho the higher breakpoints will become interesting in future raiding tiers, but not just now

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Hi there! I was looking at the list of trinkets that we'll be looking for, and noticed some inconsistencies with your listing for the Darkmoon Card trinket, [iTEM]79330[/iTEM]. You list it as having 956 static intellect, while the version that went live has 1157 intellect.

Fixed.

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1. Would love to drum up some discussion on Professions for us Resto Druids - I know the general rule of thumb is they are all 'similar' expect for JC which I believe has become the 'weaker' of the non-gathering professions. It seems that Blacksmithing is now a no-brainier as secondary stats have become so valuable, but for the 2nd profession I'm having a tough time deciding.

Many are of the opinion of Tailoring, but I am concerned with it being a 'proc' rather then a straight static value - has anyone been through what I am/done some further hard maths :)?

2. With Season 12 going live now, what pieces would you suggest aiming for pre-raiding? I see you listed a few PvP pieces in the OP, but a few Spirit pieces are missing - is there an order we should look at purchasing these, maybe the 2pc over the misc Rings/Amulets?

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PvP set-

The two piece (500 PvP power) is worthless the four piece is valuable (30 second IB, 13 sec SM)

Gearing for the WG breakpoint at 6k is doable but at a huge cost to spirit, it's safer to go with the 3k RJ breakpoint until you acquire enough gear and experience to lose spirit.

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We’re working to adjust current Justice and Honor gear to better align with intended values. Currently it’s more lucrative to run Battelgrounds for ilvl 464 epics, and convert all Justice to Honor to gear up. While some crossover is fine, the most optimal way to gear for PvE doesn’t make sense to happen through PvP.

This hotfix will ideally go out today, and once applied will change all Justice and Honor items (including those already purchased) in the following ways:

Justice Items

Current – ilvl 450 Rare

New – ilvl 458 Rare

Honor Items

Current – ilvl 464 Epic

New – ilvl 458 Rare

We’ll be increasing the PvP Power and Resilience on the Honor items by 15% to compensate for this change.

Again, our design in Mists of Pandaria is to allow for a greater degree of crossover between PvE and PvP using the same gear, but the original item levels simply made Honor gear (through Battlegrounds or conversion of Justice to Honor) a far better route to gear up for PvE. Players who enjoy PvE shouldn’t feel forced to PvP to get the best gear, and vice versa.

This may devalue the PvP gear some, even with the set bonuses. Will have to look at what the new stats look like once they are finished.

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Some quick questions/thoughts for you all :

1) Nature's Vigil is affecting tranquility ? Is the 6% passive intellect fron heart of wild better in short fights and lose its value in longer fights due to nature's vigil being a 3min cd.

1.a) Assuming we take sotf as talent which talent compliment it better? heart of wild or nature's vigil? Since with sotf we lose our 3min cd burst so nature's vigil is somehow cover for it .

2) I dont think we accurately measure how good sotf talent is vs tree since healing is dynamic therefore we dont cast swiftmend on cd in addition since some classes receive bonus in incoming healing (or this is not true anymore? e.g. rogue,shaman etc.) we cant predict which classes will receive the wild growth (assuming 25man raiding for this sentence).

3) Why everyone consider mastery to be bad in mist? Its still a direct buff to our heal even if we get mastery buff in raids)

3.a) Would we care for crit more ? How is it affecting our mana regen and healing in relation to clearcasting and living seed ? Is this comment in the guide accurate " All healing effects are able to crit" ?

4) Should we use more intellect or mana potions?

5) Do you think it worths keeping 2 heroic gear pieces for mana regen issues? Or does't worth it at all due to increase stats from 463 (at least) items?

Thank you.

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@Price of Progress "Hotfix"

Price of Progress change from the 15 sec ICD to a 45 sec ICD as of 10.03.12 meaning it has a ~500 mp5 still superior to the other dungeon trinkets.

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@ PvP "Hotfix"

The question here will be if the ilvl 458 PvP gear with sockets compares to the many ilvl 464 Heroic Dungeon pieces, many of which lack sockets. Personally, the dramatic reduction in an external CD on tanks during progression can have a great value.

@ Questions

1. Tranquility is affected by Nature's Vigil, HoTW is good for a sustained healing increase where if you have a predictable burst healing requirement Nature's Vigil will shine.

1. a. With SoTF, either talent works just follows the comments above with sustained healing vs burst healing.

2. I don't really consider ToL to be a burst healing mechanic, at most a mana CD / tank CD with the sustained regrowths. SoTF certainly has benefit in some fights where there are burst mechanics for damage on the raid.

3. You will have to run the numbers, my approximations have mastery coming out ahead. Mainly due to the reliability versus the overheal that crit tends to do.

4. With limitation of one potion per fight, you are better off with more spirit and to get more int / mastery as you get more comfortable with your mana availability.

5. I don't think it's worth keeping 410 DS gear because of the stat elevation made in MoP outweighs the mana especially since you can't use the MoP gems in the 410 gear so you lose a lot of potential gemming.

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A few questions for you guys~

1. haste breakpoints. As far as i can see those are unchanged from cataclysm( i can still see that 2004 break we all know and love) yet at level 90... arent't they obsolete?

2. Why do people hate on displacer beast so much? it's a blink for purposes of getting out of stuff quickly and it's vanish for saving on repair costs. ofc multiplicative 15% are cooler but still... why do you love wild charge?

3. Do resto druids actually...use nourish? i haven't used it since i was level 15 and never looked back. With the changes to mastery timing swiftmend is enough to maintain it so is there any actual purpose to using it?

Oh and HotW lasts 45 seconds not 30 what's up with that description.

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@Price of Progress "Hotfix"

Price of Progress change from the 15 sec ICD to a 45 sec ICD as of 10.03.12 meaning it has a ~500 mp5 still superior to the other dungeon trinkets.

1. Be interesting to see an updated Trinket 'list' - guess waiting on the mighty theorycrafters to come back with updated Heroic JP (which is crap) but what will be more interesting is the PvP 458 vs some of our pieces.

With the drop of some VP gear to Honoured, we have some decisions to make - should we get Neck/Ring first etc

2. I'll still be interested in seeing what people think of current professions - BS being a given, but for a secondary, what do we think of Tailoring?

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The 2004 is a coincidence; the breakpoints are all different now, look more closely.

On the more interesting stuff--I can see doing a little more with Displacer Beat. It has a longer cooldown than WC, which is a big downside. I guess it has no other real downside, since shifting to Cat is automatically undone when you cast your next spell anyway. Repair costs don't really matter, but does the Vanish effect drop aggro? That could be significant. Also perhaps, in practice, it's a little quicker to react since you don't need to target someone.

For Nourish, I'm going to wait until I get more time in on TreeCalcs--in Cata it was definitely true that using Nourish was very close to doing nothing. With longer Lifebloom and Harmony times, you no longer need to use it as much to support those mechanics, so we'll have to see how the heal/mana numbers work out.

Professions--

BS gives the option of secondary stats, so even putting aside the slight gain in total strength, the flexibility is nice as always (especially given the importance of our haste caps). The same is not true for JC since its secondary stat gems are weaker.

Tailoring is no longer as impressive at it once was. For Moonkin it's fine, but no longer beats the others in terms of average Int. But for Resto, I don't see much reason to take a random proc over a static bonus. Darkglow does instead give the option to get Spirit at an okay (but not great) ratio, if you're really trying to power Spirit (but I think people are overemphasizing this too much).

I'd say if you're trying to be super min/maxy, can't deny Blacksmithing, but other than that the choice is pretty free.

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The 2004 is a coincidence; the breakpoints are all different now, look more closely.

On the more interesting stuff--I can see doing a little more with Displacer Beat. It has a longer cooldown than WC, which is a big downside. I guess it has no other real downside, since shifting to Cat is automatically undone when you cast your next spell anyway. Repair costs don't really matter, but does the Vanish effect drop aggro? That could be significant. Also perhaps, in practice, it's a little quicker to react since you don't need to target someone.

For Nourish, I'm going to wait until I get more time in on TreeCalcs--in Cata it was definitely true that using Nourish was very close to doing nothing. With longer Lifebloom and Harmony times, you no longer need to use it as much to support those mechanics, so we'll have to see how the heal/mana numbers work out.

Professions--

BS gives the option of secondary stats, so even putting aside the slight gain in total strength, the flexibility is nice as always (especially given the importance of our haste caps). The same is not true for JC since its secondary stat gems are weaker.

Tailoring is no longer as impressive at it once was. For Moonkin it's fine, but no longer beats the others in terms of average Int. But for Resto, I don't see much reason to take a random proc over a static bonus. Darkglow does instead give the option to get Spirit at an okay (but not great) ratio, if you're really trying to power Spirit (but I think people are overemphasizing this too much).

I'd say if you're trying to be super min/maxy, can't deny Blacksmithing, but other than that the choice is pretty free.

1. We just started raiding tonight, sitting at around 8000 spirit buffed (275 Spirit Food + Spirit Flask) and in our healing channel everyone is suffering from the same thing - going oom. We got 2/6 (crappy start with Server lag etc) down, and every healing class was suffering from it - so I think Spirit isn't overemphasized as of yet - specially in the early days of 458 Rares.

I agree with you on Blacksmithing, and now you've thrown a spanner into the works about Tailoring haha - I'm lost as to what I should level. Alchemy seems nice with the extended Flask buff I guess - LW is useless for Resto (about for the Bracer), Tailoring gave us Pants enchant + the Embroidery. Engi is always good at the start of an xpac, but Helm is quickly replaced, and the Synapse triggering the 10sec lockout for On-Use Trinkets could cause issues as (by the looks of our BiS list - have a On-Use Trinket).

What makes you say Tailoring is all the sh*t hot now for Resto, isn't it the same as it was before?

2. I think with the Klaxxi Neck being dropped, and many people close to Rev with Golden Lotus - our first two purchases should be the Neck + Ring no?

Do any of the PvPs (yet to look at the nerfed 458 gear) - stand out from the crowd as honor is quite easy to get vs VP atm..?

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Displacer Beast is not a vanish, it simply blinks you and adds the prowl effect. In PvP that means other players will drop target, but in PvE mobs will not drop aggro and you do not drop combat.

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Ok so with that clarified, Displacer Beast doesn't seem all that exciting.

Spirit: yeah, my experience in Heroics might not be that informative, will see what I think after a few challenges. My logic though is that in hard content you need actual throughput too; I'm not sure that being undergeared favors Spirit as much as people think. I think it's clear to favor it as the best secondary for now, but favoring it over Int (except in the 2:1 gem situation) is probably a bit much. Trading a 2000 Int tailoring proc for a 3000 spirit one may be relevant for some people right now, but that's probably short-lived.

Alchemy once again gives you potions that are both cheap and have a health component in addition to the mana--small gameplay benefit since you can use your mana pot as a healthstone sometime during the fight.

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I ran about 7700 spirit last night and also had significant mana issues (I did, however, run with int food/flask and may change that up to spirit food and flask tonight as we get deeper into the zone, I haven't decided yet). All healers were in the same boat mana wise for us as well, including a priest running something like 12,000 spirit. So I don't know if I just need to be smarter with spell timing/selection or if I need to boost my regen up some - I suspect it is likely a combination of both.

Of additional note, and perhaps I'm just being overly aggressive/not smart with it, but I swapped back to ToL for Feng as I just did have the ability to push through the end of the fight with SotF mana wise, even with two tides. It worked fine for me on Stone Guard, but with the longer fight and higher damage I found a fair bit of value in ToL. I'm curious if anyone else has similar experience in that regard. I am going to swap back to SotF for the Spiritbinder tonight, as with the mana gain in the spirit realm I don't see it being as big of an issue.

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