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Whitefyst

[MoP] Best Possible DPS with Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer (femaledwarf.com)

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I'm getting theese stat weights for Survival fully raidbuffed ilvl 472....

Agility=3.5 HitRating=1.397, ExpertiseRating=1.01, MasteryRating=0.923, CritRating=0.036, HasteRating=0.778, Ap=1.392, Rap=1.392, Could someone explain to me whats gone wrong? I can dig that haste could be valued more at times depending on plateu, but .932 mastery vs crit (uber) at .036........ ?

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I'm getting theese stat weights for Survival fully raidbuffed ilvl 472....

Agility=3.5 HitRating=1.397, ExpertiseRating=1.01, MasteryRating=0.923, CritRating=0.036, HasteRating=0.778, Ap=1.392, Rap=1.392, Could someone explain to me whats gone wrong? I can dig that haste could be valued more at times depending on plateu, but .932 mastery vs crit (uber) at .036........ ?

Is that a BM spec simulation? There are some abilities which proc off crit in BM which are supported directly in the simulation which can create distortions in stat value for crit as well.

Update: Missed the word survival. Can you give me a saved setting link so I can see if I can tell what's going on?

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Something is not right with Pandas and food buff. Going from 275 agility buff to 300 one shows a damage loss for about 20 DPS.

For any other race seems ok.

If it helps, this character along with Spirit Beast was imported when I noticed mentioned bug.

EDIT; However, I can't "recreate" the same bug. It might be an error on my end after all.

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Seems like the numbers for BM are a little off in the OP, probably because of changes in the sim. Using the links in the OP, I get these numbers:

BM Neutral DPS 109088 -> 109412, a gain of 324 DPS.

BM Max DPS 113714 -> 114053, a gain of 339 DPS.

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I updated the BM numbers.

I also checked some of the previous changes that people had provided me and which I had not had the time to act upon yet. All of these seem to be overcome by events. In private messages to me, please indicate what exactly you have changed instead of just sending me a link to your settings.

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Replacing Relic of Xuen with Bottle of Infinite Stars Heroic seems to be a very minor dps gain with the profiles in the OP. Neutral case went from 109412 to 109715 dps (link), a gain of 303 dps, and max dps went from 114053 to 114212 dps (link), a gain of 159 dps. I reforged the mastery in BoIS HC into crit.

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I just completed updating all 6 of the profiles to reflect the numbers with the 5.1 changes. This includes updating all of the gear pieces via VP. This was just a quick analysis where I did not change any gear pieces and only did a quick reforge to try to get the now overcaps in hit and exp due to the item upgrades closer to 0 ovecap. I do not have the time to optimize each of the cases. PLus, I need to leave something for the rest of you all to do anyway. :)

From these numbers, the max DPS cases for MM and SV are quite comparable and within 0.5% of each other. The 5.1 changes should help MMs perform closer to their maximum potential than previously such that I think that MMs and SVs should be please close in actual single-target fights. SV seems to be less dependent on racials than MM though.

BM is still the clear leader in hunter DPS with doing about 8.5% more DPS than the other two specs.

I apologize for ignoring any recent posts for improvements to the profiles. I was waiting to see the effects of the 5.1 changes. Please reevaluate the changes and let me know if they still provide improvements. If they do, then I will update the profiles.

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For some reason I'm getting higher DPS score on all cases if I simply just run them. As far as I can see, SV is above MM, so I'm guessing those results on the first page were made before SrS change or am I wrong?

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I have updated the numbers again to account for the changes since the last time I posted them. Note that I did not do any optimizations over what was previously there, so feel free to see if you can tweak more DPS.

The current single target numbers by spec look like:

[table]Spec|Max DPS|% Behind

BM|131605|-----

SV|123526|-6.1%

MM|122170|-7.2%[/table]

From these numbers, SV seems to still clearly be ahead on single target fights.

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For the Beast Mastery Maximum DPS setting, if you move Focus Fire up the shot priority list so that it is above Arcane Shot (and below Stampede) you'll gain 140.57 DPS (for a total of 131745.21).

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Just taking the three existing Maximum DPS templates (for BM, MM, and SV) from the first post shows some interesting results with the current 5.2 settings:

BM: 129214 (down 2391)

MM: 125800 (up 3630)

SV: 124601 (up 1075)

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A file is missing so I can't check the site at the moment but Zeherah changed support for Legendary gems so old saves don't include them anymore hence the lower result for BM. 5.2 changes compensated that for other specs.

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I updated the 2 MM numbers as a starting point for others to maximize. A few things to note:

- This profile is 223 hit over the cap. I could not reduce that hit without replacing heroic thunderforged gear or tier pieces. Hence, the hit overcap stuck. This excess of hit makes the Shado Pan Assualt trinket a horrible option.

- ET is still a DPS loss in single target situations

- GT is a small DPS loss during the CA phase and can be ignored

- Delaying CS cast during the CA phase is best but not much better than using CS on CD

- Naturally this set up started with a huge amount of haste at over 8000. Reducing this haste much though is a DPS loss since 7896 haste rating is the level for a 1.33s SS cast time allows 3 SSs in a CS cycle and still having a tight CS cycle. Since 3 SS CS cycles are the most common, this is a nice benefit. I did reduce as much haste as I could to get a little more crit and more mastery and was able to reduce haste by about 2K, but that situation was a 550 DPS loss. This is not that much relatively to 160K DPS. Hence, after crit, mastery and haste are pretty even.

- AI is definitely used more often now as the focus dump, but AS is still used a significant period.

- Rune of Re-Origination is very interesting trinket. Due to its stats havok, I looked into replacing it; however, since it has a high amount of static agility, it is by far the second best trinket. The original setup had crit rating > haste rating. This meant that when this trinket procced that all haste and mastery went to crit. This caused several problems:

-- During the CA phase, SS and AI cast times were increased. This is actually not a bad thing since both were below the 1s GCD anyway with both RF and BL.

-- During the CA most of that extra crit is lost since the two main shots, AI and SS, are already crit capped due to CA. It does help our other abilities though.

-- When the trinket procs outside the CA phase and when otherwise unhasted, our SS cast time is increased to a little over 1.5s, which is not too bad if only need 2 SSs that cycle, but the odds are that you will need more SSs since the lost of haste also reduces focus regen.

I then tried the trinket with haste higher than crit to enable AI hard casts when the trinket procs. This was a DPS loss since the AIs and other shots have horrible crit rates and loss of PS damage.

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What limits are you placing on profiles. For simc T15H, we use any heroic or Raden loot (which is thunderforged), but not other thunderforged loot. My understanding is that other thunderforged loot will be quite rare, or at least rare enough that it's not useful for guidance or planning. Additionally, simc normally runs with the assumption that 2 shaman and 2 warriors are dropping totems and banners respectively. One note: the current best profile has only 10% for the CA period instead of 20%.

[table]Most recent|165,682

... plus 20%CA|166,741

... plus totems and banners|173,170

Simc T15H in FD with WF settings and totems|159,510

Simc T15H in FD|166,557

Whitefyst's profile in simc with default actions|170,715

Simc T15H in simc with default actions|174,713[/table]

The primary improvements in the T15H profile under FD came from saving focus for murder and prioritizing chimera. That still isn't as good as the current best here, but there are two interesting notes: for just a small difference in overall dps, the tradeoffs around murder and chimera flipped; and that in simc the profiles are different in their performance. I suspect a non-trivial difference is in the shot selection during the rune trinket proc. I could potentially build an entirely different shot selection for a rune proc in simc, for example. That made a big enough difference for Monk to be worth special work (and it made the trinket BiS). I have not yet encountered proposals for those behavior differences, though.

Last note: while Zeherah and I were comparing outputs for the above numbers, we found opposite bugs in RPPM proc handling. We hope that the numbers between the two systems will converge a little more. Trinkets like rune, however, are likely to make action list differences much more noticeable.

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What limits are you placing on profiles. For simc T15H, we use any heroic or Raden loot (which is thunderforged), but not other thunderforged loot. My understanding is that other thunderforged loot will be quite rare, or at least rare enough that it's not useful for guidance or planning. Additionally, simc normally runs with the assumption that 2 shaman and 2 warriors are dropping totems and banners respectively. One note: the current best profile has only 10% for the CA period instead of 20%.

The primary improvements in the T15H profile under FD came from saving focus for murder and prioritizing chimera. That still isn't as good as the current best here, but there are two interesting notes: for just a small difference in overall dps, the tradeoffs around murder and chimera flipped; and that in simc the profiles are different in their performance. I suspect a non-trivial difference is in the shot selection during the rune trinket proc. I could potentially build an entirely different shot selection for a rune proc in simc, for example. That made a big enough difference for Monk to be worth special work (and it made the trinket BiS). I have not yet encountered proposals for those behavior differences, though.

Thanks for the feedback - very much appreciated. Some comments:

1) Good catch on the CA phase duration. I am pretty sure that I had changed that but when going back to a previous save I must have undone it. Both MM profiles are now updated to include the 20% CA phase.

2) Concerning the limits on the profile, for the most part I tried to specify that in the Fixed Settings area. In there, I chose to set Skull Banner and Stormlash Totem to zero. The reason was somewhat arbitrary considering that this is a max DPS case, but I left those off since those are specific buffs provided only by a single class or spec that not every 10-man raid will have included.

3) Concerning the Thunderforged gear, good point on its rarity and the very small odds that anyone will have all the possible Thunderforged gear. I did not consider it when quickly making this profile. However, what reasonable limits would your propose? Use no Thunderforge gear? Limit the number of Thunderforge items?

4) As I stated in the post, I am pretty busy at the moment and just quickly formed this profile to get the ball rolling with knowing that there should be room for improvement. Your note seemed to indicate some changes that could be made (beyond the buffs), but I was unclear on what exactly you were suggesting. Please clarify, and I will update the profile.

5) I agree 100% that when Rune of Reorgination procs that the rotation should ideally be changed (like we do for RFs), but FD already does a pretty good job of doing that automatically where from a quick assessment I do not see really anything I would change. My thoughts on the 3 possible situations:

- Haste is highest stat: This one is the easiest to model in FD since when the proc occurs, it is mostly modeled as increased haste rating, which is factored into shot cast times. Thus, FD automatically switches to using AI as the focus dump, and the chosen FD rotation should be pretty ideal. The problem with this case is that SS cast time is incrediblly low and the huge loss of crit makes each shots damage greatly reduced.

- Crit is the highest stat: When the trinket procs, we have no haste rating from gear. Thus, the base SS cast time is much longer at the base 1.58s with raid buffs and SF. FD should self adjust pretty well for the slower SS cast time and the lower focus regen and automatically adjust the shot selection accordingly. The situation is very troublesome in the CA phase where that extra crit is mostly wasted since SS and AI are already crit capped and where the loss of haste adversely affects AI cast time once RF wears off.

- Mastery is the highest stat: Since I currently do not see any value to such a build (unless for AoE), I will not dicusss it, but I believe that FD models it sufficiently.

The main problem that I have with this trinket is that we work hard to reforge our gear to get the ideal optimization of the stats. While it is true that you can change the stats some amount and see relatively little change in DPS, when you totally clear out 2 of the stats in favor of 1, the situation is unbalanced and definitely a DPS loss.

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...

2) Concerning the limits on the profile, for the most part I tried to specify that in the Fixed Settings area. In there, I chose to set Skull Banner and Stormlash Totem to zero. The reason was somewhat arbitrary considering that this is a max DPS case, but I left those off since those are specific buffs provided only by a single class or spec that not every 10-man raid will have included.

3) Concerning the Thunderforged gear, good point on its rarity and the very small odds that anyone will have all the possible Thunderforged gear. I did not consider it when quickly making this profile. However, what reasonable limits would your propose? Use no Thunderforge gear? Limit the number of Thunderforge items?

4) As I stated in the post, I am pretty busy at the moment and just quickly formed this profile to get the ball rolling with knowing that there should be room for improvement. Your note seemed to indicate some changes that could be made (beyond the buffs), but I was unclear on what exactly you were suggesting. Please clarify, and I will update the profile.

5) I agree 100% that when Rune of Reorgination procs that the rotation should ideally be changed (like we do for RFs), but FD already does a pretty good job of doing that automatically where from a quick assessment I do not see really anything I would change. My thoughts on the 3 possible situations:

Simc "optimal_raid" provides all bufs, since 25-man progression groups will have that; hence it presumes 2 warriors and 2 shamans. I mostly wanted to mention that so that people know what simc numbers are based on when comparing with FD.

The profiles specify no random thunderforged. Heroic Ra-den only drops thunderforged loot, hence his is allowed. Allowing 1 piece of non-Ra-den loot would also not be useful since one cannot really plan for it.

I don't have recommendations for the profile yet; the clone of the quick profile I use in simc (which does not use the reorigination trinket) benefited from different settings, but it's both a different profile and that experimentation was before we found and fixed some bugs in both simc and FD. Simc was applying the steady focus buff to haste (and so focus regen and RPPM), and FD was not applying enough haste (and had old coefficient for capacitive primal). The two are much more in line now.

The Rune trinket looks most challenging for MM because of the issues you mentioned. I wonder whether whether it would be a win to have two weapons, with stats reforged so that one weapon ensures selecting haste during CA and the other ensures selecting crit outside of CA. I think simc can support weapon swapping, so we can see whether it's worthy of the effort.

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Simc "optimal_raid" provides all bufs, since 25-man progression groups will have that; hence it presumes 2 warriors and 2 shamans. I mostly wanted to mention that so that people know what simc numbers are based on when comparing with FD.

The profiles specify no random thunderforged. Heroic Ra-den only drops thunderforged loot, hence his is allowed. Allowing 1 piece of non-Ra-den loot would also not be useful since one cannot really plan for it.

The Rune trinket looks most challenging for MM because of the issues you mentioned. I wonder whether whether it would be a win to have two weapons, with stats reforged so that one weapon ensures selecting haste during CA and the other ensures selecting crit outside of CA. I think simc can support weapon swapping, so we can see whether it's worthy of the effort.

Concerning the buffs, I think that I will keep it as I currently have it. This way SimC results can be more tuned to 25-man and this thread to 10-man. Plus, if any individual wants to see the results with the buffs, it is an easy modification for them to make.

Concerning the Thunderforged gear in the profile, I just checked and all 5 pieces are available off Ra-don according to MMO Champions.

Great idea on the weapon swapping possibility for rune.

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It's up to you whether or not you want to include Thunderforged in the criteria. However, from a 25-man guild perspective, we've been seeing an average of 2 Thunderforged drops per boss in ToT on normal. There was one boss that had zero Thunderforged, and we've seen up to 3 on a boss (and that was equally as unique as 0).

In case you didn't realize, Thunderforged can also drop on coins. I received two pieces of Thunderforged from coins over the past two weeks: a trinket and cloak. That being said, it's obviously random, but Wowprogress did track the Thunderforge drops that were given to players during the first week and came out to the following percentages:

Thunderforged item rates: 10-man vs 25-man :: WoWProgress - World of Warcraft Rankings

10-man

Guilds killed the first boss: 9616

Items equipped: 19123

Thunderforged items equipped: 2228

Thunderforged items percentage: 11.7%

25-man

Guilds killed the first boss: 1326

Items equipped: 7907

Thunderforged items equipped: 2033

Thunderforged items percentage: 25.7%

I personally see no reason to exclude the Thunderforges from the criteria.

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Legendary meta gem and Bad Juju trinket. The following only have Thunderforged from Ra-den.

Max BM DPS: 176,664.74

Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Max MM DPS: 175,782.08

Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Max SV DPS: 172,919.63

Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Thunderforged Max DPS:

Replacing the above heroics with heroic thunderforges yields the following:

Thunderforged BM DPS: 181,516.89

Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Thunderforged MM DPS: 173,621.92 (this seems incorrect and is less than the regular heroic gear equivalents and should go up once the spreadsheet is updated for whatever item is messing things up)

Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Thunderforged SV DPS: 178,599.23

Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Edit: All of these should go up by over 1k dps per profile when the prismatic slot is added for the ranged Heroic Thunderforged Durumu's weapon. Right now, the spreadsheet does not include this slot on any heroic thunderforged items, and I assume this will eventually be corrected. When the spreadsheet is updated, I'll update the profile to include the +160agi gem in the weapon.

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Edit: All of these should go up by over 1k dps per profile when the prismatic slot is added for the ranged Heroic Thunderforged Durumu's weapon. Right now, the spreadsheet does not include this slot on any heroic thunderforged items, and I assume this will eventually be corrected. When the spreadsheet is updated, I'll update the profile to include the +160agi gem in the weapon.

I've fixed the weapons missing the prismatic sockets- I just didn't realize I'd forgotten to put them in until I saw your message (I'm basically just adding them manually to any weapon that's supposed to have one).

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I've fixed the weapons missing the prismatic sockets- I just didn't realize I'd forgotten to put them in until I saw your message (I'm basically just adding them manually to any weapon that's supposed to have one).

Thanks and cheers, Rivkah!

Updated values:

BM Thunderforged DPS: 183,135.57

Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

MM Thunderforged DPS: 175,022.66 (something is still internally wrong with this one as it is a direct thunderforged upgrade. My guess is this should read 182k dps. If I get some time this week, I'll try tweaking this later to determine what is throwing the spreadsheet off.)

Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

SV Thunderforged DPS: 180,358.49

Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

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Heroic Thunderforged Rune of Re-Origination doesn't seem to exist on wowhead nor wowdb.

Also, for the BM profile, it sims Troll at ~100 DPS higher than Orc with that item (didn't reforge so Orc lack 1% expertise). Simply removing that trinket and Orc is ~1000 DPS higher than Troll. Is it because that profile has low mastery, because Troll can use berserking when that trinket proc, or something else?

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Heroic Thunderforged Rune of Re-Origination doesn't seem to exist on wowhead nor wowdb.

Also, for the BM profile, it sims Troll at ~100 DPS higher than Orc with that item (didn't reforge so Orc lack 1% expertise). Simply removing that trinket and Orc is ~1000 DPS higher than Troll. Is it because that profile has low mastery, because Troll can use berserking when that trinket proc, or something else?

If I remove the Heroic Thunderforged Rune, I get -17k dps. Was there something you were replacing it with? If you add 319 expertise to the profile and switch it to Orc, you will get 1k+ dps, but it's also a custom addition to the spreadsheet to make the Orc expertise-capped that is not represented via gear, food, or some in game mechanic.

Edit: After tinkering around with trinkets, I have found a new BM profile that increases dps by ~3k and MM slightly (though again, something is still broken in regards to these profiles in MM in the sim). SV drops by ~400dps, so I'll just include the BM profile.

Heroic BM: 177,625.06 (+624)

Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

Heroic Thunderforged BM: 186210.69

Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer

The main change here was in using heroic thunderforged Renataki's Soul Charm rather than the Rune of Reorigination. Everything else is just reforges to get rid of the excess expertise from the new trinket.

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I wrongly focused on Rune trinket. The difference between the 2 races is due to Troll having enough focus to get an extra MoC. Saving focus for MoC bring the 2 races close.

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