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Wrathblood

[Prot] 5.0 - I'm Sexy and I Know it

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I posted this question to Theck over on maintankadin, but I am curious what the rest of the community thinks about this:

All of our simulations are assuming that we are using SotR at every possible interval, as soon as we are able. Let's say hypothetically, that we don't care about DPS as a tank and am only concerned with my overall damage intake to smooth and reduce the amount of damage I take and amount of healing I need.

Would pooling to 5 (but not wasting HoPo) and timing as many SotR's as possible to the actual swing (be it autoattack swing timer, or large physical damage attacks) decrease the damage we take even further and thus change our gearing strategies?

I think you've got a good point on selective use of ShotR to get the most out of it vs. spamming it like it was TV. However, routine use of it (including the timing of ShotRs to coincide with boss swings) is going to give the same or more uptime than pooling HoPo and using it as a "cooldown" throughout the fight.

On that note, though, I'd like to comment that pooling DOES have a great time for use over spamming: tank swaps. Thinking of Feng and Garajal in particular here, but when the other tank gets 2-3 stacks (whatever your guild calls swaps for on Feng), I make sure I have 5 HoPo and a HPGenerator pooled, then taunt and ShotR 2x back to back to provide those 6 sec's of healer transition time. Same principle on Garajal when Banishment happens.

This is probably pretty obvious to a lot of people, but it def helps with allowing healers to wind-up their efficient heals during tank swaps and hopefully allow for more mana conservation by the healer corps.

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When it comes to gemming, there's more to parry vs strength than just the avoidance value of each. The parry gem of course gives more avoidance, but the strength gem can do double time in Ret pieces and helps contribute a bit towards WoG healing and SS shielding. Compared to the numbers vengeance gives it probably won't be noticed that much, but the same can be said of the extra parry too. 320 parry is roughly .36% versus the .176% from 160 strength after Kings as well as increased damage and healing.

On pure prot pieces I'd probably be gemming expertise in my red slots. Depending on socket bonuses I can also see reforging out of expertise on items only to add it back via gems. With the latest bug concerning challenge mode gear scaling I'd also avoid reforging into expertise or hit if I was doing those runs.

Theck's simulations look like they cover swings pretty well, otherwise he wouldn't get such results from the 2-7 swing tests. For those who don't have a swing timer addon, Quartz is the most well known because it's been around since BC if I recall correctly.

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Would pooling to 5 (but not wasting HoPo) and timing as many SotR's as possible to the actual swing (be it autoattack swing timer, or large physical damage attacks) decrease the damage we take even further and thus change our gearing strategies?

As I replied over at MT, this has no effect on the simulations. I'm using a 1.5-second boss swing timer, so SotR always covers exactly 2 attacks. It's essentially like simulating a player that is timing his casts to boss swings. The results would be slightly different for a player who does this poorly on a boss with a longer swing timer, but they should be about the same for a player that's carefully timing their casts.

Also, I still think you're giving Blizzard too much credit. :P They're good game designers, but I highly doubt their internal testing and design looks at the sort of spike metrics I worked up. I'm sure they look at spike damage to make sure no tank is severely at risk, because the 25% health buff is evidence of that design consideration. I think it's optimistic (at best) to assume that they thoroughly test each secondary stat to see how that metric changes. Especially given the number of classes/specs they have to design, it's unlikely they have time to do anything that thorough for individual classes.

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I believe I will be revered with Shado-pan this coming Tuesday. What is the opinion on the strength vs stam trinkets that I can buy for 1750 valor? I don't know which to buy.

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Stam is hard to quantify in that you need enough to not be burst down, after which its useless. Only you (and your healers) know where that level is.

Both are good. Our "core" tanking stats are Hit/Exp/Mastery/Haste so while STR isn't one, neither is STAM, yet both are useful stats for us. And the on-use for both (Haste and Mastery) are also quite good (though its probably worth noting that there are many situations in this tier in which you could really get a lot of leverage out of a Mastery on-use. Anytime you've got HA up, or going into a tank swap with 5 HoPo, etc. These are situations that make a big burst of Mastery very powerful).

Really it depends on your alternatives. In a universe in which I could only pick one of the two, I'd personally go with the STR one. Not so much because its better than the STAM one as because it would be the better fit for me. I've already got the Relic and all three Brewmaster tanking trinkets. While the VP trinket is certainly better than the Brewmaster ones and is probably roughly comparable to the Relic, I've already got an embarrassment of riches from which to choose for STAM trinkets.

So while adding the VP trinket would be a gain, for me it would be a small gain compared to, say, picking up the VP head from Shado-Pan, a slot at which I'm lacking.

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With Windsong now proccing from nearly everything and boosted by your highest haste value, does this push the enchant past Colossus? With Seal of Insight active, you've also got an additional +10% spell haste to consider for how often it procs. While crit is worthless for survivability, haste and mastery are still very, very strong stats.

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This is an excellent point on something I've been remiss on correcting (the list is starting to pile up. Stupid dailies are taking way too much of my time).

For the record, Colossus kind of sucks. ~10k absorbs are trivial in current content and the proc rate isn't nearly high enough to make up for it. Windsong just keeps looking better and better, but River's Song and, surprisingly, Dancing Steel both look attractive on paper as well.

Colossus needs a buff to be considered among the serious options for tanking, but I'm not yet sure which of the other three will be the winner.

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Just a quick clarification - Is CS only used in place of HotR due to the fact it does more damage? I mean by that if damage was not a consideration then a simplified rotation would be HotR - Fill - Fill - HotR ...

I can't help but wonder why blizz didn't just up the damage on HotR for prot to a place where CS sits and keep CS just for Ret.

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Just a quick clarification - Is CS only used in place of HotR due to the fact it does more damage? I mean by that if damage was not a consideration then a simplified rotation would be HotR - Fill - Fill - HotR ...

I can't help but wonder why blizz didn't just up the damage on HotR for prot to a place where CS sits and keep CS just for Ret.

HotR breaks CC, and CS does not. This is crucial for challenge modes, if nothing else.

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Noone has pointed out the fact that with the new loot system world bosses will always give us automatically loot with dodge-parry-mastery on it and not hit-expertise-haste as well as when using a coin for extra loot. Plus we will have to compete with all the plate dps classes for loot. Im having a bad feeling already that it will be hard to gear towards the optimal build.

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Noone has pointed out the fact that with the new loot system world bosses will always give us automatically loot with dodge-parry-mastery on it and not hit-expertise-haste as well as when using a coin for extra loot. Plus we will have to compete with all the plate dps classes for loot. Im having a bad feeling already that it will be hard to gear towards the optimal build.

Gear with dodge/parry/mastery isn't worthless. The majority of my current gear set has one of hit/expertise and one of dodge/parry on pretty much every piece. Obviously, since it's mostly pre-raid gear, it's far from optimal and I'm sure it could be done better, but even though it's sub-optimal, it's still a viable upgrade strategy until we can get to the pieces we really want.

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Stam is hard to quantify in that you need enough to not be burst down, after which its useless. Only you (and your healers) know where that level is.

I still disagree about stamina ever being useless in progression. More buffer means less panicky healers means more mana efficient healing. In fact, I still maintain that stamina is a better mana-saving stat for your healers than TDR stats (dodge, parry, mastery). The point at which stamina becomes truly useless doesn't occur until long after the content is irrelevant (i.e., a few tiers of raiding later).

Colossus needs a buff to be considered among the serious options for tanking, but I'm not yet sure which of the other three will be the winner.

I use Colossus. If the new RPPM mechanics work as I understand them, you should get ~2 procs per minute from Windsong. Some of the time, those procs will be useful (haste/mastery). But you could also get back-to-back Crit procs, which are useless for survivability.

Colossus may be a little weak, but it's a reliable weak. And note that 1500 mastery rating is 2.5%, or only 5k damage shaved off of a 200k attack (but you also get some block% of course). In practice, Colossus probably absorbs more damage than Windsong mitigates. It might be less than 2 mastery procs in a minute, but it's a lot more than 2 crit procs in a minute. If anything, I'd say Colossus is the "smoothness" option - small but frequent bubbles to take the edge off of spike events.

In fact, I think you could make a good argument for the Living Steel Weapon Chain (200 expertise) over Windsong as far as reliable survivability is concerned.

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In fact, I think you could make a good argument for the Living Steel Weapon Chain (200 expertise) over Windsong as far as reliable survivability is concerned.

Ooooo, I can do the (napkin) math on this one:

200 passive Expertise vs chance at Mastery

Windsong is 2 RPPM. Any given proc has 1:3 chance it's Mastery. Proc lasts for 12 seconds (out of 60, using the Per Minute part of PPM). So 2 / 3 * 12 / 60 * 1500 = 200 average per minute.

Thus 200 passive Expertise vs 200 averaged Mastery. Based on the OP Expertise > Mastery, so the Chain sounds like a win over Windsong. Both are technically spiky gains - Expertise only helps prevent the spike that would have happened on a parry, while Windsong gets the full 1500 for periods of time (not a mathed constant average) - so I think the conclusion is relatively solid. Extra mark against Windsong. It could proc at a 'useless' time when boss will not be attacking for a period of time, while Expertise always happens when you need it (by preventing a parry that you needed prevented).

I think it would be possible to math a direct comparison between the damage smoothing of a Chain and the absorbs of Colossus, presuming no Expertise is wasted (since it's unlikely anyone could, at least presently, reach Hard cap on Expertise even with the chain). Theck, would your modeling tools be able to perform such a comparison? It's definitely out of napkin range.

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Wrath,

I was curious what your thoughts were on this set of tier. I noticed you have a piece of ret and a piece of prot, and it made me wonder... Are the clearly superior stats on the ret set worth losing the set bonuses on the prot set? Or did you just happen to get a ret piece off a world boss?

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I still disagree about stamina ever being useless in progression. More buffer means less panicky healers means more mana efficient healing. In fact, I still maintain that stamina is a better mana-saving stat for your healers than TDR stats (dodge, parry, mastery). The point at which stamina becomes truly useless doesn't occur until long after the content is irrelevant (i.e., a few tiers of raiding later).

I use Colossus. If the new RPPM mechanics work as I understand them, you should get ~2 procs per minute from Windsong. Some of the time, those procs will be useful (haste/mastery). But you could also get back-to-back Crit procs, which are useless for survivability.

Colossus may be a little weak, but it's a reliable weak. And note that 1500 mastery rating is 2.5%, or only 5k damage shaved off of a 200k attack (but you also get some block% of course). In practice, Colossus probably absorbs more damage than Windsong mitigates. It might be less than 2 mastery procs in a minute, but it's a lot more than 2 crit procs in a minute. If anything, I'd say Colossus is the "smoothness" option - small but frequent bubbles to take the edge off of spike events.

In fact, I think you could make a good argument for the Living Steel Weapon Chain (200 expertise) over Windsong as far as reliable survivability is concerned.

Oh, sure, its not *truly* useless, I was just making a point. Burst, particularly in combination with other draws on the healers' attention, doesn't happen in nice binary chunks, its a distribution of potential outcomes. Stacking more STAM just gradually reduces the chance of a "tank threatening" level of incoming damage happening (since each 1 point of STAM minutely reduces the % of your health done by each attack).

But at some point you're just not dying anymore, and stacking additional STAM moves you from a 98% chance of survival to a 99% chance of survival and those itemization points are better spent in other ways. As we've both noted, this will vary from tank to tank. I have no doubt a 25-man tank will want more STAM than a 10-man tank. On heroic Stone Guard, I'd be surprised if I ever dropped below about 35% health on our kill. If I had another useful option, I'd probably swap a Brewfest STAM trinket for it. On Feng, however, I'd probably go back to STAM.

On Colossus, well, hmm. How much is it absorbing? 10k per shield? I'm going to have to disagree with you and also on the Weapon Chain.

First, remember that Windsong procs can proc both Mastery AND Haste in addition to Crit. Certainly, the Crit is... well, ok, not useless since you're getting dps out of it, but close. But ~13% uptime on Mastery and Haste is worth ~200 of each of those stats. If you went with Weapon Chain, you should really be hard capping Exp, so you're basically just saving 200 Exp that you'd then be regemming or reforging into another stat, probably Haste or Mastery. So you're basically accepting half as much Haste or Mastery to get it a steady form instead of a proc-driven bursty form. I agree that its "steadier" but its literally half as good (worse, really, because you're getting slight value from the Crit).

Second, as you say, Mastery's ShoR component will save 5k damage per melee swing that SHoR is up for plus another 1.5k on every melee swing (thanks to block) during the period of time that the Mastery buff itself is up. On average, you'll have Mastery up for ~8 seconds of every minute. During those 8 seconds, you'll probably have 3 seconds of ShoR uptime. Lets say you get 50% use out of those 8 seconds due to tank swaps or other mechanics. That means you'll probably get 1 melee swing during your ShoR uptime and perhaps 2 total melee swings, giving you ~8k damage saved.

Assuming you're running with SoI, Haste will generate roughly the same amount of value (probably slightly higher since its a little less dependent on taking melee hits), plus you'll be inflicting additional damage from the Haste and Crit.

I'll concede that Colossus is marginally steadier, but not by much. Twice per minute you get to save 1/5 of one second's worth of incoming dps and it happens randomly. With Windsong you could have a warning pop up, letting you know its proc'ed Mastery and thus blow your pooled ShoR then or push back a tank swap by a couple seconds or something.

So, I see your argument, but I still don't think Colossus is competitive.

Edit - The Tier question is an interesting one because the itemization for this tier is interesting which I'll get to in a second. The Prot 2 piece bonus is lackluster while the 4 piece bonus is amazing, so its really only a question at the 2 piece level.

I've been going with a Prot piece and Ret piece because, heh, that's what RNG saw fit to give me. However, just recently I got the Prot legs. I've been a little slow to shift to them because our guild only has one maxed out LW and he's a little busy with requests for leg enchants. But after a good bit of thinking about it, I've decided that I am indeed switching to them.

Two of the five Ret tier pieces are arguably better itemized for tanking than their Prot counterparts (Head where Ret - Hit/Mastery vs Prot - Parry/Exp, and Leg where Ret - Exp/Mastery vs Prot - Dodge/Mastery) and at a third piece, Shoulder, the itemization for both is excellent (Exp/Mastery for Prot vs Hit/Haste for Ret). The Head and Chest Ret pieces both have Crit making them poor for tanking.

So:

Chest and Hands - Prot pieces clearly better

Legs and Head - Ret pieces clearly better

Shoulder - Ret and Prot both excellent

Our 2 piece bonus is a little lackluster (it cuts the cooldown on Ardent Defender from 3 minutes to 2 minutes. If you use AD on cooldown, it will increase your uptime from 5.6% to 8.3%, roughly a 0.5% damage savings, plus slightly better chance of your bacon being saved if things go badly wrong), but I believe it is enough to make up the gap. Assuming 40% uptime on ShoR, you'd need perhaps 400 Mastery just to get 0.5% damage reduction against incoming melee attacks, to say nothing of 0.5% against *all* incoming damage.

Comparing the 2 tier pieces at the best slots for Ret, Legs and Head, we'll consolidate stats into 4 categories: Accuracy (hit/exp), Avoidance (STR/Dodge/Parry), "good" tanking stats (Haste/Mastery) and Stamina. So, netting the numbers out and reforging towards Mastery/Haste for both sets, we get:

Prot - +360 Stamina, +602 Avoidance

Ret - +390 Accuracy, +515 Mastery/Haste

The Ret set has slightly more itemization points because of how its stats are allocated and the allocation of stats seems clearly more attractive overall. But there isn't 400 Mastery worth of difference there and its not by enough to make up for even the lackluster 2 piece bonus. And this is the strongest case that can be made for using Ret gear instead of Prot.

The Prot 4 piece bonus is 10% more damage reduction to ShoR and +10% healing on WoG. Not only is this spectacular, the 4th and 5th pieces of Ret tier have Crit so you wouldn't want to use them anyway.

That having been said, I'll admit that the synergy between the 4 piece Ret tier and Sanctified Wrath is oddly alluring. I assume 4 piece Prot would win handily in tanking value (though I admit I have not run the numbers), but having 30+% uptime on Avenging Wrath along with sub 3 second CD on Judgment (plus, presumably Long Arm of the Law) would be phenomenal. At some point late in this tier I'm going to be playing around with that.

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It is important to consider offset pieces as well when considering the value of the prot 4 piece as well. There is an item that has only hit/exp/mast/haste in every slot, so the prot tier is not a clear choice. The gear set that forsakes all the tier bonuses is probably worth at least taking a look at.

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It is important to consider offset pieces as well when considering the value of the prot 4 piece as well. There is an item that has only hit/exp/mast/haste in every slot, so the prot tier is not a clear choice. The gear set that forsakes all the tier bonuses is probably worth at least taking a look at.

For the 2p, maybe. For the 4p though? There's no way perfect stat allocation on off set stuff can make up for the roughly 6000 mastery equivalent that is our 4p.

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It is important to consider offset pieces as well when considering the value of the prot 4 piece as well. There is an item that has only hit/exp/mast/haste in every slot, so the prot tier is not a clear choice. The gear set that forsakes all the tier bonuses is probably worth at least taking a look at.

I checked them out and I'm afraid the Prot tier is the way to go *for equal ilevel gear*. The problem with your thesis is that while we have preferred stats, Blizz has done a really good job of equalizing the value of our stats. Certainly some are a little better or a little worse (and Crit is almost useless), but once you are Hit and Exp capped, Haste and Mastery simply aren't that much better than Dodge and Parry. They *are* better, but the gap isn't wide enough for superior itemization to make up for losing a set bonus.

There are actually only a few slots where the off-tier options for tanking are better itemized than the prot tier pieces. The Prot Hand and Shoulder tier pieces, imperfect as they may be, are in fact in a dead heat with one or more off-tier pieces for being our best itemized gear at those slots. There is nothing clearly better.

At Leg and Head, the Ret tier pieces I describe above are the best itemized tanking pieces at those slots (yes, even with their imperfections, like the Head piece having a bunch of extra STR. They are still clearly the best itemized pieces). The only slot where there's a superior off-tier piece is at Chest where the raid-crafted piece and the Chest off Galleon are more or less tied for being the best options ahead of the Prot and Ret chests.

So at two slots you'd want to use the Prot tier pieces anyway, and the Ret tier pieces aren't even sufficiently superior to the Prot tier pieces to make up for the 2 piece bonus, to say nothing of the amazing 4 piece bonus.

That having been said, at 3 of 5 slots there are indeed superior options available to the Prot tier pieces. So if a set bonus isn't on the line, go for whatever works best. If you have 3 pieces of Prot tier and a superior off-tier (or Ret tier) piece at one of those slots, go ahead and swap out one of the Prot tier pieces for something better, while keeping the best 2 for the 2 piece bonus. However, once you get a hold of that 4th piece of tier you'll want to swap that Prot tier piece back in.

I have not compared 496 tier pieces against 509 off-tier pieces in any detail. But from having glanced at their stat budgets my suspicion is that a pair of well itemized heroic off-tier pieces would indeed be enough better to make up for the 2 piece bonus. Not the 4 piece bonus, though. That 4 piece bonus is going to make gear upgrading tricky. They haven't announced the t15 bonuses have they? Unless there's a big step up in ilevel or the t15 2 piece bonus is really strong for that tier's mechanics, it may not be worth breaking our t14 4 piece bonus even for the t15 2 piece bonus.

Edit - Adding in a somewhat more concise overview of our tier set to the OP, plus I'm fixing a number of typos and other mistakes people have been kind enough to alert me to.

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I think it would be possible to math a direct comparison between the damage smoothing of a Chain and the absorbs of Colossus, presuming no Expertise is wasted (since it's unlikely anyone could, at least presently, reach Hard cap on Expertise even with the chain). Theck, would your modeling tools be able to perform such a comparison? It's definitely out of napkin range.

Actually, it's possible to hard-cap expertise in 470+ gear, provided you've picked up some of the more optimal pieces from valor/drops. I'm at 477 and fairly comfortably over both caps, such that I'm starting to reforge into haste.

Could the modeling tools perform a smoothness analysis on that? Probably, but they don't yet include auto-attacks, which would complicate matters a bit. I'd basically have to code in the PPM mechanics, add a swing timer, and add tracking for the different buff types. I don't really have time at the moment to do all of that and test it thoroughly. I doubt the results would be that significant though - neither effect is particularly large, and in a stochastic simulation like the smoothness one, it may just end up being noise. Shifting 300 of one stat to another doesn't have a huge impact on the results.

I think the weapon chain and Colosus are both better choices than Windsong simply for consistency. None of them have a big impact, but I'd sure as hell rather have absorb bubbles or 200 flat haste (since if you're reaching exp cap, the weapon chain is basically 200 of whatever you would optimally reforge into) than have an unlucky chain of crit procs during a damage-intensive phase of a fight. <10k overkills still happen, and the 200 flat haste is far more DPS over any significant phase than any of Windsong's buffs will give.

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First of all a big big thank you to wrath and theck especially for all the info, calcs, theorycrafting, sims, debates, various calc macros, and so much more, it has kept my passion for palas up and running for a long time. If you ever get around my way, drinks are on me.

Eventhough i will probably have some bigger questions later on first i´d like to ask two small ones, two problems i have been running into and wondering if any here have been experiencing them as well or what.

First i that i have been getting a delay on HotR quite often, i dont have accurate timing on the delay but mostly ranging from around 0.5ish second up to about 1.5ish-2 seonds delay. It has not been making much trouble in mv so far as it does not keep me from hving upitme of weakened blows and such but it does frustrate me a bit and has on occasion been annoying when having 2 guards on first mv boss. And well its more of problem in 5mans with trash and such. Have any of you been running into delay on hotr when there ha been no delay on other abilities ?

The second problem i already posted on the priest forum and got a answer there but i´d like to ask it here as well if thats allright.

It regarding Guardian spirit and the "cheat death" component of if not working when cast on me or our ot. It has been problematic since sometime in ds. It was suggested on the priest forum that it might just be timing, that the cast doesnt come early enouggh eventhough it goes on cd. But in my logs (sadly just ingame) the cast has come before the initial killing blow on more then one occasion but still it doesnt kick in and work. Might it just be that servers read the cast sequence differently to how it is shown in the ingame log ? or is this something that any of you have been running into as well ?

The gs doesnt work if the hit is in excess on 200% of the targets max health but that is not that case as we dont take hits exceeding 1 million hp.

And again thank you for the help and info in the past, present and the coming future. Greatly appreciated! Drinks on me.

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Actually, it's possible to hard-cap expertise in 470+ gear, provided you've picked up some of the more optimal pieces from valor/drops. I'm at 477 and fairly comfortably over both caps, such that I'm starting to reforge into haste.
It's even possible to reach the Expertise hard cap before those gear levels. It requires fairly agressive gemming, enchanting, re-forging and putting racials to good use, but it's possible even around an avarage item level of 460. Especially if using the weapon chain as well.

Notion about the Mastery vs. Haste question in regards to weapon enchants: There's been some discussion about Windsong vs. Dancing Steel on the rogue forum. As far as I can gather, the proc mechanics of Dancing Steel and River's Song still aren't fully disclosed. However, would it be worthwhile to further investigate and discuss to what extent added weapon enchant procs might decidedly put Haste ahead of Mastery - so as to address the "toss-up" state of Haste vs. Mastery. Or have the benefits of weapon enchants already been deemed too insignificant to ever realistically tip the stat scales?

I'm not sure I'd have the time, nor the math skills, to delve deeper into this niche. However, if considered worthwhile and - as yet - untested, I might have a look.

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Yes, thanks for all the datas you guys provided for us here. I ve tested both the expertise hardcap/haste and the expertise hardcap/mastery build. Its awesome. I took less damage on our kill on HC Stone Guardian last night in 25 man than the other 2 tanks (DKs) and I tanked 2 of the "dogs" at all time while the other tanks only 1-1. Seal of insight is really something what all protpaladins should use with glyph of battle healer specially when progressing/trying to get the FBK. I outhealed all our healers (69k hps). So far so good, but i have a question. I understand that the haste and mastery build gives us nearly the same amount of damage reduction and smoothing out our damage taken. But as i saw we really dont have any problems when taking physical damage. But when we tank bosses with high amount of magical damage (Feng, Elegon), our only source is stamina and self heal. Now mastery buffs our bastion of glory and gives us huge WoGs, not like the haste build. In fact the haste build gives us higher dps but its possible to do 200k+ damage on HC Stone Guardian even with the mastery build (you can find the log on wol). So i think in overall the mastery build is better than the haste. So my question is what do you guys think about the 2 builds from this aspect. Sorry for my english i tryed my best.:) And thanks again for all your hard work and theorycrafting!

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I don't agree with your "mastery>haste" conclusion. First of all, haste will be flat-out better for DPS. So yes, you can do 200k+ DPS on heroic Stone Guard with a mastery build, but you'll still do more DPS with the haste build.

Second, I think your conclusion about mastery being better against magical damage is flat-out wrong. Yes, mastery buffs our Bastion of Glory heal. Which we can only use effectively if we're regularly using SotR, which we would more or less not be using on a boss with a high amount of magical damage. So, in fact, on a boss that does primarily magic damage, mastery is sort of useless.

Haste, on the other hand, gives you more HP generation and thus more WoGs (and if you do happen to be alternating, more BoG buffed WoGs). It also gives you more Seal of Insight procs (so more self-healing) and more Battle Healer healing on the raid. So it has a nonzero advantage on any type of fight where you use WoG, which makes it strictly superior to mastery.

Third, I think that Feng is a very poor example of a boss with high magical damage. Most of his magical damage is not dangerous to the tank - it's either a slow DoT or relatively weak compared to our health, and much of it is negated by the fight mechanics (Nullification Barrier or interrupts). What does kill you on Feng is his melee, specifically the double melee attacks during the shield phase. He will hit you twice for around 200k damage within 0.1 seconds fairly consistently through that phase, and in my experience this is the only part of that fight that actually endangers the tank. So I would argue that Feng is the textbook example of a boss with hard-hitting physical damage.

Being able to have SotR up for every other "double attack" makes a huge difference in how much spike damage you take, and subsequently in your healer's panic level and mana expenditure. Feng is one of the best examples of a boss where timing SotR casts carefully makes a huge difference, because a good tank can cycle cooldowns and SotR coverage to make sure they never take an unmitigated double attack. The haste build gives you more access to SotR, making it far easier to coordinate that coverage (SotR, SotR, cooldown for 8-10s, repeat).

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Notion about the Mastery vs. Haste question in regards to weapon enchants: There's been some discussion about Windsong vs. Dancing Steel on the rogue forum. As far as I can gather, the proc mechanics of Dancing Steel and River's Song still aren't fully disclosed. However, would it be worthwhile to further investigate and discuss to what extent added weapon enchant procs might decidedly put Haste ahead of Mastery - so as to address the "toss-up" state of Haste vs. Mastery. Or have the benefits of weapon enchants already been deemed too insignificant to ever realistically tip the stat scales?

I'm not sure I'd have the time, nor the math skills, to delve deeper into this niche. However, if considered worthwhile and - as yet - untested, I might have a look.

If you mean the effect that weapon procs will have on the debate between haste and mastery in general, then it's almost certainly insignificant. They will likely all scale roughly the same with haste, so it will still come down to the individual effects of each weapon enchant.

I do plan on doing enchant modeling eventually just to give us some hard numbers on what exactly each enchant grants. It's not particularly hard to code, it just takes some time. We already have a rough understanding of the other enchant proc mechanics; last time we checked CS/HotR/J/AS/Melee were the only proc triggers for dynamic effects. That said, this was fairly early in beta, so it's possible things have changed; a re-test on the proc triggers would probably be a good idea.

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