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Haileaus

Subtle Ways of Subtlety

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Have we found out if the bleed damage from both Rupt/Garrote are affected by MuS both during its uptime and also after the duration of the buff? I ask because if it is the case that they do gain the 10% buff from MuS for the full duration of the initial application of the bleed even after MuS has fallen off wouldn't it be beneficial to have subterfuge to maximize the benefit of MuS? You should be able to open with Prem/Garrote/Rupt/Ambush...this would set you up to apply SnD after subterfuge falls off and you would maximize MuS and still have the full durtation of FW. I have not tested this so this is pure speculation and may not be correct.

DoTs do not update per-tick with personal buffs. This means that Rupture's damage is based off a snapshot of your current stats/buffs. You could also roll that buffed Rupture for an entire fight back when Eviscerate refreshed Rupture.

However, DoTs do update per-tick with target debuffs.

This doesn't justify using Garrote instead of Ambush, since both benefit equally from the MoS buff. Or does Garrote do more damage now? I'll assume it does not.

I'd imagine Ambush->Ambush->Rupture->Ambush->Hemorrhage during MoS->5pt Slice and Dice->Shadow Dance once FW wears off will be ideal.

NB, this is assuming DoTs and buffs/debuffs work the same way they did in Cataclysm. I haven't been keeping up to date with MoP changes.

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I ran into two problems when I tried to get the numbers on that luckydo:

1) I didn't have the trinket, and I hadn't seen any dummy-smack logs from anyone who had, so I don't know the exact (or even approximate) behavior of the proc.

2) I don't know how to quantify the EP value of DPS. :)

If anyone can help with either/both of those obstacles, I'd be happy to spit out some numbers for it.

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Just did a few tests to verify some things we already know/assumed.

Hemo v. BS damage:

Hemo with bleed does more damage than BS without even taking into account crits.

CT v. Eviscerate damage:

CT does more damage than Eviscerate when a second target is in range, even without the second target having SV up. The primary target had full uptime on SV while each ability was being tested.

The damage of CT was actually comparable to that of Rupture. However, as I did this test on a level 60 target dummy, armor would probably make it so CT is not worth using instead of Rupture until there are 3 targets in range.

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I've heard that Shuriken Toss as a CP-builder works with subtlety as well, not just mutilate. Has anyone tried this?

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Would be worth running some tests. Mastery would quite likely be above haste then in the stat priority, and we'd also need to see if Hemo would still be worth it if BS proves worse than ST.

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I've heard that Shuriken Toss as a CP-builder works with subtlety as well, not just mutilate. Has anyone tried this?

I don't understand that question. Is it implying that Shuriken Toss be used as a cp builder instead of mutilate or dispatch for assassination, or instead of backstab for sub?

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I don't understand that question. Is it implying that Shuriken Toss be used as a cp builder instead of mutilate or dispatch for assassination, or instead of backstab for sub?

Shuriken Toss us already being considered as a combo point generator for Assassination, because of the higher cp/energy ratio than Mutilate. The question remains whether it will be a dps increase for sub as well. I would assume not because Backstab is still a considerable chunk of our damage, but further testing is needed.

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Are there sims or logs that show ST is viable for assassination? If so, it would be worth sharing them in the Assassination thread, because I've seen no mention of it there.

In SimC for T14H geared rogue...

Assassination goes from 116.8k to 102.5k when using ST instead of mutilate

So as not to completely sidetrack the Sub thread...

Sub goes from 116.0k to 112.8k when using ST instead of backstab, but that setup is reforged for haste and the rotation may not be ideal

The action priority lists I used were fairly quick and dirty mods of the existing ones, (I had to tweak places where they were relying on Anticipation talent). It may be possible to improve the sub rotation and reforging/gear to get ST closer to Backstab (or maybe pass it), but I doubt there are enough improvements to be made that could find another 15% in the Assassination rotation with ST (at least according to SimC).

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I haven't checked the sub modeling on SimC extensively (just got it and not used to C++), but my hunch is that the real problem with ST over BS would be the loss of Anticipation. As I discuss in the guide there are a lot of optimizations you can make with Anticipation. Does anyone know what SimC does with Anticipation?

Also quick question about SimC: Where are the damage formulas located?

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The short answer? It's complicated.

The longer answer? They have a centralized system that pulls from their dbc extract ( http://simulationcraft.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/engine/dbc/sc_spell_data.inc ). You might have an easier time reading from https://github.com/dazer/ShadowCraft-Engine/blob/master/shadowcraft/calcs/rogue/__init__.py instead. They're essentially the same information, maybe when I get some free time I'll write something up to explain how it's done a little clearer.

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The only place in the rotation SimC explicitly takes advantage of anticipation is to make sure it gets in an ambush at the end of shadow dance. It does not try to save up combo points during non-buffed stretches of the fight.

the following is the priority list they are currently using for a troll with engineering. If you aren't familiar, it just goes down the action list and does the first one that is possible to do that also has all its conditions met. The exceptions are the pool energy lines. it only pools energy if all the conditions for the next action are met except for the energy requirement.

actions.precombat=flask,type=spring_blossoms

actions.precombat+=/food,type=sea_mist_rice_noodles

actions.precombat+=/apply_poison,lethal=deadly

actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats

actions.precombat+=/virmens_bite_potion

actions.precombat+=/stealth

actions.precombat+=/premeditation

actions.precombat+=/slice_and_dice

actions=virmens_bite_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<40

actions+=/preparation,if=talent.preparation.enabled&!buff.vanish.up&cooldown.vanish.remains>60

actions+=/auto_attack

actions+=/kick

actions+=/shadow_blades

actions+=/pool_resource,for_next=1,extra_amount=75

actions+=/shadow_dance,if=energy>=75&buff.stealthed.down&!target.debuff.find_weakness.up

actions+=/use_item,name=gloves_of_the_thousandfold_blades,if=buff.shadow_dance.up

actions+=/berserking,if=buff.shadow_dance.up

actions+=/pool_resource,for_next=1,extra_amount=30

actions+=/vanish,if=time>10&energy>=45&energy<=75&combo_points<=3&!buff.shadow_dance.up&!buff.master_of_subtlety.up&!target.debuff.find_weakness.up

actions+=/premeditation,if=(combo_points<=3&cooldown.honor_among_thieves.remains>1.75)|combo_points<=2

actions+=/ambush,if=combo_points<=5&anticipation_charges=0

actions+=/slice_and_dice,if=buff.slice_and_dice.remains<3&combo_points=5

actions+=/rupture,if=combo_points=5&dot.rupture.remains<5

actions+=/ambush,if=anticipation_charges<3&buff.shadow_dance.remains<=2

actions+=/eviscerate,if=combo_points=5

actions+=/hemorrhage,if=combo_points<4&(dot.hemorrhage.remains<4|position_front)

actions+=/hemorrhage,if=combo_points<5&energy>80&(dot.hemorrhage.remains<4|position_front)

actions+=/backstab,if=combo_points<4&(cooldown.shadow_dance.remains>7|(cooldown.shadow_dance.remains=0&time<=9))

actions+=/tricks_of_the_trade

actions+=/backstab,if=combo_points<5&energy>80&cooldown.shadow_dance.remains>=2

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Seems that Ambush and Garrote do about the same DPE coming straight from stealth, with Garrote potentially slightly ahead with no sunder armor debuff. FW of course makes Ambush far better DPE. Since Ambush gives more CP it is probably best to use it min-fight. However I'm wondering whether or not Garrote should be used in the first opener, as it applies SV (letting us get SnD and SV up quickly without using sub-5-CP ruptures or SnDs), and the lower energy cost potentially allows more abilities to fit into the MoS/FW window.

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Edit: There are updated EP on Shadowcraft. As they are quite different I would like to see some tests done as to which are better. When I get the chance I'll do these, though if someone else can provide logs that would be greatly appreciated. Of specific peculiarity is the high increase in crit's EP.

The approximate weights in the new Shadowcraft: Agi>>Hit>Crit>Exp>Haste>Mastery

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Quoted from Daegranos:

I can't reply to the thread as I've just made an account but I believe shadowcraft to display wrong EP values in this case.

I've done a small test on dummies with the old ( hit/exp > haste > all) reforges and the new reforges afterwards ( hit/exp > crit > all).

Here are my recount values, With haste i had a nuke of 60k whereas with crit I couldn't get much further than 55k.

It's not much of a proper test I agree but I think it does show that if crit is deemed better in the end it's not by much.

Haste: http://i.imgur.com/nElTD.png

Crit: http://i.imgur.com/oM7kW.png

Fight duration was about 3:20 each, just enough to get a full rotation of shadow blades going.

While target dummies aren't generally good for testing actual rogue dps since we like buffs a lot and in the case of sub rely on crits from other raiders, these results definitely seem to indicate that there's something wrong with the current Shadowcraft EP values. It's also worth noting that against a dummy crit gives us more benefit than it does in a raid due to not being able to rely on the raid for HaT procs.

After checking Shadowcraft with no buffs the EP values don't change enough to explain the results against the dummy.

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Does Shadowcraft simulate HaT-Procs correctly after the update?

It's the only Crit-Reliance we have left, so my guess would be that the issue lies within the Simulation of HaT-procs from Group Members.

edit: Observed another funny thing with Shadowcraft, it boosts my DPS when i pick ST over ATCP by 5k. I liked to use ST for a long time now, with a 476 MH and no Set....but now i got 2p T14, and i thought that BS would now outperform ST without a Shadow of a Doubt (DPE). My testing so far concludes that both are still incredibly close, but with ST you miss out on ATCP, so not anywhere near a 5k increase.

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CPs from HAT are calculated independently, at a constant amount. For a raid environment, it's pretty accurate.

Late followup: I see haste being worth more than crit at higher gear levels.

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I have a question about Sanguinary Vein nerf, tooltip just changed to 16% in 5.1, but information about nerf was know long time ago. So when exactly this nerf went live?

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I have a question about Sanguinary Vein nerf, tooltip just changed to 16% in 5.1, but information about nerf was know long time ago. So when exactly this nerf went live?

Shortly after 5.0 if memory serves right. Way before the first MoP Raids.

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Added EP tables based on Shadowcraft for T14, T14 Heroic, and T14 Heroic 2x upgrade.

Note that the value of mastery depends on how many enemies you are facing as finisher damage from CT will be a larger portion of your damage past 2 targets.

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I wanted to try Subtlety on farmed bosses, and especially on Windlord Mal'jarak to see how it performs. I've managed a #32 WoL 10N (poor gear, poor guild) with 158,141 dps.

What I was doing in P1:

  • keep 5 CP Slice and Dice up
  • keep Crimson Tempest up on all targets
  • keep Find Weakness up as often as possible on boss
  • use 5 CP Eviscerate on boss when CT is ticking

That try wasn't the best one (I managed 170k dps when going full CT during P1), so I'm wondering what you guys are doing. I realize most of you probably haven't played Sub on this fight, but given it's farmed there is no waste trying different specs now.

(It felt great not needing to tab-target and keep multiple Ruptures up. I hate that kind of "cleave".)

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Is it better to use FoK as a combo builder in this scenario or continue with single target rotation?

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Btw, In 25man environments the terror of the mists trinket(509) becomes far superior than the dark moon card due to skull banner and crit scaling.

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Btw, In 25man environments the terror of the mists trinket(509) becomes far superior than the dark moon card due to skull banner and crit scaling.

If the proc aligns with the 6 second duration, which is possible on the pull

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I wanted to try Subtlety on farmed bosses, and especially on Windlord Mal'jarak to see how it performs. I've managed a #32 WoL 10N (poor gear, poor guild) with 158,141 dps.

Grats, my rotation is pretty much the same, although I keep rupture and hemo as well on main target and I slack some FoKs, ranked with 137k.

To me sub is way more interesting than the other two specs. Yeah there are a lot of things to keep an eye for and not to mention always being behind the target.

I did both 10 and 25man with sub and probably the most retarded fight is ToES Sha, those panda archers were designed only to completely ignore our spec. Horrible,horrible trying to backstab a target that is in permament whirlind cause the group is collecting orbs.

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