malthrin

World of Logs Analysis (Help me not suck thread)

63 posts in this topic

Forum rule #7 ("Do not beg for hand-holding.") is not in effect for this thread. If you're not happy with your performance and want some advice, post here. Some guidelines:

  • This thread is no exception to the rest of the Forum Rules. Whining, rudeness, ingratitude, and poor grammar will be dealt with harshly.
  • Your post must contain a link to a public World of Logs parse. Don't post damage meter screenshots.
  • The parse must be from a 10 or 25 man raid. 5-mans and target dummies are not welcome.
  • You must be max level (90). We're not about to look over a log from a level 70 Sunwell run.
  • Your profile MUST work. If you tend to change specs/log out in PVP gear please create a character profile through Wowhead or a similar site. If you have two similar specs, indicate which one you were using in the parse.
  • You must give a few sentences regarding what you think your problem is. Are you moving a lot due to fight mechanics? Do you perform some vital secondary role that may impact your rotation? (kiting, interrupting, etc). What is your healing assignment? We can't help you if you don't help us.

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I'm considering expanding this thread to include challenge-mode 5 mans. We'll see if that's a topic that wants class-specific discussion over the next month or two.

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I'm extremely curious about the disparities between these two logs. This is me on Spirit Kings (10) last night; I ranked top 10 or something for Prot Pallies:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

This is the number 1 ranked guy for that fight:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

His consecrates are hitting for 4 times as much as mine on average. His AS are hitting 3 times harder than mine on average. Can anyone explain these massive differences? He took a bit more damage than me, so possibly had more vengeance, but I can't imagine it would account for that large of a difference.

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I'm extremely curious about the disparities between these two logs. This is me on Spirit Kings (10) last night; I ranked top 10 or something for Prot Pallies:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

This is the number 1 ranked guy for that fight:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

His consecrates are hitting for 4 times as much as mine on average. His AS are hitting 3 times harder than mine on average. Can anyone explain these massive differences? He took a bit more damage than me, so possibly had more vengeance, but I can't imagine it would account for that large of a difference.

Maybe I'm missing something (I'm by no means an expert on WoL), but the major difference I'm seeing is his block of a Massive Attack for 476k, with an absorb of ~911k. This seems to be after the 9-28 vengeance overkill fix (I can only find an Oct-3 date), but maybe the huge jumpstart of vengeance might account for some of it.

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I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out why I do considerably low dps.

Here are some logs of mine:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

And here is my armory:

Zyphen @ Frostwhisper - Community - World of Warcraft

The rotation I follow is pretty much: Use every HP-generating spell on CD (Exo>HoW>J>CS). TV when I have 5 HP (or as a filler). I try to keep Inquisition up as well.

For my cooldowns I pop GoAK for 10 sec, then wings + holyavenger. (Execution Sentence when I got my Inq up).

I stack haste, got my hit/exp cap.

I really have no clue why Im ending up so low. I don't actually move a lot on any fight whatsoever.

Thanks in advance,

Zyphen.

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Zyphenz - The primary thing I'm seeing is a lack of AoE. DS pulls ahead of TV on two targets, as does Light's Hammer, and on Stone Dogs you should just about always have two dogs together to hit.

A note about ES: Since it takes a snapshot of your stats, you're better off popping it later into your GoAK use, to have as close to full stacks as possible, and make sure to use it during Wings definitely. The Ret thread has recently has some good comments about the opening sequence, and how things line up after that. Somewhere around page 8-9.

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Zyphenz - I didn't look at the AOE-impacted fights, since Allysia already analyzed those. On the single-target non-gimmick (Feng and Spirit Kings) I'm not seeing your DPS as 'considerably low' based on the gear on your armory. Low to mid 50s is reasonable for the gear you're currently wearing.

Only comment I would make is you could probably get more mileage replacing your Coaster with something else, including the Dragonling trinket. The on-crit mechanic of Coaster and the fact it's AP instead of Str make it weaker for Ret than the ilevel suggests. A Dragonling with 600 Hit, Expertise, and Haste nets 1800 secondary stats, compared to 904 and an infrequent AP proc. Then move to a real trinket when one drops or you decide to spend the Valor on the Shado-Pan one.

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Expanding on what Exemplar said, the heroic [iTEM]77997[/iTEM] is actually better than the coaster for many specs. If you have it or can obtain it easily I would recommend simulating it in SimCraft to see if it would translate to a gain for you. The same is true for many of the heroic dungeon trinkets since the coaster really is that bad.

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The rotation I follow is pretty much: Use every HP-generating spell on CD (Exo>HoW>J>CS).

CS should be above J in your priority. This is a sizable dps loss.

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CS should be above J in your priority. This is a sizable dps loss.

I dont think this is true though. Just look at my (pretty old) logs.

Crusader Strike:

Average Hit: 27291

Average Crit: 57217

Judgment:

Average Hit: 41774

Average Crit: 87785

p.s. Thanks for the feedback guys. Did a lot of gearing upgrades and now my dps seems fine :).

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CS is used before J because CS has a shorter cooldown. If J were put first there would be fewer CS and more dead spots during play, thus leading to lower DPS by virtue of fewer abilities used and less HoPo being generated which means less TV. There is a reason SimCraft has CS above J, and testing J>CS in it will show why.

It's also because of cooldown issues that HoW should be used before Exo. Delaying Exo is not as big of a hit as delaying HoW.

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With HoW vs Exo there is also the fact that HoW hits quite a bit harder than Exo after mastery is factored in.

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With HoW vs Exo there is also the fact that HoW hits quite a bit harder than Exo after mastery is factored in.

And the same for CS vs. J.

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CS doesn't hit quite a bit harder than J, it hits slightly higher at high gear levels.

In T14H BiS, CS is 46326 DPET vs J 45880 DPET. HoW is 132162 DPET vs Exo 63399 DPET.

For my last 25N Spirit Kings kill, HoW was 145391 DPE vs Exo 68316.5 DPE while CS was 46023 DPE vs J 53088.5 DPE.

Factor of 2 difference between HoW/Exo vs CS below J.

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I want to see if more experienced eyes than mine can find any flaws in my performance even though it seems decent right now.

My armory.

Logs from our night of normal HoF.

We have no specific assignments on the fights that were logged so I am healing where I feel its appropriate. For example; on Vizier, raid during force and verve, random idiots during attenuation, those taking damage after mind control or simply tanks throughout the encounter.

I feel like sometimes I hold onto my cooldowns for a bit too long in anticipation of having to use them during a situation requiring elevated throughput in some way. I could probably also get better use out of Holy Radiance by always choosing the best target to cast it on more quickly.

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On the CS vs J comparison: I often have J come up just a tiny bit before CS. If I cast J first, following the concept of "hit whatever comes up first", they will continually clash together, with CS being delayed. So in this specific situation, I wait the 1/10th of a second and cast CS first and go on my merry way until they clash again a little bit later. I just want quick confirmation that going with my gut here is the correct move.

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On the CS vs J comparison: I often have J come up just a tiny bit before CS. If I cast J first, following the concept of "hit whatever comes up first", they will continually clash together, with CS being delayed. So in this specific situation, I wait the 1/10th of a second and cast CS first and go on my merry way until they clash again a little bit later. I just want quick confirmation that going with my gut here is the correct move.

It is. Has been pointed out in both the prot and ret forums before. CS > J, even though CS hits for less hard.

The cooldown of J is 6s, CS is 4.5. A GCD is 1.5s. I'm leaving haste out of the equation here since it lowers the cooldown AND global cooldown of both abilities (thus cd on CS will always be 3 GCDs, the one from J always 4 GCDs).

Because of this, when J and CS clash in your rotation, and you choose to do J first and right after that CS, CS will happen 1.5s later than your J, and thus they will both have 4.5s left meaning that 2 fillers later the 2 abilities will clash again.

By doing J > CS again, you are using CS on an effective cooldown of 6s (and judgment too).

Putting CS in front of J will result in less clashes and thus more total casts over a fight and less empty GCDs.

However, i'm not sure if there are exceptions to this, if you are generating your 5th Holy power on that clashed GCD (either with J or with CS), the 2 options will turn out something like this:

CS > 5HoPo TV > J > CS > ...

or

J > 5HoPo TV > CS > ? > J > CS > ...

Someone of the ret-math geniuses will have to figure out which would be generaly better, since Exo and HoW (during AW/execution range) have to be taken into account as well.

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Has anyone factored double jeopardy into J vs CS arguement?

This glyph proves useful for a few fights in MSV (guardians, gara, elegon, will of emperor)

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CS v J - the simple form

Both CS and J are off CD. You can use either.

Scenario one: J before CS.

[table=head]GCD|Usage|Conflict?

1|J|Yes

2|CS|No

3|Something|No

4|Something|No

5|J|Yes

6|CS|No

7|Something|No

8|Something|No[/table]

Continue to prioritize J and you delay CS by one GCD every single time (1/3 of a CS). In 8 GCD you had 2 CS and 2 J.

Scenario two: CS before J.

[table=head]GCD|Usage|Conflict?

1|CS|Yes

2|J|No

3|Something|No

4|CS|No

5|Something|No

6|J|No

7|CS|No

8|Something|No[/table]

Same 8 GCD and you've managed 3 CS and 2 J. You delayed J only once (1/4 of a J).

Simple math:

Lose 2/3 CS vs lose 1/4 J

Double Jeopardy:

Lose 2/3 CS vs lose (120% * 1/4) J

Lose 2/3 CS vs lose 3/10 J

(Hint - 3/10 is not quite 1/3.)

Minimize your loss - put CS before J.

You eventually have another conflict where both J and CS are off CD, but losing 1/4 of a J infrequently is a lot less of a loss than 1/3 of a CS every 4 GCD.

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I had a few gear questions. I can evaluate gear normally, but these are counter-intuitive results, and I didn't want to clutter the main Ret thread asking about it.

From my sims, I see the 502 H Elegon gloves and the 502 H. Will pants both beating the 509 tier pieces for those slots (barely, ignoring the tier bonus). I also see the 502 H Elegon weapon beating the 496 Shin'ka with a +500 str Sha touched gem.

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Counter-intuitive does not necessarily mean incorrect since there are many things about WoW that aren't "intuitive." For the gloves and pants it shouldn't be surprising or counter-intuitive because the Elegon and Will items are almost perfectly itemized for us with hit/haste. The tier gloves and legs are expertise/crit and expertise/mastery, respectively, so not as strong as the off set items. If you're looking at the item level difference, half a tier is definitely within the boundaries of a better itemized but lower level item trumping a worse itemized but higher level item.

The weapons difference is more difficult to identify, but it's entirely possible that the extra weapon damage on the 502 Starshatter and slightly better itemization with expertise/crit instead of mastery/crit on Shin'ka means it pulls ahead despite the extra strength with the gem on the latter.

If you think there's a legitimate problem with the way SimC (if that's what you're using) evaluates the items then you're always welcome to open an issue at Issues - simulationcraft - World of Warcraft DPS Simulator - Google Project Hosting.

If you're wondering about the results from Exemplar's spreadsheet then ask him about it through PM.

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Weapon dmg is the highest dps increase at the moment with 4set t14 and with good trinkets (lei shi and xuen for example)

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Quick glance at my spreadsheet says that 70%+ of our damage is impacted by weapon damage (autoattack, Seal, Censure, CS, etc). So, yes, weapon damage will vastly alter your overall DPS. Weapons have historically been, and remain, the single largest DPS upgrade for DPSers (casters see a huge jump in Spellpower on their weapons).

Until you have a good weapon I highly recommend burning your bonus coins on Elegon and Sha (or their LFR versions, as necessary). As has been pointed out, a normal Starshatter can beat an LFR Shin'ka (or Heroic Star beat normal Shin'ka), though race has an impact (humans get the expertise bonus on swords).

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