Melthu

[Feral/Guardian] Simple questions + WoL Feedback

61 posts in this topic

New thread for MoP. This is the thread for simple questions regarding Feral and Guardian. If your question applies to one of the existing thread topics, please post it there instead; if you expect to generate significant additional discussion, create a new thread. If, however, you have a simple question that only requires a simple answer and don't see a better place to post it, this is your thread.

Review the forum rules. Though forum rule 7 is relaxed for this thread, that doesn't mean the rest of the rules are. Familiarize yourself with them prior to posting or you will be infracted.

Additionally, we are now allowing you to post your World of Logs parses if you feel stuck with respect to your DPS. Please note you must follow the criteria listed here:

  • The parse must be from a 10 or 25 man raid (non-heroic is fine). 5-mans and target dummies are not welcome.
  • In line with this, you must be max level (90). We're not about to look over a log from a level 70 Sunwell run.
  • Your profile MUST work. If you tend to change specs/log out in PVP gear please create a character profile through Wowhead or a similar site. That way if your issue is related to your gear, help can be provided. If your post is about an alt druid, you absolutely must provide an armory link/character profile or we simply can't help you.
  • You must give a few sentences regarding what you think your problem is. Are you moving a lot due to fight mechanics? Do you perform some vital secondary role that may impact your DPS? (kiting, etc). We can't help you if you don't help us.
  • Tanking or DPS parses are welcome. Be sure to specify your spec and role within the raid.

Please note that this thread is no exception to how the rest of our forums work regarding the fact that no one is obligated to help you. Do not bump, repost, or cry about it. You will be heavily infracted if you do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What are the Guardian Gem Priorities? Are there stat weigh calculations yet?

With the 4T13 bonus I opted for Agi+Stam mix gems and ignored all setbonuses. Forgewise I gept all Mastery there was and forged anything else to Dodge. I didn't care for Expertise or Hit at all!

Mr. Robots standard PvE stat weighs are the following:

1.70 Agility

1.40 Dodge

0.75 Mastey

0.70 Crit

0.40 Haste

0.35 Expertise

0.36 Hit

Why in the world would Haste be above Expertise and Hit? And if Agility is the strongest stat, why would I not go for all-Agility?? For some reason going for Dodge over Mastery doesn't feel right... need some confirmations here ;D

Edit:

On an Item with a red socket with 60 Agi bonus AMR tells me to use Agi+Dodge...

On an Item with a red and a blue socket with 120 Agi bonus... 2x pure Dodge... wth?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Robot is not taking into account Effective Health. Bosses are hitting for 375 - 400k damage and given that guardian lost their Savage Defense bubble, our EH has gone way down. In order for us to reach those survival soft caps, we need a combination of Stamina and Mastery FIRST before going into dodge. For some perspective that means in current MV normal, you need around 500k health and 4-5k mastery in order to reach that soft cap. Crit, Haste, exp and Hit are useful for rage generation but after they buffed Rage from white damage, the value of crit, haste, exp, and hit went down. If you want, the guardian module of Rawr; which can be viewed on these forums; have been updated for the most part for 5.0.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I hope this question is simple enough.

What would be the rotation for max damage rotation on any target?

What would be the rotation for highest burst damage on any target?

The kitty doesn't really have a rotation. It's more of a priority list. You should read the feral guide made by Jazida(available here).

I pasted the prio list here for you:

Single Target

1. Keep Faerie Fire up (if no other armor debuff).

2. Keep Savage Roar up

3. Use Tiger’s Fury on cooldown*

4. User Nature’s Vigil on cooldown*

5. Use Incarnation on cooldown*

6. Use Berserking on cooldown*

7. Use Force of Nature on Cooldown*

8. Use Nature’s Swiftness/Healing touch to generate Wrath of Cenarius procs when GCD will not cause energy cap*

9. Use Predatory Swiftness to generate Dream of Cenarius procs when GCD will not cause energy cap.

10. Ferocious Bite if the boss has less than 25% hp remaining and Rip is near expiring.

11. Ferocious Bite if you have 5 CP and at least 10seconds on Savage Roar andRip

12. Keep 5 combo point Rip up.

13. Keep Rake up

14. Spend Omen of Clarity procs on Thrash if Thrash has less than 6 seconds remaining.**

15. Ravage to generate combo points if Ravage is available (Incarnation)

16. Shred to generate combo points if Shred is available (Behind boss, berserk w/glyph, etc)

17. Use Mangle to generate combo points.

*If there is ahigh-dps burn phase or a bonus damage phase, it may be prudent to save your cooldowns until then.

** As of the writing of the guide, Blizzard just pushed a hotfix increasing thrash damage by 60%. I am still in the process of running simulations on this change, but with decent mastery we may end up maintaining Thrash as a third bleed. Hotfix was reworded to only apply to Thrash(bear). Thrash is still a dps increase to maintain as long as it does not interfere with your normal rotation. It does not generate CP.

AoE: In an AoE phase, your priority system will be something like:

1. Keep Savage Roar up

2. Keep Thrash up on as many targets as possible

3. Swipe to generate Combo Points on main target

4. Typhoon to enrage other melee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've done a ton of math on stat weights and as weird as it seems, when it comes to rage/sec and mitigation haste is better. This is mainly do to so much rage coming from white attacks.

With my current gear I get:

Crit- 0.0432

Agi- 0.0301

Dodge - 0.0252

Haste - 0.0204

Hit* - 0.0182

Exp* - 0.0182

Mastery - 0.0110

Armor- 0.0065

Note: this assumes 100% dodgable or physical damage. I tend to scale my dodge with how much of the inc damage I can dodge.

I've even gone as far as calculating the breaking point in boss fights when SD is better than FR based on your current gear and how much of the incoming damage is "dodgable". Currently for me if 42.26% of the damage is "dodgable" then I will mitigate more damage with SD then I would heal with FR. Remember, this is just the math and not an end all to what button to push.

Stat Weights: Must Tova: Guardian Stat Weights

SD vs FR: Must Tova: Savage Defence vs Frenzied Regen

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqL7oR0xP-VAdDl2dkkyWGJDRzdwNF9UdkZ6UDkxYVE#gid=0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's incredibly interesting to see, Tova, that Crit has such a high relevance compared to anything else. I knew it was at least as useful per point of rating than mastery, but wasn't aware it was this much.

I wonder, though, wouldn't Agility be somewhat effected by the same things that lower dodge rating, considering that part of its usefulness comes from contributing to your total dodge? And even moreso for Mastery, which seems to have little relevance compared to everything else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one thing I found while going through the math was

a. it takes so much agi (about 1200) to get 1% crit and 1% dodge

b. it takes so little crit rating (only ~380) to get 1% crit

c. as for mastery, it takes so much mastery rating (over 2000) to get 1% physical damage reduction

With all this and there being so much off stats on things like gems (plus getting 50% more from bear form) the off stats are just that much more desirable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There has been recent developments so I thought I would update you guys

Crit 0.0416

Agi 0.0296

Dodge^ 0.0251

Hit* 0.0225

Exp* 0.0225

Haste 0.0204

Mastery^ 0.0109

Armor^ 0.0063

*Before caps

^ 100% dodgable or physical damage

Stat Weights: Must Tova: Guardian Stat Weights

SD vs FR: Must Tova: Savage Defence vs Frenzied Regen

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqL7oR0xP-VAdDl2dkkyWGJDRzdwNF9UdkZ6UDkxYVE#gid=0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thought I'd share something Williee on MMO-Champion shared in a bear thread!

#showtooltip Nature's Swiftness

/run SetCVar("autoUnshift",0)

/cast nature's swiftness

/cast healing touch

/run SetCVar("autoUnshift",1)

No shifting NS macro for bear and cats! I've also worked it into Clique. More info on:

A Real Nature's Swiftness Macro!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why is an agility potion while HotW activation better than an int potion? Am i missing something oO

Oher topic.

5CP

SR < 6 sec

RIP <10 sec

FB -> SR -> hope for crit luck to get rip uptime rdy

or

SR -> then save rip uptime

kind regards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agi potions are better during HotW for the simple reason that agi, while feral/guardian, is nature spell power (including healing). If you mouseover int, you can see "Increase Spell Power by 0".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@TheeTova - so on a fight like Stone Guardians where the vast majority of the damage is a bleed (cannot be dodged) how does that affect the stat priorities? Obviously dodge becomes nearly worthless at that point. Do we need to start reforging between fights to min/max per boss?

Instead of reforging based on what % of avoidable damage is able to be dodged on a per boss basis, would it be safer to simply go for an RPS build with hit cap, exp soft cap, crit and mastery and depend on FR/SD from your higher rage generation? Without being on the bleeding edge of progression it doesn't make much sense to have the raid stop and wait for you to reforge mastery > dodge or dodge > mastery between boss fights. Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding your stat priorities around what % of damage is able to be dodged.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want to go with one build, go with RPS and then you can adjust your SD/FR usage based on what percentage of incoming damage is dodgeable (or more likely what level of health you are when you have 60 rage). If dodge at 100% dodgeable attacks is 251 and haste is 204, that would mean there would need to be a fight where more than 80% of the damage is dodgeable. From a really quick look at logs, some fights get close to 80% and possibly a little higher, but the majority are way below that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, how I look at my stat weights is that rps is so much more consistant fight to fight bases. I did reforge to dodge for spiritbinder but kept my crit. Right now though over all I set my dodge and mastery below everything. As there are arguements against it because say rng and the 42 second rule for 100% uptime on SD doesn't make me desire consistant stats like mastery for two main reasons.

1. There is just way too much mastery rating needed to get that passive mitigation (over 2000 rating for 1% damage reduction)

2. That's what cds are for. We have so many things at are disposal and these discussions tend to avoid this. My favourite actually atm is healthstone and NS. I can use either about every 30sec for a nice heal.

Back to the SD vs FR. Check my blog post on it. SDvsFR

Another just quick point, I even weigh FR a bit more than that breaking point especially in 10 mans. You're essentially another healer that can instantly manage your health better than a casting healer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On fights where we're using FR over SD, it should be glyphed if you are doing less than 28.6% of your total healing with FR.

total healing = t, FR healing percent = p

t*p = (t - t*p)*.4

p = .4 - .4p

1.4p = .4

p = .4/1.4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Theetova, I just gave your spreadsheet a bit of a once over, and I had a couple of stat weight questions.

Is there a typo in AGI.B1? It seems to be referencing the Agi/Crit ratio from the first page, not the Agi/Dodge.

The mastery stat weight is derived from the dodge stat weight. Is this saying that 1% more dodge = 1% more mastery? These should not be equal, since going from 42% reduction to 43% reduction is not relatively the same as going from 60% reduction to 61% reduction. I believe this is shortchanging Mastery.

Are all of the rage generation stats weighed by converting them to dodge via Savage Defense?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the agi tab I do reference the stat weight from the Results tab and times that but agi needed per dodge. That is then combined with the stat weight agi gets from providing crit. Should be right.

Could you elaborate on how 42% to 43% less damage is different percentage wise that 60% to 61%. If get hit for 100 have 42 to 43 reduces the damage by 1 and 60 to 61 reduce the dam by one relatively.

Lastly yeah, everything is around this RPS thing and dodge is worked out from SD.

Thanks thefool808, I'm going to incorporate that into the sheet!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How as well thefool808, I'm going to go one step further and incorporate your uptime on glyphed FR based on RPS!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

% - Percent FR Uptime from RPS)

t*p = (t - t*p)*(.4*%)

p = (.4*%) - .4p

1.4p = (.4*%)

p = (.4*%)/1.4

That look right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On the agi tab I do reference the stat weight from the Results tab and times that but agi needed per dodge. That is then combined with the stat weight agi gets from providing crit. Should be right.

Could you elaborate on how 42% to 43% less damage is different percentage wise that 60% to 61%. If get hit for 100 have 42 to 43 reduces the damage by 1 and 60 to 61 reduce the dam by one relatively.

The glyphed SD stuff looks good.

I think Quincunx is right about Agi!B1. It's divided by Results!G15 which is Agi per crit, whereas Results!G16 looks like the correct cell (Agi per dodge). Another way to look at it is both Agi!B1 and Agi!B4 are divided by the same cell. With the change, Agi goes up some, but it doesn't seem to change any gemming choices.

Also, I think what Quincunx is saying is that when the damage is reduced from 61 to 60, that's 1/61 (1.6%) damage reduction, but when the damage is reduced from 40 to 39, that's a 1/40 (2.5%) reduction. At least that's what I think is going on, but I've been looking at it a while and am still confused if it applies to the spreadsheet. It seems to me that any increase in total avoidance can be considered equal independent of its source (whether that be dodge or armor).

Anyways, I think it would be interesting to look at no-dodge, worst case scenario up to some certain "effective health" cap, and then look at normal-case, average dodge past that. Hopefully while also including the percent damage that is mitigatable. Then we could even include stamina in the mix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, updated to Result!G16. Agi jumped huge, still not quite better than crit. Much appreciated.

To me that was push we needed to get Dancing Steel to be the better enchant imo.

Definitely going to do some more napkin math on the dodge armour stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Initial thoughts:

Say right now I take 100dps

What will reduce my damage to 99dps?

1% more dodge

1% more reduction in damage.

It's more of a snapshot at where you are right now. I could have 10% dodge and 12k armour that reduce my damage take by say 10%

Really my incoming dps is much higher than 100dps all I want to know is how to take 1% less.

With how I have it now I use the armour equation and rating per dodge or rating to get enough armour for 1% less damage.

In conclusion, I'm working more of at a snap shot from where you are based on the stat you put in. This is just my initial thoughts and how I set it up. Where to go from here is the open discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you elaborate on how 42% to 43% less damage is different percentage wise that 60% to 61%. If get hit for 100 have 42 to 43 reduces the damage by 1 and 60 to 61 reduce the dam by one relatively.

Sure, lets borrow numbers from the sheet and round them because I like round numbers.

Testbear has 42% dodge (counting savage defense as 30%) and 60% armor reduction. Let's say a boss takes 100 swings at him with 225K raw damage. 58 of those swings hit, and he takes 40% of that 225K (90000) each time for a total of 5.22M taken.

Give Testbear 43% dodge. 57 swings hit, and the same 90K a hit, he takes 5.13M.

Give Testbear 42% dodge again, but now he takes 39% of each 225K hit (87750) each time. 58 swings hit, and so total he takes 5.09M, which is a greater damage reduction than he got by adding 1% dodge.

Since one can't convert rage to dodge any more than by keeping 67% uptime on SD, I wonder if a different set of stat weights between rage stats and defensive stats would apply once you have enough rage to keep SD on cooldown. Something along the lines of a softcap, although for rage generation taken as a whole rather than any individual stat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Similar Content

    • Shaman: Simple Questions thread, a rule-7-free zone (Mists edition)
      By Jessamy
      This is the thread for simple questions that don't fit anywhere else. If your question applies to one of the existing thread topics, please post it there instead. If it doesn't fit in one of those threads but you expect to generate significant additional discussion, create a new thread. If, however, you have a simple question that only requires a simple answer and don't see a better place to post it, this is your thread.

      If you're struggling to push reasonable dps or keep your teammates alive and you don't know why, start by reading the guide at the start of the thread for your spec. You should verify that the answer isn't already easily available before posting. If you still can't figure out what you're doing wrong, or you didn't understand what you've read, ask here. Maybe someone will help you. But if you don't get a response, tactics like asking again or bumping your post will earn you an infraction.

      Note that all forum rules other than the injunction against hand holding requests still apply in this thread, and that rule still applies everywhere else. If anything I will enforce the rest of the rules even more strictly! Clear communication is important even in short posts. A short "no" or "choose trinket B" response to a question isn't helpful, and will receive an infraction -- briefly explain the why and how of things. The goal is to educate, not babysit.

      I'll repeat the point I made in that last paragraph -- click this link and read the rules before posting, and follow them when you do post.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.